Zombie Tenching

Paul Morley on 31/03/2011 16:32:08

I think I agree with the thrust of this article, but the session I enjoyed yesterday with a chum who caught his pb tench using self hooking methods didn't feel at all soulless. In fact it was splendid to see his face when a few days' fruitless tenching threw up the objective he had planned for. He'd fished hard, thought it through, changed baits, rigs and never let his concentration on the water and his alarms drop. I believe a lot of bites are 'self hooking' anyway. Self-hooking and the paraphernalia that goes with it is a tool, a strategy, how you employ it is up to the angler; it's not always (tho i agree sometimes) mindless.

mol on 31/03/2011 16:59:36

"Now, this was a ‘decent’ bloke: civil, knowledgeable, tidy, sociable, and I hope to cross his path again! But even for THIS nice man, fishing was a purely mechanical, predictable routine you went through to pass a few hours. This chap derived ZERO excitement, fun, satisfaction or spiritual fulfillment from what he was doing. Nothing." Is that your opinion or did he actually say so? Seems strange that he would bother to actually go fishing if he didn't get any excitement, fun or satisfaction from it.

Cliff Hatton 2 on 31/03/2011 21:38:17

Mol: Study my (very accurate) account of events again...how could anyone conclude differently? ---------- Post added at 22:38 ---------- Previous post was at 22:35 ---------- By the way...'Zombie Tenching' was the title I gave this brief article purely for my own reference - it wasn't really meant to head the article, Jeff! No offence meant.

bennygesserit on 31/03/2011 21:46:29

There is still skill involved in zombie fishing , effectively you are laying a trap for a wild animal and you have to present that trap in the right place and in the right way, It must be skilfull as I have a right job making self hooking rigs work. I must admit though I prefer the excitement of seeing that float go down.

Jeff Woodhouse on 31/03/2011 21:48:48

Sorry Cliff, that's how I received it. It seems to fit and one of my mates is the same pretty much with carp. He starts at 7 in the morning, recasts around 12 and packs up and goes home at 5. Never changes bait, never adds any groundbait, PVA, add-ons, and never ever changes his rig for a new one he's learnt because he never reads up on new techniques. He does like catching his fish, but if it's less than 20 he speaks disaparagingly of it - "Yeh, I had one, but it was only low teens." even though it could have been the most beautifuly marked fish in the lake. When I first saw yours, Cliff, I though it was going to be along the lines of one I read many years ago about float fishing for tench when the angler sat with eyes transfixed (zombie like) on his float waitign for the slightest of all movements. Slowly he would tamp the burning tobacco in his pipe, his finger numbed to the burning pain. Etc. if you see what I mean. That was tench fishing.....

Cliff Hatton 2 on 31/03/2011 23:21:25

Benny:You've made the very point I've been banging on about for years, mate! It's 'trapping' they do now - not angling. I concede that as a trapper it is possible to be very skilful, but without those aspects of the sport seen as fundamental by Martin Gay and a huge number of others, it ain't angling and should, strictly speaking, be re-classified. Thinking about it, this really is a tricky philosophical problem, isn't it? We can't un-invent these 'new' deadly-efficient methods, and to revert to what I see as 'proper' fishing could well see a drop in captures; this would inevitably lead to anglers becoming disgruntled and going back to trapping. I think, perhaps, the only answer is a time-machine, a device which would take us back to the blissful days when the ONLY way to put a fish on the bank was to be a good angler.

mol on 01/04/2011 12:36:37

Mol: Study my (very accurate) account of events again...how could anyone conclude differently? Right ok. So it's just your opinion, influenced by your dislike of bolt rigs.

Cliff Hatton 2 on 01/04/2011 13:49:23

Sorry, Mol, but I think you're missing my main point. Sure the article is predicated on the bolt-rig but its main aim is to reveal the utterly debilitating affect it has on the very reason we go fishing - assuming, of course, that excitement, tension and enjoyment still constitute that reason; if they don't please tell me what other motivation there might be. I can understand any opposition to my contention because, well, the self-hooking rig works and puts fish on the bank, but I beg you to at least dally with the globally accepted, centuries old wisdom of anglers who fish because it can be exciting! As yet, hunters don't use heat-seeking bullets and archers don't use guided arrows; why not? Because they're aware that they could miss - and that's the whole point. When, through their skill and judgement, they succeed, they deservedly rejoice and manifestly revel in the moment. My friend on the lake last weekend couldn't have cared less...and I think that's tragic.

the indifferent crucian on 01/04/2011 13:55:28

I think this shows how different people get different forms of pleasure from different forms of fishing. The 'Zombie' tencher must have been getting something from it, otherwise why bother?...perhaps the Mother-in-Law was visiting? Surely in such a pastime as ours ( I refuse to call it a sport,... sports make you sweaty) there is room to allow for others taking their pleasure in a way different to us? Whether it's a bloke in a wide-brimmed hat fishing with a cane rod and a centrepin, or it's a man in a tent listening to the cricket on an earphone behind a row of rods on a buzz bar, we're all trying to fool fish into taking a bait. If you start to criticise an individual method you're opening your self up to an equal ammount of criticism from those who fish a different way to you. Personally I love to float fish. It's pretty well all I do, so consequently it's pretty much all I can do. But I know there are times when my insistence in sticking to it is costing me fish. I bought an alarm last year..perhaps it's time to put a battery in it?

Poshpaul (Angling Trust and PaSC) on 01/04/2011 14:11:27

I found it an interesting perspective from Cliff. To all intent and purpose I assumed his reference to the techniques the guy was using was "a vehicle" for his main point about the need, or otherwise, for sensation, a thrill, a tingling in the spine, gut wrenching fear..or just an infusion of joy about the setting, the wildlife, the very fact of being there. Some demonstration, some slight twitch that showed a passion for angling. There was a reason for the naming of that series. Cliff felt that, however decent a cove the chap was, he couldn't detect the slightest scintilla of evidence of feeling for what he was doing. That was the reason he asked the simple question; why do you bother? Of course I could be barking up completely the wrong tree...and no doubt will be put right if I am.

little oik on 01/04/2011 16:24:12

To me the clue is in the title .There is so much more in my mind that can be appreciated than the catching of fish whilst out on the bank .Some of my most enjoyable trips have been spent fishing for Tench but blanking . Its the is the green you see the same shade that I see. Wouldn't life be boring if we all thought and did the same :)

mol on 01/04/2011 16:28:21

Sorry, Mol, but I think you're missing my main point. Sure the article is predicated on the bolt-rig but its main aim is to reveal the utterly debilitating affect it has on the very reason we go fishing - assuming, of course, that excitement, tension and enjoyment still constitute that reason; if they don't please tell me what other motivation there might be. I can understand any opposition to my contention because, well, the self-hooking rig works and puts fish on the bank, but I beg you to at least dally with the globally accepted, centuries old wisdom of anglers who fish because it can be exciting! As yet, hunters don't use heat-seeking bullets and archers don't use guided arrows; why not? Because they're aware that they could miss - and that's the whole point. When, through their skill and judgement, they succeed, they deservedly rejoice and manifestly revel in the moment. My friend on the lake last weekend couldn't have cared less...and I think that's tragic. The point I'm trying to make is that your opinion is your opinion, the fella must have found something in because he does fish so no doubt his opinion is different to yours. I find it slightly snobbish that you look down on his technique and form of pleasure presuming that yours is infinitely superior due to your perception that its more difficult and involving. Your assumption that the fella got nothing from catching the best bag of spring tench you've seen, which I do agree is tragic if correct, because he was bolt rigging is just that, an assumption based upon your dislike of bolt rigs. I fish bolt rigs for big carp, I also quivertip and float fish on both rivers and stillwaters and I find them both exciting, rewarding and enjoyable but different. Long may that continue.

cg74 on 02/04/2011 19:22:57

Oh what a truly diverse sport we participate in. My mistake, what a truly divisive sport we participate in.... Carp fishing has tackle tarting, barbel angling has its retro floppy hatted brigade, seemingly tenching now has an element of method snobbery.:( Comical though, the only ones berating others tactics are those wearing blinkers, eh Cliff?;) There was naive old me thinking we fished for our own enjoyment, now it seems we can only be gaining enjoyment if we use others purist styled methods, hmm, so much for each to their own.:confused:

bennygesserit on 02/04/2011 21:27:19

I know what you mean about divisive I don't think its intended that way , its kind of like idle gossip , My son and I often speculate about people who go to france and wait 2 days for a bite and wonder how they can do that in the same way that they ptobably wouldn't sit on the side of the canal in the summer catching roach off the top. It looks divisive to talk about how other people fish but its just human nature to speculate

itsfishingnotcatching on 04/04/2011 11:49:08

Having never caught a tench before yesterday when I caught two, they fell to the same method, (waggler,with three maggotts on a No.14 hook) as carp, roach, a perch, a skimmer, a dace and loads of rudd. For me it's the dipping float and the anticipation of what the next fish will be. At the end of the day though, it's each to their own and who am I to criticise? The diversity is there to make us all think about how we can improve the way we fish and different methods to try.

Philip on 05/04/2011 06:03:38

I don’t like to appear critical of someone’s efforts on writing an article..after all Chris took the trouble to do it so should be applauded for that. However, I started reading it with great interest expecting a nice account of Martin Gay the angler and it simply turned into basically someone having a rant about bolt rigs. We all have our own opinions on these things but I do wonder and wish that many of the people who criticize the bolt rig even understand what it is. I”ll give one example taken from the article:- When a run eventually occurred – sometimes after 14 hours of freezing darkness – Martin would poise himself to strike, rod-handle gripped tightly, line hooked over clenched index-finger. Having the bottle-top hit the rod was not enough for Martin; with nerves of steel he’d wait until the line was cutting-up from the water, the rod-tip bending and the line pulling on his finger, then he would strike! To me Martin Gay WAS FISHING A BOLT RIG. Judging by that paragraph the fish was already hooked and the additional strike was incidental and pointless. I am not sure about Martin, but many others doing the same are simply deluding themselves that they are fishing a running lead when in fact they are fishing a self hooking rig. They then put themselves through unnecessary hardship like 14 hours of shivering cold staring at a bobbin because they wrongly think its more skillful.

the indifferent crucian on 05/04/2011 06:43:19

In my limited experience of this method, the strike is not incidental. A carp runs in fear at the weight it has detected, and for some reason carp do this with their mouths tightly shut...hence the run. After a few seconds the fish opens its mouth, perhaps to breathe, exhausted after the initial run?, and it can then spit the hook...hence Mr. Gay's risking a loss by striking so late. If I've fumbled, got the line in a tangle on a rod rest or just taken too long I have always missed the fish....perhaps it's just clumsy me? (By the way, his name is Cliff, not Chris;)) The more I think about it, the more I realise that if so many anglers enjoy this type of fishing, it must be me that is missing the point somehow. To me it felt like hunting, setting traps rather than angling...but I think I shall have to try it all one more time to see if it 'gets' me. It might have sounded like I was disagreeing with Cliff before, but actually I am in agreement...I feel it's not true fishing, sitting behind alarms waiting for a bolt rig to do the initial work so you can fish three rods and cover a larger area. But with so many people doing it, it must be me that is out of step? Same as it ever was.:o

sagalout on 05/04/2011 07:53:39

First of all, thank you Cliff the article. I feel it's not true fishing, sitting behind alarms.....I wonder what "true fishing" is? Is it a branch, the ligament from a deer, a hook shaped from bone? Maybe it is a spear? Ah but is that a wooden spear, a wooden spear with a charcoal tip, a flint tip, a bronze tip, etc. It is very obvious on these forums and across the world in general, that "if you don't do as I do you are wrong" .

the indifferent crucian on 05/04/2011 08:23:01

I hope it didn't sound like I was criticising other anglers or their methods, Sagalout? I did say 'I feel', meaning my own personal feelings about the method, and I then went on to say that perhaps it was me 'missing something' and that I would have to try it again to see if that was the case. At no time did I suggest anyone would be wrong to fish differently to me. In fact fishing in any way different to me would probably be a good idea, judging by my recent results! 'Real fishing' to me is watching a float. Waiting for it to move, sometimes even wrongly imagining that it has...then disbelieving it when it finally does and striking so slow I miss an easy one. Yes, definitely don't fish like me................:)

mol on 05/04/2011 08:29:59

In my limited experience of this method, the strike is not incidental. A carp runs in fear at the weight it has detected, and for some reason carp do this with their mouths tightly shut...hence the run. After a few seconds the fish opens its mouth, perhaps to breathe, exhausted after the initial run?, and it can then spit the hook...hence Mr. Gay's risking a loss by striking so late. I'm not sure I agree. I've done very well fishing a completely slack line with a running rig. So slack I've probably got 70 yards of line out whilst only fishing 50 yards from the bank, the line loops down between the rod rings. There is no weight to pull the hook home or indeed trigger a run from the carp /tench /bream /grass carp, I'm sure a sharp hook sticking in their mouth is scary enough. The runs are phenomenal and the carp manage to hook themselves, even if it takes 20 seconds to get to the rod in the night the fish hasn't fallen off, it makes no sense how they're hooked and I don't why they're hooked but I know the technique works very well. There seems to be alot of mis-conceptions about bolt rig fishing from those that don't practise it that it takes no skill and all fish that pick up the bait are hooked, that really isn't the case.

the indifferent crucian on 05/04/2011 10:34:07

Heck no, look at all the designs of carp hooks and rigs just to make up for the number of runs that don't result in a fish in the net. And yet, if it is the feel of the hook that makes them bolt for it, and you may well be right on this, come come so many carp then go on to lose the hook, you'd think they couldn't do that if they'd hooked themselves. It's interesting that you're getting such runs on an unweighted rig, though presumably to have cast 50 yards you are using some weight to get there? And a running rig only runs so far before it becomes a bolt rig, surely?

mol on 05/04/2011 11:52:28

Heck no, look at all the designs of carp hooks and rigs just to make up for the number of runs that don't result in a fish in the net. And yet, if it is the feel of the hook that makes them bolt for it, and you may well be right on this, come come so many carp then go on to lose the hook, you'd think they couldn't do that if they'd hooked themselves. It's interesting that you're getting such runs on an unweighted rig, though presumably to have cast 50 yards you are using some weight to get there? And a running rig only runs so far before it becomes a bolt rig, surely? You have to use a running rig with a slack line. With a semi fixed bolt rig if the fish swims towards you all that would happen is the line would go slack but as everything is already slack you wouldn't see anything. With a running rig then the lead act as a pivot so no matter which way the fish goes you always get a positive run. Yes, you use lead to get the distance but as there is 20 yards of slack the fish has to run 20 yards to pick up the slack line before any weight comes into play to set the hook. It's probably more of a running rig than a running rig fished on a quiver tip with a tight line. I think the problem with a traditional bolt rig is the short hooklink and the heavy weight, particularly with big fish. If the fish shakes it head you've got a heavy lead bouncing around inchs from a lightly nicked hook hold, the result is the hook pulls, perhaps it happens often and people claim they're liners? If the fish sets off at the rate of knots then the weight improves the hook hold and then it's improved further still by the baitrunner. I never strike, the fish is already hooked. IMO a sudden amount of force applied to the hook hold via a strike is more likely to enlarge the hole the hook made resulting in the fish dropping off than rather than improving the hook hold. I wonder if the key to a bolt rig isn't the weight but a sharp exposed hook with a hair rigged bait. Bottom feeding fish feed by sucking and blowing, the hook is sucked in and drops to the bottom of the mouth as the hair allows the bait and hook to seperate. When the fish blows out the hook is pushed into the fishes mouth by the water exiting the fishes mouth, maybe its the bait on the hair exiting the mouth that pulls the hook home? The sensation of a hook causes the fish to panic and run

Jeff Woodhouse on 05/04/2011 11:55:55

A few points. First of all, the article is based on Cliff's opinions, naturally, and I think he expressed them rather well even though I wouldn't agree with everything he says. He has, however, staked his colours to the mast, as they say, and others are welcome to stake their colours similarly. We welcome all articles. I'd agree with Cliff on his last point about the attitude of the angler, not getting excited by his catches, for I have met the same people. One guy was on the Thames many years ago catching perch on the next peg downstream. They were only small perch, perhaps 5 or 6 ounces, and he brought one up to me "Look at that. Little thing like that. I'm plagued with them." and he cast it back in the river like it was a stone or a piece of waste. I promptly reminded him of his attitude and to take more care returning ALL fish in future or (as I was then secretary) he wouldn't be getting a ticket next year. IF that was Cliff's main point I am fully beside him. If his point was to criticize bolt rigs and alarms, then we have a difference of opinion, but that's all it is. Ron Clay should be here to answer for the Bolt Rig as he introduced it to this country. :rolleyes: :eek: :wh As for fish behaviour, many will pick up a bait or food item and immediately turn as if to say, "Got mine, now you get yours." This is an instinctive reaction particularly where other fish are feeding in the same area, but that alone doesn't guarantee a successful hooking. The fish may then feel a prick (careful Woody!) from the hook point and weight and bolt, hence the name of the rig. That will introduce the hook point into its lip, but there is still the chance the fish can throw the hook, even using the weight against you. You therefore have to strike if only lightly or tighten up severely, whichever desciption you prefer, to ensure that the bulk of the weight of the fish is now pulling against the bend of the hook ensuring that point is well home. The question of 'is it fishing?', well of course it is if it catches a fish. It all depends on whether it pulls your chain. Hence some barbel anglers will go 'carbelling', my own style is not too unlike that although I do hold the rod usually, whereas some prefer the rolling meat technique. It's all a matter of choice and preference, but I get just as much excitement out of watching a quiver tip bend into a nice little rudd or bream. Some won't.

noknot on 05/04/2011 12:29:03

Thanks for the article Cliff, It has certainly woken up the forum! I used to fish solely for Tench before moving on to Carp, and caught a few too! The main methods were the "lift" Swing tip and later the Q Tip. I remember one day on Lydd long lake, which held some superb Tench to over 6lbs + which were big fish at that time, I would get many dropped takes on the swing tip, to fast to hit! And a guy came and sat for a chat, another missed take, this was on a basic running rig set up, My new mentor said do you have a shot............ which was placed 6" behind the lead, from then every take was a reel churner, my first encounter with a "Bolt rig" and Boy was it effective!!! A few years later after fishing for Carp, I had a dabble with The Tinca's again in short evening sessions, using the Q Tip and a light link ledger set up fish the marginal shelf, very effective indeed with hardly any missed takes, so both methods worked very well for me! So this brings us the point of what is a bolt rig? IMO most set ups are, even if the intention is not to be. Take a pure running rig as an example fished on a Q Tip, there is no slack line at all and the rig will increase resistance from the time the hooklink is extended, so not much different to using a fixed lead set up for Carp is it? As for the "Zombie Angler" well I would say that we are all different, just because he did not dance around, or jump in the air with joy, does not mean he was not buzzing inside! I have seen people Catch some big old fish, with apparently little emotion, but hey, each to their own as they say, just get out of angling what you want and let others get on with their angling. :w

sagalout on 05/04/2011 12:56:21

I hope it didn't sound like I was criticising other anglers or their methods, Sagalout?Sorry Indie, I was questioning the phrase in a wry manner, not having a pop at you (or anyone else, living, dead, undead, or in any other state intentional or not). Sorry if it came across personal.

bennygesserit on 05/04/2011 17:00:19

Forgive my limited experience , is that why when fishing softer elastic on a pole the fish often don't even seem to realise they are hooked ? Having lost a few fish on heavier elastic the advice I was given was the more you pull ( careful Woody ) the more the fish will instinctively pull back.

Philip on 06/04/2011 18:37:44

Some good stuff being said here. I want to comment on the point about slack lines as I think its an interesting subject. First point is that its difficult to talk in absolutes because there are so many variables involved. However I would say this :- Even if your fishing what appears to be a totally slack line as Mol describes the line can still be running across things like weed, stones and whatever else. This means that the line itself is creating an inertia which in some cases can be enough to prick the fish. In other cases even if the line is truly slack, at some moment in the carps resistance free travel after picking up the bait and hook it will encounter resistance. If the hook is still in its mouth and the hook point nicks in, the fish will scream off. One thing I believe is that some pressured Carp that are used to being angled for can be conditioned to be ultra cautious in the immediate vicinity of a bait. As the majority of anglers tend to fish with hooklinks of say 6 to 12 inches the Carp have learnt to be wary in this area around a bait. I have even watched them do this…the fish picks up bait then backs off very slowly, inching back with its fins hardly moving, its literally like its testing if there is resistance from a lead close by. Once it reaches what it thinks is safe territory, say after 2 foot of travel, it deems the bait to be “safe” and swims off happily at normal speed. Unfortunately for the Carp 10 yards along the route –WHACK!- ..the line pulls tight and its hooked. Its totally unexpected and the fish absolutely screams off. Hence a screaming take on a totally slack line. This is actually one reason I really like fishing slack lines if I can. Basically your doing something different from the norm and the Carp does not have a point of reference to deal with it and gets caught out time and time again. Of course once everyone starts doing it your back to the drawing board because the Carp will wise up to it. Anyway this is just scratching the surface of what is a very complicated subject with thousands upon thousands of permutations.

bennygesserit on 06/04/2011 19:16:35

Interesting post Philip I never realised , different to your point though, how fast a fish can spit a bait out till I tried dapping for them at a commercial , they took the bait and spat it out all in one fluid motion. Also re them backing off the bait , being a new angler I thought , a semi fixed bolt rig guarranteed a take but on commercials often the tip of the rod trembles and then nothing , this seems very different from the flick of what I think is a line bite. Last summer I fished a carp only pool and got lots of nudges on the float but no bites , it got pretty frustrating but I spoke to the baliff and switched from a .5g float dotted right down to the lightest float I had which barely took a few no. 11 stotts then I started catching.

Jeff Woodhouse on 06/04/2011 19:39:38

the advice I was given was the more you pull ( careful Woody ) the more the fish will instinctively pull back. That's sort of true Benny. What I've found with the pole is, if the fish goes on a run, stick the pole tip under the water and the fish will simply come back. I don't know why, but it nearly always does.

bennygesserit on 06/04/2011 19:46:50

That's sort of true Benny. What I've found with the pole is, if the fish goes on a run, stick the pole tip under the water and the fish will simply come back. I don't know why, but it nearly always does. Do you think that kind of takes the fun out of it though ? Leading them gently in ?

Tim Ridge on 06/04/2011 21:57:42

I don’t like to appear critical of someone’s efforts on writing an article..after all Chris took the trouble to do it so should be applauded for that. However, I started reading it with great interest expecting a nice account of Martin Gay the angler and it simply turned into basically someone having a rant about bolt rigs. We all have our own opinions on these things but I do wonder and wish that many of the people who criticize the bolt rig even understand what it is. I”ll give one example taken from the article:- When a run eventually occurred – sometimes after 14 hours of freezing darkness – Martin would poise himself to strike, rod-handle gripped tightly, line hooked over clenched index-finger. Having the bottle-top hit the rod was not enough for Martin; with nerves of steel he’d wait until the line was cutting-up from the water, the rod-tip bending and the line pulling on his finger, then he would strike! To me Martin Gay WAS FISHING A BOLT RIG. Judging by that paragraph the fish was already hooked and the additional strike was incidental and pointless. I am not sure about Martin, but many others doing the same are simply deluding themselves that they are fishing a running lead when in fact they are fishing a self hooking rig. They then put themselves through unnecessary hardship like 14 hours of shivering cold staring at a bobbin because they wrongly think its more skillful. Absolutely 100% accurate regarding the fact that the fish were hooking thmeselves. I've watched this happen on several occasions. Unfortunately the sort of set up is a rather inneficient (self hooking) rig of this type and for every fish hooked there are likely to be ten or even fifty fish that pick up the bait and don't give any indication of having done so unless the angler is in a position to watch the bait.. I challenge the traditionalists to set themselve up in a swim where the tench can be seen (I'd advise choosing a very easy water) and try this approach. Even when float fishing a very large proportion of the tench we hook, prick themselves initially.

Jeff Woodhouse on 06/04/2011 22:15:32

Do you think that kind of takes the fun out of it though ? Leading them gently in ? No, it saves putting undue pressure on them especially with strong elastics like 20s+. I've never used more than a 12 even though I have a 14 loaded somewhere, I've never used it. My standard kits are no 4s and no 6s for smaller fish. One of the waters I guest on during the close season has a big head of carp mainly around the 8-10lbs mark. Most have ripped mouths and it's largely due to strong elastic and bullying them in during matches. It only takes a little time and skill to bring them nicely to the net without damage.

bennygesserit on 07/04/2011 05:30:35

No, it saves putting undue pressure on them especially with strong elastics like 20s+. I've never used more than a 12 even though I have a 14 loaded somewhere, I've never used it. My standard kits are no 4s and no 6s for smaller fish. One of the waters I guest on during the close season has a big head of carp mainly around the 8-10lbs mark. Most have ripped mouths and it's largely due to strong elastic and bullying them in during matches. It only takes a little time and skill to bring them nicely to the net without damage. Yes I think the more I learn to fish the more I agree with that. I caught a very large tench ( for me ) which took me in the weeds rather than heave it out I pointed the pole tip in the water in fact I put the tip right onto the bottom and waited and the fish came out.

peter crabtree on 07/04/2011 12:14:45

I think submerging your pole confuses the fish because it is being pulled along not upwards, also submergerged elastic becomes less resistant. A soon as you lift the elastic back up the fish pulls hard again and at some point you have to to land the fish, when if your elastic is too light can become tricky. Blaming match anglers for torn mouths grates a little with me as well. I think a big forged hook and a 2oz lead bouncing about 6 inches from the fishes mouth may have something to do with it...............

Jeff Woodhouse on 07/04/2011 12:42:00

Blaming match anglers for torn mouths grates a little with me as well.I know what you mean Simon, but it became evident that the problem was caused by that method. The club has now banned floating baits - why, I cannot fathom. The damage is always to the scissors and line cutting through the soft parts. This is caused by the bait being too far inside the mouth and the fine lines comign out of the side. The club bans boilies and bolt rigs, but I proved with six fish on the same day that the hook ended up clean in the lip and the braided line was nowhere near any other part of the mouth. What made matters worse was the hauling in of fish and if one was lost or dropped, heavier elastic was called for. Sorry, but that was the case and sadly, it still goes on. A bit of patience and slightly weaker elastics does help.

noknot on 08/04/2011 07:10:54

Blaming match anglers for torn mouths grates a little with me as well. I think a big forged hook and a 2oz lead bouncing about 6 inches from the fishes mouth may have something to do with it............... Erm, Thorp Lea ring any bells..........

the blanker on 08/04/2011 07:38:50

Erm, Thorp Lea ring any bells.......... drayton res also,some are in a terrible mess.

Ray Daywalker Clarke on 08/04/2011 08:08:49

Well for what its worth, I think Barbless hooks are C**P and are the cause of alot of damage to fish mouths. The other side is some anglers not knowing how to unhook fish in the correct way. Young anglers coming into angling just dont seem to be shown how to unhook fish, and i am not saying it's just young anglers, because we know it's not.

the blanker on 08/04/2011 15:11:50

Well for what its worth, I think Barbless hooks are C**P and are the cause of alot of damage to fish mouths. The other side is some anglers not knowing how to unhook fish in the correct way. Young anglers coming into angling just dont seem to be shown how to unhook fish, and i am not saying it's just young anglers, because we know it's not. i wont use barbless hooks as i agree with ray that they can do damage to fish, some fisheries are now banning barbless hooks,because of damage? i have to say though that its rare i use very small hooks perhaps its the bigger size barbless that can do damage.

noknot on 08/04/2011 15:56:57

There is only one way to un-hook a fish, that is the total reverse to how it went in!

Cliff Hatton 2 on 12/04/2011 22:35:54

Philip: I assure you - I absolutely assure you - Martin was NOT unwittingly using a bolt-rig, and although your theory was not intended as an unfavourable criticism of Martin or his methods, he would be quite 'put-out' by any suggestion that he was! You see, Martin (or me) NEVER used hair-rigs i.e. he never used an exposed hook. He believed the hook should be concealed within the bait and that it was the (good) angler's responsibility and SKILL to time the strike and to manually PULL the hook THROUGH the very firm boilie and into the fish's lip. Martin knew that it was normally pointless - or, at least, chancy - to strike a run before everything was manifestly 'in place'; that was why I wrote how he had 'nerves of steel' - after 12...18...20hrs waiting for one precious run he refused to strike until everything was tight; had he NOT struck at this point, Philip, the fish would not have hooked itself because the hook was deeply embedded within the bait. If the dolly hit the rod but the line failed to tighten further, he didn't strike for fear of spooking an already wary fish, and THIS is the all-important point I'm desperate to get across! The way Martin and thousands more of us fished BBR (Before Bolt-Rig) was inherently 'risky', uncertain, and DEPENDENT on us getting it right! I implore the bolt-riggers here to ponder my words rather than skim over them; try doing a 180 degree change of perception and imagine how exciting and SATISFYING it would be to deploy YOUR knowledge of how fish behave, then to use that knowledge and experience to put that fish on the bank. Think about it, my friends! When you've been awoken from your slumbers to reel in a 10lb tench you've no idea how cagily, how infuriatingly, how frustratingly that fish had been behaving before it deemed the bait safe enough to run off with! All you've done is get up and reel a fish in! I really, really have questioned the wisdom of banging my point home on this subject but I do so because 40 years of seeking big fish have shown me the true spirit of pitting one's wits against those of the fish and I know that to cut huge corners off the whole experience DOES, in fact, diminish the raison detre for going fishing. Believe me.

geoffmaynard on 13/04/2011 08:31:13

Slightly OT here (but someone else started it). I believe the Thorpe Lea fish all came from Drayton to start with - and they all had damaged mouths when they arrived. So, whoever was fishing Drayton - with whatever method/tackle - were responsible. Mouth damage is not caused by barbed or barbless hooks, it is caused by anglers using poor unhooking methods. Even bent hook rigs were not as bad as they were made out to be, when they were fished with barbless hooks. The argument of 2oz leads bouncing about 6" behind the fish don't work for me either - surely we apply a lot more pressure than that whilst playing a fish.

noknot on 13/04/2011 10:14:37

" I believe the Thorpe Lea fish all came from Drayton to start with" Correct Geoff, they were butchered by the Match anglers on heavy pole tactics and heavy elastics!

Ray Daywalker Clarke on 13/04/2011 14:45:35

Philip: I assure you - I absolutely assure you - Martin was NOT unwittingly using a bolt-rig, and although your theory was not intended as an unfavourable criticism of Martin or his methods, he would be quite 'put-out' by any suggestion that he was! You see, Martin (or me) NEVER used hair-rigs i.e. he never used an exposed hook. He believed the hook should be concealed within the bait and that it was the (good) angler's responsibility and SKILL to time the strike and to manually PULL the hook THROUGH the very firm boilie and into the fish's lip. Martin knew that it was normally pointless - or, at least, chancy - to strike a run before everything was manifestly 'in place'; that was why I wrote how he had 'nerves of steel' - after 12...18...20hrs waiting for one precious run he refused to strike until everything was tight; had he NOT struck at this point, Philip, the fish would not have hooked itself because the hook was deeply embedded within the bait. If the dolly hit the rod but the line failed to tighten further, he didn't strike for fear of spooking an already wary fish, and THIS is the all-important point I'm desperate to get across! The way Martin and thousands more of us fished BBR (Before Bolt-Rig) was inherently 'risky', uncertain, and DEPENDENT on us getting it right! I implore the bolt-riggers here to ponder my words rather than skim over them; try doing a 180 degree change of perception and imagine how exciting and SATISFYING it would be to deploy YOUR knowledge of how fish behave, then to use that knowledge and experience to put that fish on the bank. Think about it, my friends! When you've been awoken from your slumbers to reel in a 10lb tench you've no idea how cagily, how infuriatingly, how frustratingly that fish had been behaving before it deemed the bait safe enough to run off with! All you've done is get up and reel a fish in! I really, really have questioned the wisdom of banging my point home on this subject but I do so because 40 years of seeking big fish have shown me the true spirit of pitting one's wits against those of the fish and I know that to cut huge corners off the whole experience DOES, in fact, diminish the raison detre for going fishing. Believe me. I doesnt matter if you sleep for 24 hours or sit there watching a float for 24 hours, you still have to present the bait correctly for the fish to take the bait. It's each to their own, angling would be very boring if we all did the same thing.

jimmy crackedcorn on 13/04/2011 16:48:11

Just noticed a typo on your post cliff. It should read "MY raisin detre " not "THE raison d'être ". Otherwise you are assuming, nay, dictating how and why people go fishing and I'm sure you don't mean that. Btw the bloke who didn't get excited about catching a large tench. Does he get visibly excited over anything in public ? It would need a substantial lottery win for me to get publicly cockerhoop, I just dont do it. Doesn't mean I'm not inwardly happy.

Cliff Hatton 2 on 13/04/2011 17:19:34

"It doesnt matter if you sleep for 24 hours or sit there watching a float for 24 hours, you still have to present the bait correctly for the fish to take the bait. It's each to their own, angling would be very boring if we all did the same thing" And on that note I'm leaving this thread!

noknot on 14/04/2011 10:23:23

4oz lead with a hair rig fished bolt styleeeee, no one side hooks baits today! Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeppppppppppppppppppppppp:wh

Zombie Tenching

By the Same Author

Rate this article

Comments (47 posted):

Tagged as:

Related news

More from General

Follow FishingMagic!