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Paying your Dues?

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Thankfully not all youngsters are 'off the shelf' anglers with 'all the gear and no idea' - but most are and it's killing angling as I know it... Thankfully not all youngsters are 'off the shelf' anglers with 'all the gear and no idea' - but most are and it's killing angling as I know it...

Mark Barrett is “pretty bloody mad” about the state of angling in the UK – and it’s mostly down to carp and carp anglers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

‘Paying your dues’ - a common and clichéd expression I am sure you will agree but just exactly what has it got to do with angling? Well, in this article I will try to explain why I think that ‘paying your dues’ - or rather not paying them - is polluting angling.


Let’s go with the original context first off. Whilst I think that there is some tremendous value in angling, usually offered by local clubs run by enthusiastic volunteers, there are also some tremendous, for want of a better phrase, rip offs too.


If you look at some of the top day ticket waters in the country you could be paying anything from £25 to £40 a day (and above) for the ‘pleasure’ of casting a line in the water; but what exactly do you get for that money? I have visited a number of the most expensive day ticket venues and have been left rather underwhelmed by the entire experience. Okay you may argue that the fish have to be there in the first instance to get the anglers in, but sadly in 99.9% of cases the fish we are talking about are carp.


Carp fishing, whilst it may have been the saviour of the tackle industry (something I wholeheartedly disagree with), has also fuelled the fire and made both the actual act of angling more expensive and spawned a beast that is rapidly in danger of eating itself. Some would say that it has also made tackle more expensive, but here I disagree. My first carbon rod I bought in the early eighties and cost the princely sum of £55 and was a float rod. At the time I wasn’t working as I was still at school and that represented many hours spent on the chicken farm that I worked on after school, plus paper rounds to buy. When I left school six or seven years later my first wage packet was £65, so you can see that it was a huge slice of your weekly salary.


With the national average wage now being about £300 per week, you can pick up a nice float rod for the same money, only this time it would only be around one sixth of your week’s wages. If you look at reels they have got even cheaper with a decent float fishing reel now available for £15-£20. A similar budget reel in the eighties would have cost you best part of ten pounds and were usually really crap!


Going back to the cost of day tickets though here the cost has spiralled out of control, but there are a number of anglers that are prepared to pay these exorbitant prices, why? Well here I am going to be somewhat controversial and say again that it’s because these anglers don’t want to pay their dues. Take a walk around any of these waters and you will see a high proportion of ‘out of the packet’ anglers equipped with all the latest gear straight off the tackle shop shelves. All they see written about is twenties this or thirties that and they see these waters as a shortcut to catching fish of that size without serving time on other waters and building up their experience and watercraft. No, it’s far easier to chuck a load of money at it and get on the waters that they see on TV and if they chuck in enough of the spod mix that they have seen used by the anglers on TV they will surely catch... Of course some do, but far more fail as eBay bears testament to with the amount of full sets of carp gear that are to be found on there.


This over emphasis on carp is slowly killing angling as I know it and to be honest I am pretty bloody mad about it!


There is an insidious side to carp fishing that is making us all into carp anglers because that’s the only fish that ever gets stocked these days. Add to that the fact that carpers are very good at getting their voice heard and you have a juggernaut that takes some stopping.

They are the only fish that ever get stocked - and I'm pretty bloody mad about it


Take the recent debate about otters and the formation of the ‘predation action group’. Now when it was predominantly barbel and chub that were disappearing down the otters’ throats there was a cry from those directly affected, but it was a fairly muted voice. As soon as the carp of this country started to get targeted the usual suspects came out to bang their drums and get their publicity - for themselves or their company - and we have the formation of another angling group at a time when we are being told that the Angling Trust should be the voice of angling, well which one is it, it cannot be both?


I don’t think that anyone has a problem with paying for their sport if they feel that they get value for money, but this varies greatly from water to water. I have been to some of the biggest named fisheries in the country and had to slog through thick mud for bloody miles with gear and yet I’ve been to others where vehicles can get close to the pegs or there are decent pathways around the lake. You would think that the latter would be the more expensive, but sadly the opposite was true, that water charged £28 a day to fish, piss poor value for money in my opinion. I wish this was a one off but in my experience day ticket waters are the worst offenders. The better waters tend to be those that are either syndicate or run in a different way from commercial day tickets. The anglers that fish these waters tend to develop a rapport with the water and care about it greatly and will often undertake works like this for free, or as a part of membership.


The worst offenders of all though are those that have jumped on the carp bandwagon, increasingly catfish too, and just dumped a load of fish of unknown origin into a tiny pond and are charging anglers handsomely for the privilege of fishing for them. There is a water close to my home that is less than 100 yards long and forty yards wide, but holds a 100lb plus catfish in it amongst many others! Now to me that is tantamount to cruelty, almost as cruel as charging anglers £15 a day to fish there, not me though, personally I won’t accommodate this - the worst type of fishery - by my presence or money.   


The final thing I want to cover is the non payment of dues; what do I mean by this? Well as someone with a keen interest in the angling media, as both a consumer and contributor, it staggers me how in the last few years the angling trade and media have developed a fascination with anglers of, shall we say, a tender age?


Now I can kind of see why the angling media has to embrace modern mediums such as social networking – Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, but to me that’s where for the majority of these anglers it ought to stop. I am not meaning here to demean their efforts but in reality very few anglers in their teens or early twenties have the experience to be able to instruct others, especially those older than them. There are always going to be exceptions of course. Much in the same way that the likes of Sachin Tendulkar or Wayne Rooney represented their countries in cricket and football whilst still teenagers there will be some anglers whose catches mark them out from others, but some of the guys these days have pretty unremarkable catches, even amongst their peers. There is, as they say, no substitute for experience and to my mind it’s here where the majority of sponsorships/ consultancies/ etc should be headed.


Big pike in good company - more of that for me please!From a personal point of view I have been sponsored in the past, and am currently, however before I got any sponsorship I had been writing regularly in several different publications for over ten years and in that time I had to get better at both my writing but in particularly at my photography. I worked bloody hard at what I had produced and on the back of this I got asked to promote a couple of company’s products. It wouldn’t take a genius to see where I had paid my dues and where I offered the tackle trade something in the way of promotion, but I can’t get my head around what value a 13-year-old or even younger angler will give to any company, who is going to listen to them?


In essence all these wannabees are doing is driving down the possibility of anyone making a living from angling, including themselves ultimately. I often get asked by people how to get sponsored or how to make a living from angling and I have to say that these days I would never advise a youngster to look at making a living from going fishing; it’s just not really possible in the 21st Century. My advice is always the same and that is to try and get a set of skills that means that you could work for a company in the angling industry, but forget the idea about being paid a living wage to go fishing, or even to a point in writing about it, because it’s just no longer a reality. Maybe most people think that’s a good thing, but I think that every sport needs its ‘heroes’ otherwise the next generation have no one to look up to.


I certainly had my fishing hero as a kid, that being Dick Walker, the same as I did for all of the other sports that I played. In cricket it was Ian Botham, in football it was a guy called Tony Coton who played in goal for my team Watford. It helped to keep my interest in both sports in much the same way that Dick Walker’s writing did for angling. And if you think that isn’t really relevant today take a look at the crowds of kids around the likes of Matt Hayes, Mick Brown or John Wilson when they are at a show, it’s still very much the same as it’s ever been.


So having blown off steam, what or how would I change things? Well here’s my attempt at making angling the common man’s sport once again.


• Ban the stocking of any more carp into this country for at least twenty years.

• Create more balanced, natural fisheries

• Reduce the amount of carp fishing news and tactics within the general angling media, keep the carp stuff to specialist titles and throw the emphasis back onto other fish species.

• Try to promote the tactics that I grew up using such as float fishing, quiver tipping etc


I also would look to promote angling to kids through match angling; kids love to compete and matches of all types are a really good way to do this, just so long as they were not on carp only lakes so that again the other species were the main focus.


I really think that if we don’t start to think about where we are being lead in angling that the future looks pretty bleak, or should that be carp? And that’s a pretty scary prospect...







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Comments (62 posted):

beerweasel on 10/09/2012 11:19:41
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I totally agree with you Mark, that's why I fish the free section of my local river and give the lakes a miss.
Ron The Hat Clay on 10/09/2012 11:24:08
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This is one of the best articles ever written on this site! I have found it difficult to disagree with anything that Mark has written. Although I have fished for and caught a great many carp in the past, as a species they have to be put into perspective. And those enormous day ticket fees are quite rightly - criminal! For the same amount of money, I could get a years permission to fish a top class gravel pit in Oxfordshire years ago. And anyone who can, by design, go out and catch a 1lb roach from the Trent is a far better angler than anyone who pulls out a massive hump of boilie fed slime from an overpriced pit!
Paul Boote on 10/09/2012 11:28:46
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As I have long said (and attracted myself a huge "fan club" as a result), time for a cull of carp and carp anglers, plus a threat of one for some of the Nouveaux Barbelistas unless they very soon start conducting themselves like Anglers and not insult-hurling, tantrum-throwing Terrible Twos.
guest39 on 10/09/2012 12:02:03
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Emotive stuff - but if you're prepared to pay such money to fish a day ticket (DT) water, people will keep charging you. I don't fish DT waters and so have no idea what represents 'value'. I can't see a demand for fishing a very snaggy swim on my local river with hemp seed for 8 hours resulting in a handful of bites and the loss of two packs of hooks being reported in the pages of the angling press anytime soon but PM me if you want to do a few hundred words :D Equally depressing is my club consistently putting Carp into lakes where they don't belong because the popular 'Carp Waters' (a Carp angler term, although the committee call them 'mixed fisheries') get full at certain times of the year :omg:
bennygesserit on 10/09/2012 12:23:30
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What is the gripe here ? Overpriced waters or overstocking or the loss of the essence of angling ? I fish day ticket waters mainly for carp , its fun , I am a casual angler who only fishes a few times a year , I like the security of these venues and I like the feel of a carp stripping line, but I don't delude myself about the "worthiness" of how and where I am fishing , its just a bit of fun for me. Having said that the only fish I remember catching , i.e. are memorable , are a couple of tench from the local canal ( up to 6lb ) a pike about 5 lb that took the roach I was reeling in , the very large perch I caught mid winter after a series of long cold blanks and the barbel I caught , 4lb , when I was a kid fishing the river severn with the old man. Of those fish only the perch ( lob worm twitched by the reeds ) and the barbel ( meat with maggot in a feeder ) were really the fish I was targeting. So numerous sub 10 lb pasties , I would say well over a hundred , and I cannot remember any of them, except maybe the carp I caught at Whiteacres that I thought was a twenty but turned out to be foul hooked, and really that was only memorable because I was with my lads and my older lad was giggling because I got a bit over excited. So I like fishing day waters but I don't pretend I am a great angler , or that it is difficult or even significant to anyone else but myself. Some of the day ticket waters I fished have lakes that are more naturally stocked with smaller fish , nobody fishes them. Is it the loss of watercraft and skill that you are lamenting ? Surely that is something that is usually passed from father to son , so those of you with kids can sort that out yourselves.
Paul Boote on 10/09/2012 13:31:47
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Not snottiness or snobbery on my part about carp and carp fishing, no old boy moaning about about how it was "all so much better then", but a concern (a long held one of mine) about the ATMOSPHERE and ATTITUDE that the balls-out commercialization of pretty well anything (not merely of Angling, by a very few for the "This is how it is now, take it or leave it, you can go elsewhere..." paying punter many) can create. Sourness, over-competitiveness, suspicion, hostility, battles over water, fish, territory, interpersonal warfare, reputation, name, all conducted with the background thunder-rumble of impending aggression... So, not the fish themselves (they're just idiot fish as they've always been), not even the Anglers (who, I hope like the rest of us, got into the pastime in the first place for the best of reasons, for an escape from the horror of work etc), but The Biz, the all-controlling Biz, a Biz that, I believe, needs to take a long hard look at itself now and ask itself this: "I started as an Angler but now I am businessman / a journo / a presenter / a tackle magnate / a bait baron / a sponsored name-angler / a whatever ... am I going to leave Angling in a better state than when I started [so many happy memories of those early days...] or worse? Will the suburban / urban / country kid that I was when I started have the chances ... grown-up fishers who didn't snarl or swear at me, who helped me, gave me bits of gear or some maggitz; lots of waters to fish for free ... that I did? Not the easily demonized and scapegoated fish or the Angler, then, but the men who over recent decades have turned the fish into sacred cashcows, who have shaped the Angler into an often largely clueless and easily hateable punter. An old saying springs to mind - "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
chub_on_the_block on 10/09/2012 13:39:28
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Great article. Reflects my views about carp and the carpers world we now find ourselves in. It does impact those who arent interested in fishing for carp - it wrecks traditional tench fisheries for example just as much as cormorants can wreck roach stocks. I was checking out some swimfeeders the other week and mentioned to the dealer that there didnt seem to many options these days - "yes few people are using them because they dont take boilies". Previously i had commented that there wasnt much choice of floats either - infact i had to look hard to find them "dont people float fish anymore?" i enquired. As for specialist baits like gozzers, pinkies, squatts - forget it. 101 different boilies to choose from though, all marvellously branded. I have noticed one thing though - if a water doesnt allow night fishing then theres a better chance that it still holds a traditional mixed stock. These waters also dont have the best swims taken for weeks on end either.
tigger on 10/09/2012 13:42:22
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I started to read the article but I found it to be very boring....load of cobblers imo. Some people like to fish commercials, some don't it's up to the individual. I'm no fan of commercials and don't fish them but they have fans so let em have their pleasure...how much they're willing to pay will decide if the water makes money or get's left to go wild again...or dry up.
Phil Adams on 10/09/2012 14:08:48
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I consider myself to be a carp angler as much as an all rounder. I do agree with certain points, mainly regarding comercial fisheries and the 'shake n bake' carp anglers that seem to multiply monthly. I dont tend to fish commercial fisheries as they just dont do it for me. However, I then struggle to find places to fish that do tick my boxes. Just this month in Carpworld, Jim Gibbinson wrote of not wanting to fish busy, crowded lakes, prefering solitude and peace....well so do I, but finding it is another matter. Carp are easy to breed, grow quickly, quite tough and not hard to catch. So its not a suprise that they are so widely stocked. Combined with the way some of these marketing machines work; its almost impossible to avoid. Im not sure what the solution is, or even if there is one to be honest. Im just hoping I can track down a decent shoal of roach before they disapear.
Peter Jacobs on 10/09/2012 14:26:48
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If you regard modern carp and Carp fishing as a sort of Pandora's Box (as many of the above seem to do) then one can say, with some certainty that the lid is well and truly . . . off, and with no Elpis remaining either. So, the best alternative is to get on with what floats your boat and not to fret over what has gone before, or to waste time in hoping that what was once, will ever return. There are still plenty of alternatives, albeit somewhat more expensive than in years gone by.
sam vimes on 10/09/2012 15:07:03
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Angling (and most other sports/pastimes) has always had people that start up, spend a fortune then disappear. It's not unique to carp fishing, fishing in general or even golf. While it's undoubtedly a societal issue, people often want success now, you can't blame them much if that's the idea that's being sold. Media and retail drive the idea that such instant success is both plausible and commonplace. Reality is somewhat different and that accounts for the relatively high rate of attrition. I gave up on printed angling media a long time ago when I realised how little of it related to the angling reality in my part of the world. I suspect that if I hadn't, I'd have given up, totally disillusioned, many years ago. Now I only bother with web based media but I take that with a large pinch of salt. Even on the forums, too many individuals have a commercial angle and a dollop of self interest, neither of which are necessarily remotely obvious. Ultimately, the angling trade is hardly squeaky clean with regards the rise of carping and the instant angler. I don't particularly like the way angling looks to be going but I'm not going to knock it too much, it doesn't really impact on me very much anyway. What others wish to do or how they spend their money is no concern of mine.
chub_on_the_block on 10/09/2012 15:16:57
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There are still plenty of alternatives, albeit somewhat more expensive than in years gone by. A lake of ones own perhaps?...you would think that should be possible as there are hundreds of thousands on our little island...but as with most land in this country it never comes up for sale and if it does it costs more than a house. France perhaps? - then theres the poisson chat things to get rid of too.
markg on 10/09/2012 15:16:58
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In a recent survey about types of fishing; the more natural fisheries with natural stocks of fish won hands down. In another survey as the most favorite fish Tench won. I fish a natural fishery with natural stocks of fish all the time and its free and nobody ever fishes it except me. A petition asking for more free waters in the UK did not get enough signatures recently. In fact if ever I have raised that subject I get called names. So, why the lament over expensive day ticket waters, clubs converting their waters to carp waters and not enough mixed fisheries, cheap day tickets for the same, or free waters etc. Anglers lament it yet given the chance to do anything about it they will do nothing and even argue to the death against any change and insult anyone who dares to suggest it.---beats me !! The majority of anglers have got what they wanted, which is what Mark has described in his article it seems to me. They love it, I think it is a sack of you know what but, I am not going to try and change it, I have and been in a majority of one almost in daring to suggest it is not a great scene in the coarse angling world.. Or put it this way, anglers want expensive waters, carp all over the place. They dont want mixed fishing, cheap day tickets, free fishing, I know, I have tested the waters quite a few times. so, fair enough I say. Now we will get the boring old litter arguments I expect. count me out.
Lord Paul of Sheffield on 10/09/2012 15:26:49
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Angling around where I live is priced at about £5 or £6 a day - often with £1 off for those just turning up in the evenings Free waters are about - one has a good head of carp in it
john m h on 10/09/2012 20:50:30
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Excellent article Mark. A commercial fishery close to me charges £12/day. When it first started to hold matches (they didn't approve at first but changed the policy when people stayed away) they were a sell out. Now although the weights are always (most times) good, maybe only 15-18 fish and the same names are always in the frame. Personally I'd soon get tired of catching the same fish/species time after time - unless they were river chub ;) Some young lads (even old new anglers) in my club have never fished a river or even caught a fish on a float method. One 16 year old said that he'd rather catch a 10lb carp than a 10lb tench :rolleyes: Ive said it before, I believe that some of these new commercials and the way they are run could be the biggest threat to angling we've had. I know several anglers who have given up fishing, sold all their gear, and then renew everything, some 3-4 times :confused: Another I know must think he's he's running a kind of social service; keeps getting his fishing gear nicked, gets it replaced but still keeps it in the same unlocked out-house :confused: :rolleyes: :confused: Or he could be sponsored by the ATA :D
Paul Boote on 10/09/2012 21:46:01
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Ive said it before, I believe that some of these new commercials and the way they are run could be the biggest threat to angling we've had. I know several anglers who have given up fishing, sold all their gear, and then renew everything, some 3-4 times :confused: Very much so, John. Before the "Yeah, tried that, did it for a time ... moved on to jetskiing / golf / something that had girls who did it..." coarse-commercials, there was the Stillwater Trout scene, not the reservoir or wild, natural lake variety but the Small Put'n'Take ponds and lakes that proliferated from the late 1960s onwards and spawned a generation or two of fishers who spent simply megabucks on kit - the very latest rods and reels, this year's hot new line in multiple weight and densities, clothing and luggage, mags, books, flytying kit... Where are the waters now? Where are the Anglers? Mostly gone, the latter not merely on account of advancing age. The penny eventually dropped, you see - like Mr Theodore Castwell - Mr. Theodore Castwell - Lighter Side - Fly Angler's OnLine - week 13 volume 9 - many realised that, for them at least, flyfishing (for trout, let alone the sea-trout and salmon which they read about in the books and mags and quietly longed to fish for and catch) would forever remain being stuck on some corner in a hole in the ground catching manky stockies. One old fella said to me only last year, when he GAVE me three original Metz Grade One Cock Neck Capes (supreme quality flytying hackle), "The money that I spent on it, Paul. The lies that I told my wife..." [big knowing grin] "And for what?". He's a walker, birdwatcher and gardener now.
john step on 10/09/2012 22:38:52
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This is a dedicated thread for discussing article: Paying your Dues? I suppose the high prices and crowding quoted must be according to where in the country you live. I belong to three different type of outfit here in Nth Lincs.1. A small local club with one lake and lots of varied fish,2. a very friendly farmers fishery with 3 lakes and lots of varied fish,and 3. a small band of blokes with our own small lake with fewer fish. All are peaceful and there is never any crowding. All are VERY reasonably priced for a years fishing. By contrast I spoke to two anglers last year whilst barbeling on the Trent who had travelled all the way up from Luton. By coincidence they were members of my old club who had waters on the Lea that held barbel. When I expressed my astonishment at the distance they had travelled they informed me how crowded my old haunts are now and you had to be there at the crack of dawn to get a swim. I'm glad I moved up North. Not girm at all!
sam vimes on 10/09/2012 22:58:28
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I suppose the high prices and crowding quoted must be according to where in the country you live. I belong to three different type of outfit here in Nth Lincs.1. A small local club with one lake and lots of varied fish,2. a very friendly farmers fishery with 3 lakes and lots of varied fish,and 3. a small band of blokes with our own small lake with fewer fish. All are peaceful and there is never any crowding. All are VERY reasonably priced for a years fishing. Commercials, both match type and big fish waters do exist in Lincs. Old Mill Lakes - Premier Specimen Carp Fishery Climax Wold View Fisheries However, the latter is a much more reasonable (and about average) price than the one John MH is speaking of. If it's the place I suspect (a quick google suggests it is), then the reason it's such a high price is because it's situated in a stillwater coarse fishing desert, there's nothing like it for miles and it has a good, highly populous, catchment area. It's a good four quid over the price of a similar type of water further south. However, for those in the area that would have to travel a good fifty miles to fish something similar, the extra four quid ticket price will be cheaper than paying for the fuel.
davefromthecolnevalley on 11/09/2012 00:33:20
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maybe anglers fish these places because they are safe or as safe as can be, some bit's of rivers I've been to can get very dodgy with gypsy kids, chavs, weirdos and drunks.
chav professor on 11/09/2012 05:21:31
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maybe anglers fish these places because they are safe or as safe as can be, some bit's of rivers I've been to can get very dodgy with gypsy kids, chavs, weirdos and drunks. Once again, a cheap pop at the Chavs......... I think the dangers are over stated. isn't it sad that 'I like to fish lake A, because you can park up next to your swim, know its safe, no trouble'... The perceived problem is exacerbated by reading stories in the angling press - sure there are areas that are to be avoided - but I cannot think of any. I fish the free housing 'Estate' lake over the road... free fishing... it is treated harshly, but its about modelling the model and sensibly challenging the bonfire about to be lit under the ancient oak tree.
bigsean on 11/09/2012 07:59:10
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I agree with everything mark has said in this article and have felt the same way about carp and carp angling for a long time ... however as has been written in previous comments, it is about personal choice and there are other places to fish and other species to catch, if you are willing to look for them. so long as pike, perch and tench still swim in our waters i'll be a happy man (although instances of carp overstocking affecting tench stocks have been an issue in the past :mad: ) the carp circus does annoy the hell out of me, but fishing still takes me away from my rat race and thats what matters to me Sean
bennygesserit on 11/09/2012 08:22:06
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Once again, a cheap pop at the Chavs......... I think the dangers are over stated. isn't it sad that 'I like to fish lake A, because you can park up next to your swim, know its safe, no trouble'... The perceived problem is exacerbated by reading stories in the angling press - sure there are areas that are to be avoided - but I cannot think of any. I fish the free housing 'Estate' lake over the road... free fishing... it is treated harshly, but its about modelling the model and sensibly challenging the bonfire about to be lit under the ancient oak tree. You should fish the free pool by me , it has an enormous stock of roach within whip distance on certain pegs , but fishing there is just a royal pain in the *** , we call it the chav pool although locally it is known as the yeller. But I stopped fishing there when five lads decided to start jumping into their swim and my son , who was with me said " there is always something like this happening here Dad why don't you just pay the six quid and go somewhere where you can relax" he was right and I haven't been back there since. Its not about perceived threat , its about actual behaviour , its about shouting , illegal motorbikes , threats to lone anglers , people bringing air guns with them to fish , improvised rafts going through your swin , a plethora of discarded beer cans , stoners , crackheads , drunks , stones being thrown ( the other type of stoner ) , the discarded line in the trees etc etc I am very far from being a snob but you can only shut out this kind of behaviour for so long , I really hate chavs because i have to put up with them all the time on my housing estate , on the bus , in the pub , when walking my dogs , when cycling home as I have the choice I am not going to have to put up with them when I am fishing as well.
barbelboi on 11/09/2012 08:22:24
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A most enjoyable article Mark. Jerry
guest39 on 11/09/2012 09:33:24
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Fishing has been a part of my life since I was a kid, these days once fishing much of the general detritus that occupies my day to day life drifts away – Work, Debts, contracts, late payers, cash flow etc.. Having fished for all of my life and moved from canals to rivers to lakes and back again the only thing that has changed for me is the quality of my tackle and that I catch more. I can’t say that I get more out of angling for having ‘paid my dues’ or have done the ‘hard yards’. I enjoy walking banks of rivers with a mountain of tackle finding remote swims, far from car parks and popular access points and fishing; not for any species in particular, just fish. The angling that I enjoy is no more valid than the next anglers approach, we’re all different. When I get home from a trip I reflect on what went well, what didn’t what I could do better, what I’m going to do next time? I will be thinking about these things throughout the work week, preparing food, driving, falling asleep – for me fishing is a personal experience that isn’t readily shared. I buy the angling press from time to time and whilst writing this I don’t really know why? A few years ago I started counting Carp on the pages of the magazines and more often than not you can find a picture of a Carp on every page, I’ve not got a problem with Carp but I’m guessing the publishers are giving the readers what they want. Mark Barratt wants to see changes in the approach of the media towards angling, there are too many people like Mark trying to write features and produce articles, typically these 'articles' are a regurgitated version of what has gone before, relating to the same key species, Carp being a common one, although we also see articles on fishing for other species there is very little original or new thinking from authors such as Mark, as the number of digital media outlets has increased, it’s not a recipe for quality reading. People will come to fishing and leave the sport – (much like posting on here) this will and should be the case – 'Paying your dues' is just a way of complaining that in some way what you do is more ‘valid’ than the next person who has quick(er) success.
mark barrett 2 on 11/09/2012 10:26:15
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Sorry mate but you are missing the point completely. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with fishing commercial lakes or that their fih are more or less worthy than natural lakes becaue ultimately I dont care about that one way or another. What I am saying though is because we are fanning a quick fix culture here we are all having to pay increased day/ season ticket fees as a consequence. The more that we encourage or see an increase in the straight out of the packet angler because they have no real hollistic view of the sport the sport in general gets infected with a carp myopia. There is nothing wrong with carp per se. I fish for them from time to time and I really enjoy doing so, but I like a choice and increasingly that choice is becomming more and more limited on still waters to carp, because that is what is financially beneficial to stock, its what those members that know nothing but carp want and so the circle is complete. finally on the point of the media. I was not so long ago very briefly editor of a magazine so I saw how the media world works, not to mention being in it as a writer for 15+ years. The tail is now wagging the dog in so much as advertisers pretty much dictate what is in the mags in one way or the other. How many articles do you see where thee is no commercial hook up at all?very few in my opinion and some are pretty open like as an example the Angling Times' new carp section sponsored by and written by Korda sponsored anglers. How is that ever going to be annything other than a glorified Korda advert along the lines of their TV programmes? Bottle Rocket you say that most of mine and other writers stuff is regurgitated, well I think thats somewhat harsh but also there are elements of truth to it, however you try and get anecdotal type material into press these days. its extremely difficult because editors want technical stuff only, why? because the vast majority of magazine readers these days are novices or beginners.
Peter Jacobs on 11/09/2012 10:36:43
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The more that we encourage or see an increase in the straight out of the packet angler because they have no real hollistic view of the sport the sport in general gets infected with a carp myopia. Has there ever been an era in Angling's history where a completely 'holistic' approach was taken by individual anglers Mark? Personally I think not; rivermen versus stillwater anglers, match versus pleasure and/or specimen "hunters" or specialist anglers versus the rest? Club anglers versus individuals, joiners versus free spirits, and it has always been thus. The 'holistic' list is endless and one that I think is independent of the Carp scene which is, relatively, a new phenomenon.
bennygesserit on 11/09/2012 10:42:47
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Surely all sports are commercialised , life is thouroughly commercialised now whether its twenty minutes per hour of adverts on most tv channels or targeted adverts in your gmail account , the new media enables this to a much greater extent than was ever thought of when I was a kid in the sixties. Its not massively clear what you are complaining about Mark , that mainstream angling is raising prices and making carp more prevalent ? Thats supply and demand - vote with your feet. Or is it that the angling media has created its own fashion for carp and now that fashion is creating its own resonance and fostering more carp anglers ? The thing is though carp fishing is fun , people must enjoy it otherwise the market wouldn't be there. There must be a market for more naturally stocked waters since to a man the forum members on this site seem to abhor carp puddles , so maybe you just need to look a little harder ? The complex I fish at trys to provide a variety there is a carp puddle , a specimen lake , a snake lake and a very mature , mostly naturally stocked lake , surrounded and secluded by very tall trees , its a lovely setting but its difficult to fish and most people , like you say caught in the self perpetuating media sponsored , carp merry go round choose not to fish it.
guest39 on 11/09/2012 10:55:33
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Bottle Rocket you say that most of mine and other writers stuff is regurgitated, well I think thats somewhat harsh but also there are elements of truth to it, however you try and get anecdotal type material into press these days. its extremely difficult because editors want technical stuff only, why? because the vast majority of magazine readers these days are novices or beginners. It wasn't meant to be 'harsh' - posts don't get proof read, but I stand by what I wrote. Its a difficult circle to break - the angling press wants technical stuff so that advertisers can sell the component rig parts, whilst older anglers want something else which isn't readily 'sponsored'. Pity that there isn't a balance point.
swindy on 11/09/2012 12:22:41
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An interesting article, but i'm not sure that the basic thrust of the argument, that the emphasis on Carp is denigrating other forms of coarse fishing, holds water. There is a greater choice of fisheries available now than there ever was in the past, and the vast majority stock a number of different species.There may be an emphasis on the Carp in these waters by a majority of anglers but it is quite possible to catch bream and tench etc if desired. I live in Surrey , and within a half hour drive from my house, i can reach many and diverse venues including Rivers, Streams, Commercials, Small Ponds , Large Lakes and Reservoirs. The cost to fish these venues varies from £5 per day to £90 a year for membership to a club. This does not seem expensive when compared to other sports,for example, a years season ticket to a football club can cost anything from £200-£2000. If the majority of people who angle choose to fish exclusively for Carp then let them. It means that i can fish for Roach, Chub, Tench and Bream in relative peace!
Paul Boote on 11/09/2012 12:44:54
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It's not that the rivers - coarse ones, at least - aren't there and available at an affordable price, swindy, they are; it's the fact that many simply don't want them now. I well remember the "out of the frying pan into a bonfire of hurt vanities and outraged vested interests " response I got on several sites, both coarse and game, several years ago now, when I spoke of The Burgerization of Angling and the "I want it now!" mindset that it has engendered, drawing an analogy with golf and how that sport would suffer a mass exodus if it were to suddenly make each of its 9 or 18 holes 10 -15 metres wide, how the real talent would walk from golf the very same day and the new "l'll 'ave some of that" crazy golfers just a year or so afterwards. And, above all, back to fishing now, I made a point about how when the Anglers walk away, who will care a jot for and look after the rivers, their fish and their valleys ... that a syndicate or high-fee fishery might be able to keep its waters pukka for a time, but not forever, for when the wider aquatic environment is no longer valued, when the waters that feed your own little piece of fenced-off paradise are allowed to run foul, you are surely up the Swanee, sonny...
chub_on_the_block on 11/09/2012 13:43:34
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I think the changes in angling reflect another interest i have - natural history. Natural history societies are dying off as the main protaganists get older. Theres few young adults or even 30 somethings that have an interest in butterflies, bees, wild flowers etc etc. All the expertise is in middle aged or older people - apart from a few younger academics who can clean up writing the latest text books or identification guides. For me, the lure of fishing has always been to be in a natural setting targeting wild fish. Fishing in some commercial fisheries sounds to me like going butterfly hunting in butterfly world - great if youd never seen a particular butterfly before, but a bit hollow after that.
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) on 11/09/2012 14:05:19
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As Paul stated, for me fishing a commercial (a typical mud puddle) would be like playing golf on a course that has conical greens and 10ft diameter holes or playing hook a duck at the fair ground. A friend recently fished a match on a local commercial - AND CAUGHT A CARP ON A PLUMMET BEFORE THE WHISTLE! Not for me thank you or for my lad (14) who just caught his first Ribble barbel. Events like fish o mania don't help either.....
guest39 on 11/09/2012 14:32:34
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Events like fish o mania don't help either..... I agree. Its not a great advert for angling, easy to televise, straight forward to organise, off the peg angling, that can be endured from the comfort of your arm chair. Many of the guys fishing in 'FishO' have paid their dues though and its perfectly understandable to see why they enter it.
Lord Paul of Sheffield on 11/09/2012 14:49:16
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As angling stands at present you can fish how you want, want to catch a 30lb carp - pay your money and sit it out at a venue that holds one, want to catch 6lb carp all day - find a commercial and fish it, want to river fish - go to a river and fish ( barbel, chub ect), want easy fishing - plenty of that , want harder fishing you can do that. There are still waters that hold few carp for those who don't want carp -it's just a matter of finding them and fishing them - but getting fewer I'll grant you. I can and do fish the Rother, it's not easy at times but there are chub , barbel, roach (and carp) in there - I blank sometimes , catch other. I find a local commercial that has roach, tench, rudd, bream (and Carp) and target them all. I even fish a small free pond that's chock full of rudd , small ones but in the hope of a 2lb rudd (no carp) Howe long things will stay like this - who know
Paul Boote on 11/09/2012 14:54:22
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A friend recently fished a match on a local commercial - AND CAUGHT A CARP ON A PLUMMET BEFORE THE WHISTLE! It was the same with the trout of a certain, very well-regarded and rather expensive Southern small stillwater that the elderly gentleman I mentioned earlier in this thread (the man who gave me three Grade 1 Metz capes last year) regularly used to take me to fish as his guest in the 1980s (I returned the favour with chalkstream days on two not expensive but very fine fisheries that I then had rods on, plus the odd week away with me in the West after sea-trout and salmon). He knew just what I privately thought of his fishery and derived no end of amusement from my anarchic take on flyfishing for its inmates - i.e. "Now, just what won't they take? Legered 3-inch brass tube fly with a single carp hook sticking out of its back end? They won't take this surely...?" They did, one of them over 10 pounds!
bennygesserit on 11/09/2012 16:04:41
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It's not that the rivers - coarse ones, at least - aren't there and available at an affordable price, swindy, they are; it's the fact that many simply don't want them now. I well remember the "out of the frying pan into a bonfire of hurt vanities and outraged vested interests " response I got on several sites, both coarse and game, several years ago now, when I spoke of The Burgerization of Angling and the "I want it now!" mindset that it has engendered, drawing an analogy with golf and how that sport would suffer a mass exodus if it were to suddenly make each of its 9 or 18 holes 10 -15 metres wide, how the real talent would walk from golf the very same day and the new "l'll 'ave some of that" crazy golfers just a year or so afterwards. And, above all, back to fishing now, I made a point about how when the Anglers walk away, who will care a jot for and look after the rivers, their fish and their valleys ... that a syndicate or high-fee fishery might be able to keep its waters pukka for a time, but not forever, for when the wider aquatic environment is no longer valued, when the waters that feed your own little piece of fenced-off paradise are allowed to run foul, you are surely up the Swanee, sonny... Surely even without angling the EA has a duty to maintain the integrity of our rivers , not that they always do it in a way that everyone agrees with.
john step on 11/09/2012 19:40:53
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This is a dedicated thread for discussing article: Paying your Dues? The discussion seems to have developed into the FOR and AGAINST the commercials. Without going over old ground I would like to say that as a fit, healthy active mid 60's lifelong angler (since 8 yrs old) who likes to fish remote places...I find this blooming exhausting! I fish 2 or 3 times a week, (lucky me). Some days it is just plain enjoyable to fish near the car with everything to hand! There seems to me to be an awfull lot of grey hair on the river and lake banks. I see a lot of people who it could be said find the physical effort of lugging their gear a challenge. This ageing generally of the angling population is possibly a factor in the rise in popularity of instant easy fishing and easy access.
Paul Boote on 12/09/2012 12:24:26
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I have "done" Golf, now I'll do Mountaineering and Climbing (at the risk of incensing one or two internutters who just lurve it when I namedrop - I don't do so for personal kudos, you know, merely to repeat the words of those who REALLY CAN DO something, not just prattle on, carp and argue about it). I remembered the words first... Okay ... but who said them...? Dougal Haston whom I met once as a teenager and found inspiring in his, quiet, wry no-nonsense Scottishness and who died (wiped away by avalanche whilst skiing not climbing) not many years later? Nope. Not him. Jonathan Scott, the early 20s son of the once well-known BBC Weather presenter Jack Scott, a South Bucks pal, part of a large group of staunch young drinking, biking and sports-mad buddies I had at the time, who over a pint in the Brunel University bar in a mid-late 1970s spring, on hearing that I was off to India to fish for mahseer "For as long as it takes and for as long as I can take it" and telling me that he was off to Kashmir a few weeks ahead of me to make an ascent of a peak named Brahma II (I think it was), said "You're mad, Paul!". "No madder than you, Jon!" was my reply. He died on Brahma II very shortly before me and my girl Anita flew to India to begin our Mahseer Mission (I seem to remember that his body was never found), throwing a terrible pall over our impending trip. Was it Jon? Might have been, I thought - until I remembered. Was it Lute Jerstad, or John Roskelley, or Reinhold Messner, or Sir Edmund Edmund, then (all met and spoken with at length (they enjoyed meeting a madcap angler as opposed to the usual madcap young climber and so gave me some time) on my later Indian, Kashmiri and Nepali travels? I wanted it to be Ed Hillary, on the night he bailed out of an official reception in Kathmandu and asked me, a young fella he had had a few words with earlier, "Fancy a bite to eat down the street?", for he said things to me over dinner that night about climbing and what had happened to climbing that he probably would never have said to another climber (we had the Ganges in common, you see - he had gone up the river in jetboats (on his From The Ocean To The Sky expedition), I had camped on its banks and waded its waters and flung plugs and spoons), but now I know it wasn't. So who then? It came to me in a one-word flash as I walked to my local shops to get some milk an hour ago - "Worksop!" One of two men that I shared a conversation with at the CLA Game Fair in 1980 (or was it 1981) in Robin Hood Country, between one much-venerated man (by climbers and trekkers) I had met in Nepal some months (or a year or so earlier), Colonel Jimmy Roberts, the British Gurkha Officer who, together with Sir John Hunt, had put Hillary and Tensing atop Everest in 1953, the man who had also literally invented Himalayan trekking, and another man, a laid-back, wryly funny and quietly friendly Northerner, who had come to an unlikely Game Fair (not his chosen territory, nor mine) to meet him, the great climber Doug Scott. A very posh firm that I was doing some consultancy work for at the time had taken a stand at the Worksop Game Fair and had asked me to put on a display of prints taken from my slides of my Indian and Kashmiri fishy and mountain travels, a firm of which Jimmy in his home in Nepal (he had "stayed on" after Indian Independence) had been a founder. Jimmy was a legend among climbers, for he had put more of them on unclimbed great peaks first than anyone else - he was the man, the founder, the pioneer, the facilitator, the source... So, on hearing that an elderly Jimmy was back in Britain to have a hip operation, Doug Scott came to pay his respects. Me and a girl I knew, a friend and colleague, Sarah, witnessed the wonderful meeting of two great mountain men amid wall-to-wall countrywear, dogs and tweed beneath a Midland English summer sun. I know now that one of them said the words that I remembered earlier this morning after reading john step's posting, words spoken when they were discussing increasing pressure on the big-name peaks by climbers and about infirmity in advancing years and old age - these words: "Just so long as they never lower the mountain!" I believe - indeed, have long felt - that some in Angling over the past couple of decades or so have some done just this, unwittingly in most cases, utterly cynically in the case of a very few - to both Anglers' and Angling's terrible cost. "Great things are done when Men & Mountains meet This is not Done by Jostling in the Street." William Blake
bennygesserit on 12/09/2012 17:22:56
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I have "done" Golf, now I'll do Mountaineering and Climbing (at the risk of incensing one or two internutters who just lurve it when I namedrop - I don't do so for personal kudos, you know, merely to repeat the words of those who REALLY CAN DO something, not just prattle on, carp and argue about it). I remembered the words first... Okay ... but who said them...? Dougal Haston whom I met once as a teenager and found inspiring in his, quiet, wry no-nonsense Scottishness and who died (wiped away by avalanche whilst skiing not climbing) not many years later? Nope. Not him. Jonathan Scott, the early 20s son of the once well-known BBC Weather presenter Jack Scott, a South Bucks pal, part of a large group of staunch young drinking, biking and sports-mad buddies I had at the time, who over a pint in the Brunel University bar in a mid-late 1970s spring, on hearing that I was off to India to fish for mahseer "For as long as it takes and for as long as I can take it" and telling me that he was off to Kashmir a few weeks ahead of me to make an ascent of a peak named Brahma II (I think it was), said "You're mad, Paul!". "No madder than you, Jon!" was my reply. He died on Brahma II very shortly before me and my girl Anita flew to India to begin our Mahseer Mission (I seem to remember that his body was never found), throwing a terrible pall over our impending trip. Was it Jon? Might have been, I thought - until I remembered. Was it Lute Jerstad, or John Roskelley, or Reinhold Messner, or Sir Edmund Edmund, then (all met and spoken with at length (they enjoyed meeting a madcap angler as opposed to the usual madcap young climber and so gave me some time) on my later Indian, Kashmiri and Nepali travels? I wanted it to be Ed Hillary, on the night he bailed out of an official reception in Kathmandu and asked me, a young fella he had had a few words with earlier, "Fancy a bite to eat down the street?", for he said things to me over dinner that night about climbing and what had happened to climbing that he probably would never have said to another climber (we had the Ganges in common, you see - he had gone up the river in jetboats (on his From The Ocean To The Sky expedition), I had camped on its banks and waded its waters and flung plugs and spoons), but now I know it wasn't. So who then? It came to me in a one-word flash as I walked to my local shops to get some milk an hour ago - "Worksop!" One of two men that I shared a conversation with at the CLA Game Fair in 1980 (or was it 1981) in Robin Hood Country, between one much-venerated man (by climbers and trekkers) I had met in Nepal some months (or a year or so earlier), Colonel Jimmy Roberts, the British Gurkha Officer who, together with Sir John Hunt, had put Hillary and Tensing atop Everest in 1953, the man who had also literally invented Himalayan trekking, and another man, a laid-back, wryly funny and quietly friendly Northerner, who had come to an unlikely Game Fair (not his chosen territory, nor mine) to meet him, the great climber Doug Scott. A very posh firm that I was doing some consultancy work for at the time had taken a stand at the Worksop Game Fair and had asked me to put on a display of prints taken from my slides of my Indian and Kashmiri fishy and mountain travels, a firm of which Jimmy in his home in Nepal (he had "stayed on" after Indian Independence) had been a founder. Jimmy was a legend among climbers, for he had put more of them on unclimbed great peaks first than anyone else - he was the man, the founder, the pioneer, the facilitator, the source... So, on hearing that an elderly Jimmy was back in Britain to have a hip operation, Doug Scott came to pay his respects. Me and a girl I knew, a friend and colleague, Sarah, witnessed the wonderful meeting of two great mountain men amid wall-to-wall countrywear, dogs and tweed beneath a Midland English summer sun. I know now that one of them said the words that I remembered earlier this morning after reading john step's posting, words spoken when they were discussing increasing pressure on the big-name peaks by climbers and about infirmity in advancing years and old age - these words: "Just so long as they never lower the mountain!" I believe - indeed, have long felt - that some in Angling over the past couple of decades or so have some done just this, unwittingly in most cases, utterly cynically in the case of a very few - to both Anglers' and Angling's terrible cost. "Great things are done when Men & Mountains meet This is not Done by Jostling in the Street." William Blake Paul once again you are extremely eloquent , but I can't help thinking "yes but its only fishing" I have an admiration for people who are determined and diligent , who put the effort in, I bought my older son a guitar when he was young and he picked it up a couple of times and posed in front of the mirror "this thing is broken" he decalred but the middle lad quietly picked it up , spent the required months , got the blisters and can now bang out a very passable star spangled banner a la woodstock, the older lad though spent his own time and money putting himself through night classes , unrelated to his job, and can now strip and reconstruct a motor cycle engine , so he put the hard work and effort in but on something he enjoys. I don't see how my happy splodging is lowering the bar and denying the world the oppurtunity of a great angler , if someone is going to pursue angling to excellence they would be reading excellent books and articles not the angling times goo. You should make aquantance with ThamesOddity a young angler about to enter uni , who is pursng excellence in angling , one of the country's youngest qualified fly fishing coaches , I am sure you two would , rightly , get on like a house on fire.
Paul Boote on 12/09/2012 18:54:41
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"Paul once again you are extremely eloquent , but I can't help thinking "yes but its only fishing" I have an admiration for people who are determined and diligent , who put the effort in, I bought my older son a guitar when he was young and he picked it up a couple of times and posed in front of the mirror "this thing is broken" he decalred but the middle lad quietly picked it up , spent the required months , got the blisters and can now bang out a very passable star spangled banner a la woodstock, the older lad though spent his own time and money putting himself through night classes , unrelated to his job, and can now strip and reconstruct a motor cycle engine , so he put the hard work and effort in but on something he enjoys. I don't see how my happy splodging is lowering the bar and denying the world the oppurtunity of a great angler , if someone is going to pursue angling to excellence they would be reading excellent books and articles not the angling times goo. You should make aquantance with ThamesOddity a young angler about to enter uni , who is pursng excellence in angling , one of the country's youngest qualified fly fishing coaches , I am sure you two would , rightly , get on like a house on fire." When "happy splodging" becomes the norm, the bar, the level at which things are set and by which they are judged, though, and anything else unorthodox, even downright perverse... I can remember a very senior member here (who has fished in India) saying something to me on this forum like "But some of us don't have the time to do that sort of stuff, Paul ... we have wives, jobs and families...". At which point I thought summat unrepeatable and let the site as it was then get on with it.
sam vimes on 12/09/2012 19:06:10
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Always strikes me as perverse that the biggest moaners about the state of angling are those that are, or have been, quite involved in the angling industry in some form or another. A similar phenomena occurs when folks bellyache about "number chasers". It's invariably those that have done exactly that already that suddenly develop a distaste that borders on contempt.
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) on 12/09/2012 19:07:56
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Rather like reformed smokers.....
bennygesserit on 12/09/2012 19:13:22
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Maybe in the Angling press the happy splodger is becoming the norm but I think there are some blogs and posts on here that are very far from that , possibly as Mark says because they are free from any hint of commercial gain , not the usual publicity seeking suspects , but the odd gem , in forumites own articles an emancipation from carp , lets face it hardly anyone on here admits to honestly liking carp and reasonably disguised carp puddles , I do but maybe that is something that shouldn't be repeated. ---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ---------- I'll add that excellence and the pursuit of excellence is something to be admired
Paul Boote on 12/09/2012 19:42:36
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Definitely. For example, Mark Wintle's float, float-fishing and river-fishing FM articles of several years ago are classics. Recommended.
sam vimes on 12/09/2012 19:43:10
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lets face it hardly anyone on here admits to honestly liking carp and reasonably disguised carp puddles , I do but maybe that is something that shouldn't be repeated. I will fish both match type commercials and the big fish commercials on occasion. Neither are my usual haunts but I enjoy them as a change. The saving grace is that, due to shift work, I don't have to fish with the hordes on weekends.
chub_on_the_block on 12/09/2012 20:16:37
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I dont care how others fish or if they prefer commercials or carp lakes or whatever. I dont feel sorry for them missing out on traditional venues, employing many different techniques, or rarely getting to fish a water in splendid isolation - thats all their choices. Those are simply my aims, just as i have my own taste in music, sports i follow etc etc. If others like Cliff Richard or Experimental Jazz thats up to them. Sometimes i have enjoyed bagging up and would enjoy the challenge of trying to get 100Ib of puddle carp in a session - because its not something i have ever achieved or attempted. I have had nearly 60Ib of rudd in a session, and similar weights of tench, crucians, chub or bream a few times. But those days were the rarity rather than the norm - the Red Letter Days that live long in the memory. I dont even aim to "bag up" in that way either when i set off to go fishing - usually I would be hoping for the odd better fish, with the target species dictated by the season and venue. My concerns are selfish ones in the sense that I dont like to see venues i have known change character into highly managed carp waters. Now i cant say this has happened very often, and more of my favourite waters have infact been lost to fishing altogether. When i see all the new waters that have sprung up in the last 20 years or so i do feel its a pity that most are then stocked heavily with carp and few if any ever develop into the kind of unmanaged paradise that i would look for. I also dont like to feel marginalised or regarded as some sort of out-dated relic - even though much of my gear certainly is. To be honest i get that impression more from reading the Angling Press than from the anglers i meet or the posters on this forum - many of whom do not fish much differently than i do. But to read the articles it seems i am the only one who doesnt use bolt or hair rigs, 10Ib line or camp in a bivvy. Back in the day i remember when Newark Needle Floats were the new thing and Poles after that ..but i just plod on with what i enjoy. However, I do think it is difficult for angling to claim the high ground in environmental debates if it becomes an activity primarily focussed on muddy puddles full of carp. Why would a wildlife Trust or the National Trust which own many stunning old estate lakes or natural ponds want to see their flagship wetland changed into something like that?. Also, how can anglers moan about river management if fewer than ever have any experience of river fishing or if their idea of river management is to remove snags, stock it with unnatural populations of rainbow trout or whatever else and keep the edges mowed neatly like a croquet lawn with an access road for their vehicles?.
MarkTheSpark on 12/09/2012 20:25:20
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Carp fishing has done more than just made half of all anglers myopic; it has seriously affected my sport, and for that, I despise it. Far too many people on this thread are saying: "What's wrong with paying £20 to fish a carp puddle?" I'll tell you; they are wildly overstocked and should, by rights, attract the attention of the RSPCA, if it weren't so obsessed with animals which wear fur. If you penned 500 rabbits in a field and got people to let rip with shotguns, there would be an outcry. But the damage inflicted on my sport is direct; I don't give a tinker's cuss about carp puddles. But I do give a cuss about the 'natural' waters around here, chiefly gravel pits. Before the carp obsession began, loads were on day ticket, some were free and the rest on a club book. Now, they are almost all syndicated. And by the most unpleasant kind of carp angler you can imagine. Of course, the reason that I have been physically threatened by carp anglers on these lakes when I have asked them how I might get a day's fishing is that they don't want me there. And the reason they don't want me there is partly because they don't want me seeing them transferring stolen carp in in the dead of night. Or they think I might be the person who is stealing the fish they stole the week before. I haven't imagined this. I have been told it, bluntly, by the same man who threatened me with physical violence if I ever set foot on his fishery again. I did go back. I waited until he was parked up behind the fishery's gate for the night, and superglued the padlock. Because of carp anglers, I can't explore like I used to. I can't track down some pristine tench or pike. These species are free to live and die unmolested as the dim-witted, blinkered carp trappers - whose only skill is driving bait boats and tying rigs - pursue their weird troglodyte cult, puffing weed in private. I'd be quite happy if our friends from Eastern Europe ate them all. The carp or the carp anglers, or both.
sam vimes on 12/09/2012 20:40:44
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While I can understand your ire and the reasons for it, don't you think that there may just be a wee bit of nonsensical stereotyping going on in there? It's a little hard to be offended by something quite so riduculous, but I might, if I actually considered myself a carp angler. Fortunately, I'm just an angler that occasionally fishes for carp. The prospect of mucking about with a bait boat whilst smoking weed does sound interesting though. I do wonder how I've managed to catch the odd fish without the use of either, ever.
john m h on 12/09/2012 21:11:27
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I'll tell you; they are wildly overstocked and should, by rights, attract the attention of the RSPCA, if it weren't so obsessed with animals which wear fur.. ...or if a dog owner overfed is so it became morbidly obese :mad:
cg74 on 12/09/2012 21:30:31
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Carp fishing has done more than just made half of all anglers myopic; it has seriously affected my sport, and for that, I despise it. Far too many people on this thread are saying: "What's wrong with paying £20 to fish a carp puddle?" I'll tell you; they are wildly overstocked and should, by rights, attract the attention of the RSPCA, if it weren't so obsessed with animals which wear fur. If you penned 500 rabbits in a field and got people to let rip with shotguns, there would be an outcry. But the damage inflicted on my sport is direct; I don't give a tinker's cuss about carp puddles. But I do give a cuss about the 'natural' waters around here, chiefly gravel pits. Before the carp obsession began, loads were on day ticket, some were free and the rest on a club book. Now, they are almost all syndicated. And by the most unpleasant kind of carp angler you can imagine. Of course, the reason that I have been physically threatened by carp anglers on these lakes when I have asked them how I might get a day's fishing is that they don't want me there. And the reason they don't want me there is partly because they don't want me seeing them transferring stolen carp in in the dead of night. Or they think I might be the person who is stealing the fish they stole the week before. I haven't imagined this. I have been told it, bluntly, by the same man who threatened me with physical violence if I ever set foot on his fishery again. I did go back. I waited until he was parked up behind the fishery's gate for the night, and superglued the padlock. Because of carp anglers, I can't explore like I used to. I can't track down some pristine tench or pike. These species are free to live and die unmolested as the dim-witted, blinkered carp trappers - whose only skill is driving bait boats and tying rigs - pursue their weird troglodyte cult, puffing weed in private. I'd be quite happy if our friends from Eastern Europe ate them all. The carp or the carp anglers, or both. I don't want to burst your bubble but gravel pits are NOT a natural feature of the English landscape. Equally laughable is Mark B talking about "creating more balanced, natural fisheries." Sorry but your river carp ain't natural, they're an invasive alien species, as are another of Mark B's favoured species - zander. Or doesn't that count, as they're being left alone to establish a balance? ---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ---------- ...or if a dog owner overfed is so it became morbidly obese :mad: But isn't this the type of fishery that the ATr are happily promoting? I see that the irony covers Mark the Spark too.... ---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:16 ---------- While I can understand your ire and the reasons for it, don't you think that there may just be a wee bit of nonsensical stereotyping going on in there? It's a little hard to be offended by something quite so riduculous, but I might, if I actually considered myself a carp angler. Fortunately, I'm just an angler that occasionally fishes for carp. The prospect of mucking about with a bait boat whilst smoking weed does sound interesting though. I do wonder how I've managed to catch the odd fish without the use of either, ever. Spot on Sam.
MarkTheSpark on 12/09/2012 21:43:32
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While I can understand your ire and the reasons for it, don't you think that there may just be a wee bit of nonsensical stereotyping going on in there? It's a little hard to be offended by something quite so riduculous, but I might, if I actually considered myself a carp angler. Fortunately, I'm just an angler that occasionally fishes for carp. The prospect of mucking about with a bait boat whilst smoking weed does sound interesting though. I do wonder how I've managed to catch the odd fish without the use of either, ever. Yep. A whole load of stereotyping, with a large helping of satire. But the fishery and its syndicate really exist, and so does carp theft. In fact, on a scale that's quite alarming. I've lost count of the number of 'roaches' (stubs of joints) I've found round carp lakes. Not moralising, but it's a fact. And I know some great carp anglers who, almost universally, also fish for barbel, chub, pike and tench. They earn my respect. But there's the rub; there are a lot more carp anglers whose first rod had a 2 1/2 lb test curve and who've never tied a spade-end 20. What they have done is researched carp traps which required little human intervention, just some information about where to camp, some bait, and an endless amount of time. If you can successfully hook a fish while you are fast asleep, you're not really fishing, IMHO. I know. I've done it. I might do it again one day. But I won't claim it makes me a better angler. ---------- Post added at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ---------- I don't want to burst your bubble but gravel pits are NOT a natural feature of the English landscape. I know. That's why I put 'natural' in inverted commas.
chub_on_the_block on 12/09/2012 21:47:27
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The prospect of mucking about with a bait boat whilst smoking weed does sound interesting though. I do wonder how I've managed to catch the odd fish without the use of either, ever. Dont do it. Its the flashbacks that are the worst. After you drown all on board the cruise liner after its hits the rocks and capsizes you will be damned to hear their screams every night. Alternatively you may develop an involuntary optonic response to high pitched sounds, whatever the source. Its all in the book Reef Fishing Madness by Max Doobie.
cg74 on 12/09/2012 21:52:58
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I know. That's why I put 'natural' in inverted commas. I'd just seen but where in England can we find a natural water that has not been impacted upon by humans?
sam vimes on 12/09/2012 23:36:18
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Yep. A whole load of stereotyping, with a large helping of satire. But the fishery and its syndicate really exist, and so does carp theft. In fact, on a scale that's quite alarming. I've lost count of the number of 'roaches' (stubs of joints) I've found round carp lakes. Not moralising, but it's a fact. I wouldn't try to deny either. The problem is, neither is the sole preserve of carp angling/carp anglers and neither applies universally to all participants. I can take you to sections of a river that is almost totally devoid of carp (and absolutely devoid of carp anglers) where you will find recreational drug users (and alcohol abusers) "fishing". As far as fish thefts go, it probably is a bigger issue in the carp world. However, it's not unique to that branch. I'm pretty sure that the original Ribble barbel didn't put on hiking boots and walk over the Pennines. Truth be told, I'm quite pleased to think that whenever I give one of the many different aspects of angling that tickles my fancy a go, I'll invariably be seriously annoying some intolerant sod whose angling ideals I fall way short of. The irony being that, if that same intolerant sod happened to pass me the very next day, he may well see me as a kindred spirit.
MarkTheSpark on 13/09/2012 11:27:54
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I'd just seen but where in England can we find a natural water that has not been impacted upon by humans? Almost nowhere. You either shrug and say 'that's the way it is' or you get annoyed when a perfectly good mixed fishery is stuffed with carp, syndicated and ceases to be a 'public' facility.
Cliff Hatton 2 on 16/09/2012 00:15:27
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Spot-on, Mark the Spark; clearly a man with standards, so dare I say that I've been banging on about the carp phenomenon for years. Unfortunately (but inevitably) the responses have been fairly hostile coming as they do from know-nothings who'd never have considered rod and line without the advent of luxury bivvies and beds (for Christ's sake) electronic wizardry and cheap booze. Not uncommonly these types form a surly syndicate which takes over a formerly excellent mixed fishery and erects security fencing comparable to that at Stalag 17. Like Mark, I can no longer fish waters I discovered and had been fishing for 30 years or more, and it rankles somewhat to be told by some Neanderthal trapper that I'm not welcome unless I can stump up £600 for the season: 'Do you get bothered by the tincas' I asked one such angling authority as he re-baited 'What? Gypsies? Nah'. On the plus side, modern carp-trapping has been the catalyst for some tremendous gear - the sort of stuff we used to dream about and, let's not forget, our lakes and rivers no longer host those ugly long lines of garish umbrellas in fifty shades of turquoise, and technicolor tackle strewn all over the place: at least these guys are tidy. Some things do improve but they'd be even better if the hardcore trappers could see the folly of their approach to 'angling' (But how does anyone 'change'? I suspect we're stuck with them) The awful truth is, the carp-fishing craze and the characters who pursue it are - without question - the products of those dyed-in-the-wool fast-receding 'names' who worked innovatively and successfully to reduce their chances of failure; their ideas have been refined and commercialized to the point where nobody need think any more. Those 'names', I suspect (and largely respect) live with a burden of guilt and very rarely carp-fish today.
bennygesserit on 16/09/2012 05:12:06
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Spot-on, Mark the Spark; clearly a man with standards, so dare I say that I've been banging on about the carp phenomenon for years. Unfortunately (but inevitably) the responses have been fairly hostile coming as they do from know-nothings who'd never have considered rod and line without the advent of luxury bivvies and beds (for Christ's sake) electronic wizardry and cheap booze. Not uncommonly these types form a surly syndicate which takes over a formerly excellent mixed fishery and erects security fencing comparable to that at Stalag 17. Like Mark, I can no longer fish waters I discovered and had been fishing for 30 years or more, and it rankles somewhat to be told by some Neanderthal trapper that I'm not welcome unless I can stump up £600 for the season: 'Do you get bothered by the tincas' I asked one such angling authority as he re-baited 'What? Gypsies? Nah'. On the plus side, modern carp-trapping has been the catalyst for some tremendous gear - the sort of stuff we used to dream about and, let's not forget, our lakes and rivers no longer host those ugly long lines of garish umbrellas in fifty shades of turquoise, and technicolor tackle strewn all over the place: at least these guys are tidy. Some things do improve but they'd be even better if the hardcore trappers could see the folly of their approach to 'angling' (But how does anyone 'change'? I suspect we're stuck with them) The awful truth is, the carp-fishing craze and the characters who pursue it are - without question - the products of those dyed-in-the-wool fast-receding 'names' who worked innovatively and successfully to reduce their chances of failure; their ideas have been refined and commercialized to the point where nobody need think any more. Those 'names', I suspect (and largely respect) live with a burden of guilt and very rarely carp-fish today. Wow I haven't seen that much scorn poured on something since that massive failure at the scorn factory and five of us had to tip a big old vat of scorn away.
sam vimes on 16/09/2012 06:18:44
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Wow I haven't seen that much scorn poured on something since that massive failure at the scorn factory and five of us had to tip a big old vat of scorn away. Scorn or stereotyping with intolerant and inaccurate bile?:confused:
Cliff Hatton 2 on 16/09/2012 10:35:05
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I sympathise with the last couple of comments and admit to failing to distinguish '...the characters...' and '...some of the characters...' In the case of the latter group I write truthfully and from experience: I wouldn't lie! Those who might be regarded as 'good' carp anglers would not, I'm sure, disagree with my comments on that groundless grouping so clearly without the true spirit of 'fishing'. As I have said, Sam, I'm relating to much real life experience and I don't lie; I merely report the evidence of my own eyes: inconsiderate conduct, thoughtless methods e.g.2-3 kilos of boat-delivered ground and hook-bait and, quite often, a couple of cases of good ol' Stella to foment a good night's kip! It may well be that you haven't come across this type but they really do exist.
maceo on 16/09/2012 10:48:25
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As others have said here, I think it's pretty much up to the individual where they fish and what they fish for. Personally, I like rivers and am far happier catching a dozen 6oz roach in a session on a beautiful quiet and peaceful river than a 20lb carp at a crowded commercial, but I can see how others might have the opposite view. Each to his own. At least the popularity of carp fishing means that I rarely, if ever, see anyone else fishing the rivers when I go and I can choose any swim I want and have peace and quiet all day. (As a fellow hornet, I didn't quite understand how Tony Coton is to blame for the rise of commercial carp fishing either. I thought that was Bassini's fault...:) )
sam vimes on 16/09/2012 11:04:17
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I sympathise with the last couple of comments and admit to failing to distinguish '...the characters...' and '...some of the characters...' In the case of the latter group I write truthfully and from experience: I wouldn't lie! Those who might be regarded as 'good' carp anglers would not, I'm sure, disagree with my comments on that groundless grouping so clearly without the true spirit of 'fishing'. As I have said, Sam, I'm relating to much real life experience and I don't lie; I merely report the evidence of my own eyes: inconsiderate conduct, thoughtless methods e.g.2-3 kilos of boat-delivered ground and hook-bait and, quite often, a couple of cases of good ol' Stella to foment a good night's kip! It may well be that you haven't come across this type but they really do exist. Cliff, at no point did I make any suggestion that you were telling lies. I can acknowledge that there are some decidedly nasty characters involved in carp fishing. However, I'm not so daft as to label all of them or think that such characters are the sole preserve of carp angling. There are plenty of negative aspects of "carping" that I don't particularly like, but that's not a valid excuse for tarring all with your brush.
Paul Boote on 16/09/2012 12:26:59
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Boils down to this, chaps: there should be room for ALL sorts of Anglers, whatever they may fish for, wherever they may do it, with no sniffing noises made about a particular field of Angling that you don't personally happen to buy into. However, as I said earlier in this thread, when I wrote of mountains being lowered, of bars and levels and standards too, I also believe that NO GROUPING - however large, well-subscribed and, to the minds of some of its leading lights, powerful and influential - should throw its weight around, think itself to be the only show in town, demanding this, demanding that, wanting that to go, them to shut up, and having a right a sulk if what it says doesn't go. Carry on Angling.


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