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Angling and the Food Chain

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Are we are helping our ocean fisheries inch ever closer to complete collapse? Are we are helping our ocean fisheries inch ever closer to complete collapse?

Mark Williams argues that anglers need to tread carefully when claiming to care about fish and fisheries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


There will not be one angler on this website who would not claim to be a conservationist.


The answer to the question might vary if cormorants and otters were mentioned, but all of us, I think, would say we’re conservationists of fish. We all care what happens to both our river and coastal fisheries. They matter to us all.


But we say that, and then we set off to our local trout fishery, or down to the carp lake, or even to the river and we very slightly undo all our best intentions. Sadly, anglers are as guilty as anyone of not reading the small print, and in doing so, we are helping our ocean fisheries inch ever closer to complete collapse.


How so?


Halibuts...Well, we’ll start with trout fisheries, stocked with fish fed to stockable size on thousands of tons of fishmeal pellets. Those fishmeal pellets come from a variety of sources, but one of the major contributors to the slurry of paste that goes to make them is the humble sandeel. Sandeels are the bedrock of all of our best angling; a favourite food for bass and turbot, mackerel and pollack.


Except that, in 2003, the North Sea fishery for them collapsed to a third the previous year’s tonnage, and has not recovered. Almost simultaneously, the breeding seabird populations in northern England and Scotland crashed by around 60%. Nobody knows what effect the sandeel collapse has had on fish stocks.


Of course, the halibut pellets we use on the hook are made from fishmeal, too, so even if we don’t fish for trout, we contribute to the demise of ‘baitfish’ stocks when we go barbel and carp fishing. And now there’s a new entrant to the angling market which undermines our claim to be ethical.


Krill are tiny shrimp which are one of the most important species in the Antarctic food chain. For centuries, nobody bothered to fish for them. But in the last 15 years, with other fish stocks disappearing, a vast fishery has emerged and millions of tons are now harvested from the southern oceans.


Already, in those 15 years, environmental organisations which, at first, supported krill fishing are ringing the alarm bells that this unregulated fishery is already out of control, threatening the entire food chain, not least of which are the whales, which famously feed on krill. Seabirds and Antarctic fish depend on krill, too.


So we may think we’re conservationists of fish but, of course, we are only partly right; when it suits us, we let those principles go and shrug our shoulders. And, I know, I am a sanctimonious git. You’re right, too, that anglers’ use of these products is a drop in the ocean compared to the tonnages used elsewhere.


But my point is, there are not an unlimited number of drops in the ocean. It looks as if we’ll only find out how many drops when the seas run dry of food…

 







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Comments (44 posted):

Paul Boote on 01/11/2013 11:36:45
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I believe that I kept screengrabs of some of the juicier stuff that followed my occasional, gentle and not in-yer-face postings of something very very similar to Mark's piece above on a whiskery site several years ago; with many of those who replied appearing to feel particularly aggrieved about my mentioning mass pellet-users, their weighing mats, Ten Commandments handling codes and contempt for anyone responsible for the slightest split dorsal, and apparent desire to see the immediate disappearance of certain predators. Oh well, can't win 'em all....
tiinker on 01/11/2013 11:51:47
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What you say in the article may well be true if so the answer is to stop fishing. But we all know that is not going to happen . So we will carry on doing what we do with maybe the vague hope it will carry on come what may.
Paul Boote on 01/11/2013 12:30:33
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I wonder which we'll run out of first though - oily fish for our pellets or oil for our cars? Or fish to fish for, maybe....?
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 13:01:52
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You don't need to be as abstract as to examine our baits to question our ethics and the "I care more than you" fish care arms race. The simple fact that we stick hooks in fish ensures hypocrisy if we shout too loudly about conservation and fish care. The best thing we could possibly do to aid fish care would be to desist in sticking hooks in them. Most anglers ideas of conservation are not the altruistic virtue they like to think. Anglers generally wish to conserve fish in a way that few others do, no bad thing, and not just for fish. They may also care for other aspects of the surrounding ecology. However, the prime reason is to ensure their future enjoyment and little else. Nothing wrong with that, but, at least be honest about it. The rest is just PR spin to make what we do more acceptable to the urban masses, that would happily see us go the way of the chaps in red coats that ride horses.
Paul Boote on 01/11/2013 13:10:41
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The rest is just PR spin to make what we do more acceptable to the urban masses, that would happily see us go the way of the chaps in red coats that ride horses. Wrong. The vast majority of the public do not mind us guys at all, just see us as harmless eccentrics. Look what (even) The Guardian had to say today about the new Tarrant TV offering: Chris Tarrant Goes Fishing, 7pm, Channel 5 Lucky Chris Tarrant. The self-confessed fishing nut gets a dream gig as he indulges his passion in the Maldives. As he waxes lyrical about the mighty wahoo fish, he makes everything sound as if he's giving the answers on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?. It's actually quite endearing and the scenery is beautiful, but the most refreshing thing is when Tarrant addresses the issue of whether fishing is cruel, before proudly holding his catch aloft and then throwing it back in the ocean. Hannah Verdier TV highlights 01/11/13 | Television & radio | The Guardian
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 13:17:24
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Wrong. The vast majority of the public do not mind us guys at all, just see us as harmless eccentrics. I'm not suggesting that they are actively seeking angling's demise in anything like the same way as foxhunting. However, if angling were banned tomorrow, most of the urbanite majority wouldn't bat an eyelid.
Paul Boote on 01/11/2013 13:20:42
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As with many other things that scarcely register with or affect the majority, Sam.
MarkTheSpark on 01/11/2013 13:42:27
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You don't need to be as abstract as to examine our baits to question our ethics and the "I care more than you" fish care arms race. The simple fact that we stick hooks in fish ensures hypocrisy if we shout too loudly about conservation and fish care. The best thing we could possibly do to aid fish care would be to desist in sticking hooks in them. You are confusing fish welfare with conservation, Sam. We all do our best to keep our individual fish as healthy as possible, but that's not what the comment was about; it's about preserving biodiversity - a much more important aim.
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 13:52:04
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You are confusing fish welfare with conservation, Sam. We all do our best to keep our individual fish as healthy as possible, but that's not what the comment was about; it's about preserving biodiversity - a much more important aim. I'm not confusing them, (hence "conservation and fish care") I just feel that they are inextricably linked in the mindset of modern angling. Part and parcel of the same effort to prove to the wider world just how much we care.
MarkTheSpark on 01/11/2013 14:02:39
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I'm not confusing them, (hence "conservation and fish care") I just feel that they are inextricably linked in the mindset of modern angling. Part and parcel of the same effort to prove to the wider world just how much we care. You may well be right, Sam, but it's time we all divorced the two permanently. We certainly seem to think a pond full of stocked carp is a more healthy fishery than a river with a natural stock of fish. Like saying a chicken farm is a better place to go birdwatching because you can't fail to see birds. I am at a critical point these days with regards eating fish. I am about to stop eating anything I don't catch myself. That, I believe, is how seriously we should be taking the state of the oceans. I was in Padstow two years ago, and on the quayside was a wetfish van, with loads of holidaymakers cooing about how the seafood in Cornwall is so good. But apart from a few mackerel, crab and mussels, there was not a single fish for sale which hadn't been caught somewhere else. It's a real crisis.
Peter Jacobs on 01/11/2013 14:05:05
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"Of course, the halibut pellets we use on the hook are made from fishmeal, too, so even if we don’t fish for trout, we contribute to the demise of ‘baitfish’ stocks when we go barbel and carp fishing. And now there’s a new entrant to the angling market which undermines our claim to be ethical." Now come on, I wonder just how many (or is that how few) hundreds or thoudands of tonnes get used by anglers in the course of a year as pellets? I would suggest that compared to the mountains of illegally caught, or hoovered up fishy resources just in Europe alone it would be a lot less than your example of a drop in a bucket. Even if I used pellet, which only happens probably twice a year, I certainly wouldn't be worried about the priciples to be totally honest. There are far more important things on this imperfect earth to become a Travel Agent for Guilt Trips about Mark.
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 14:17:07
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You may well be right, Sam, but it's time we all divorced the two permanently. We certainly seem to think a pond full of stocked carp is a more healthy fishery than a river with a natural stock of fish. Like saying a chicken farm is a better place to go birdwatching because you can't fail to see birds. There are plenty of examples of our double standards on this score. The example in the article and yours put our conservationist credentials to the test. That's before you even consider the much more contentious issues surrounding the various predators, be they of fin, feather or fur type. No matter what the rights or wrongs, it's a bit difficult to claim to be a genuine altruistic conservationist when calling for culls of anything. Genuine conservation doesn't stop with the particular species/type of plant/animal you are particularly interested in. Naturally, that should apply equally to those with a different, even opposing, agenda to our fishcentric outlook.
tiinker on 01/11/2013 14:19:49
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"Of course, the halibut pellets we use on the hook are made from fishmeal, too, so even if we don’t fish for trout, we contribute to the demise of ‘baitfish’ stocks when we go barbel and carp fishing. And now there’s a new entrant to the angling market which undermines our claim to be ethical." Now come on, I wonder just how many (or is that how few) hundreds or thoudands of tonnes get used by anglers in the course of a year as pellets? I would suggest that compared to the mountains of illegally caught, or hoovered up fishy resources just in Europe alone it would be a lot less than your example of a drop in a bucket. Even if I used pellet, which only happens probably twice a year, I certainly wouldn't be worried about the priciples to be totally honest. There are far more important things on this imperfect earth to become a Travel Agent for Guilt Trips about Mark. If I felt guilty about my fishing then I would pack it in we go fishing for our own enjoyment and that is a end to it. What we do as anglers is up to us as individuals. Why worry what other people think and do just do your own thing.
MarkTheSpark on 01/11/2013 14:24:58
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"Of course, the halibut pellets we use on the hook are made from fishmeal, too, so even if we don’t fish for trout, we contribute to the demise of ‘baitfish’ stocks when we go barbel and carp fishing. And now there’s a new entrant to the angling market which undermines our claim to be ethical." Now come on, I wonder just how many (or is that how few) hundreds or thoudands of tonnes get used by anglers in the course of a year as pellets? I would suggest that compared to the mountains of illegally caught, or hoovered up fishy resources just in Europe alone it would be a lot less than your example of a drop in a bucket. Even if I used pellet, which only happens probably twice a year, I certainly wouldn't be worried about the priciples to be totally honest. There are far more important things on this imperfect earth to become a Travel Agent for Guilt Trips about Mark. In think I acknowledged the small effect angling may have on these issues, but they are issues. And there are few issues I think more important than the health of the world's oceans (or any other habitat, for that matter). As for principles, they aren't a question of degree; that's kind of the point with principles. So you compromise a principle of not wanting to contribute to industrial fishing (assuming you have one) even if you use one pellet, or catch one stocked trout. More to the point, the article is to draw the problem of over-fishing to the attention of FM readers. ---------- Post added at 14:24 ---------- Previous post was at 14:23 ---------- If I felt guilty about my fishing then I would pack it in we go fishing for our own enjoyment and that is a end to it. What we do as anglers is up to us as individuals. Why worry what other people think and do just do your own thing. My mate the badger baiter said the same thing.... ;)
The bad one on 01/11/2013 15:34:17
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Mark I see and recognise the laudable issue and points you are trying to make, but here’s the problem for the ethical angler who may not wish to contribute further to the problem. There is fishmeal out there that comes from sustainable sources, after all it’s waste product that can’t be sold as fish product for human consumption, but we are denied information by the manufacturers, suppliers, tackle trade and shops out there, which it is and whether they are partly, whole using it. This might be our fault as the body angling for not asking where the pellet we us comes from. Sustainable or unsustainable sources and refusing the latter to bring pressure down on the tackle shops and trade to source only pellet from the former. As we know consumer pressure if targeted in coherent way changes attitudes throughout the whole chain of products. Hugh Fernley being a case in point as far as fish go. One for the ATr and HFW perhaps?
sagalout on 01/11/2013 15:37:06
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We (the human race) can't conserve because there are to many of us. We will continue to use all natural resources until we cannot survive. Before you congratulate yourself because you only use sweetcorn or bread just remember that would feed a starving person, or the £3 you spent on maggots this week would have provided food for two starving kids for a week. There just ain't enough to go round.
MarkTheSpark on 01/11/2013 15:39:43
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Mark I see and recognise the laudable issue and points you are trying to make, but here’s the problem for the ethical angler who may not wish to contribute further to the problem. There is fishmeal out there that comes from sustainable sources, after all it’s waste product that can’t be sold as fish product for human consumption, but we are denied information by the manufacturers, suppliers, tackle trade and shops out there, which it is and whether they are partly, whole using it. This might be our fault as the body angling for not asking where the pellet we us comes from. Sustainable or unsustainable sources and refusing the latter to bring pressure down on the tackle shops and trade to source only pellet from the former. As we know consumer pressure if targeted in coherent way changes attitudes throughout the whole chain of products. Hugh Fernley being a case in point as far as fish go. One for the ATr and HFW perhaps? Awareness is half the battle, and maybe ATr could do a little more to bring this up, after all it is a sea fishing issue.
james on 01/11/2013 16:44:20
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If I felt guilty about my fishing then I would pack it in we go fishing for our own enjoyment and that is a end to it. What we do as anglers is up to us as individuals. Why worry what other people think and do just do your own thing. ... ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons? Every foodchain has it's weak points. The fish we harvest for food are usually somewhere up that chain, and so the impacts are limited only to higher predators. However, take out from the base of the food pyramid, and it spells big trouble for lots of other species, not just fish. I've seen how reductions in sandeel populations directly affects seabirds like shag and puffin. I'd love to see a kite mark reassuring us that our baits are coming from sustainable sources. There is something fundamentally not right about using ground-up, sometimes endangered marine species as a bait so we can catch coarse fish - just to throw them back.
laguna on 01/11/2013 18:22:01
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There is a slow but definite shift in aquaculture from fishmeal protein to chicken and fish bi-products, not because of any conscientious reason, more to do with shortages and the increasing expense. Unfortunately not many anglers will accept this new fandangled protein and will continue to insist on a 'proper' bait! China is the real culprit for the global decline of fish stocks, they buy up any and all surplus catches and stock pile, Peruvian anchovy (the world's most heavily exploited fish) a case in point... even El Niño years dont stop them
geoffmaynard on 01/11/2013 20:14:31
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I think the 'Kite mark' idea for sustainable sourced pellet is a very worthy idea and one we should promote. It might be a drop in the ocean but its an idea which could spread and become huge. Nice to see a bit of brain storming rather than back-biting on the forums. How do we start? Letters to the ATr? Start an online petition?
geoffmaynard on 01/11/2013 20:14:31
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I think the 'Kite mark' idea for sustainable sourced pellet is a very worthy idea and one we should promote. It might be a drop in the ocean but its an idea which could spread and become huge. Nice to see a bit of brain storming rather than back-biting on the forums. How do we start? Letters to the ATr? Start an online petition?
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 20:39:31
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Geoff, the basic idea might be worthy, but I suspect it's flawed for two reasons. The first has been brought up already, angler's use of fishmeal is likely to be, excuse the phrase, a drop in the ocean. Secondly, I'd suspect that the suppliers of said items would be only too keen to provide, alongside a hefty price hike. There'd also be a rather large suspicion that the pellets provided would remain exactly the same, just repackaged.
geoffmaynard on 01/11/2013 20:47:33
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Thats the glass half-empty approach :) How about doing it the other way. Chairman Mao said the longest journey starts with but a single step
The bad one on 01/11/2013 23:57:29
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Agree Geoff half empty. You'll note I referenced HFW along with ATr, that was no coincidence for this reason. Sustainable fish is his bag and a very big one at that. We consume large quantities of farmed fish in the UK, trout (along with stocking them in put and take fisheries), salmon, bass etc. HFW clearly understands "sustainability" in all it's forms, with him involved and the profile he could give the matter of farmed fish being fed unsustainable pellet, which after all is where the main sales and bulk of it is going to. I'd suspect the industry very quickly would start to move on it. Fully accept the price would increase but a price worth paying in my view. I pay it now for the sustainable fish I eat. As to the companies repackaging it, it's illegal to sell something as something it is not. It fraud pain and simple! And there are many templates of successful tractability schemes to keep the Conmen away, FSC Wood, Red Tractor scheme, etc.
tiinker on 02/11/2013 06:51:03
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In think I acknowledged the small effect angling may have on these issues, but they are issues. And there are few issues I think more important than the health of the world's oceans (or any other habitat, for that matter). As for principles, they aren't a question of degree; that's kind of the point with principles. So you compromise a principle of not wanting to contribute to industrial fishing (assuming you have one) even if you use one pellet, or catch one stocked trout. More to the point, the article is to draw the problem of over-fishing to the attention of FM readers. ---------- Post added at 14:24 ---------- Previous post was at 14:23 ---------- My mate the badger baiter said the same thing.... ;) How can you preach one thing and have a mate who is a badger baiter, please do not make me laugh you want your cake and eat it. ---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:39 ---------- ... ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons? Every foodchain has it's weak points. The fish we harvest for food are usually somewhere up that chain, and so the impacts are limited only to higher predators. However, take out from the base of the food pyramid, and it spells big trouble for lots of other species, not just fish. I've seen how reductions in sandeel populations directly affects seabirds like shag and puffin. I'd love to see a kite mark reassuring us that our baits are coming from sustainable sources. There is something fundamentally not right about using ground-up, sometimes endangered marine species as a bait so we can catch coarse fish - just to throw them back. Anyone with any common sense knows how a food chain works but do you honestly think that what ever you say or do will make one penny worth of difference in the long run especially as the majority of the human race do not give a fig as long as they have a job and food on there table. Your aims are right but do you think you can change the way of the world I think not.
Paul Boote on 02/11/2013 09:49:25
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Anyone with any common sense knows how a food chain works but do you honestly think that what ever you say or do will make one penny worth of difference in the long run especially as the majority of the human race do not give a fig as long as they have a job and food on there table. Your aims are right but do you think you can change the way of the world I think not. This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper. An "I'm all right, Jack" whimper as T.S. Eliot didn't write in the concluding lines of his great poem, The Hollow Men. Time, I fear, is running out for Man if he doesn't soon get a very firm grip. He - we - especially those of the Baby Boomer generation - BBC News - A Point of View: Should the baby boomers leave the stage? - for a very long time and until very recently could afford to let things ride, take a live today, forget tomorrow ... Manana ... in the long run, we're all dead approach to life, but now....? A very small matter, the pellets we put on our hooks, yet still symptomatic of a far greater, ultimately hugely destructive, head in the sand, "It isn't happening" selfishness. This from a great and lifelong optimist -- "Things can be fixed if we pull our collective and individual fingers out...." - still am.
tiinker on 02/11/2013 10:14:11
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This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper. An "I'm all right, Jack" whimper as T.S. Eliot didn't write in the concluding lines of his great poem, The Hollow Men. Time, I fear, is running out for Man if he doesn't soon get a very firm grip. He - we - especially those of the Baby Boomer generation - BBC News - A Point of View: Should the baby boomers leave the stage? - for a very long time and until very recently could afford to let things ride, take a live today, forget tomorrow ... Manana ... in the long run, we're all dead approach to life, but now....? A very small matter, the pellets we put on our hooks, yet still symptomatic of a far greater, ultimately hugely destructive, head in the sand, "It isn't happening" selfishness. This from a great and lifelong optimist -- "Things can be fixed if we pull our collective and individual fingers out...." - still am. I have been pulling my finger out most of my life and as you say if more people give it a go something could be done . but in your heart of hearts you know it will not happen. Peoples attitudes have hardened even more in recent years. It is mostly about self these days people only have time for themselves you only have to look at the state of society in general and the way it is going. What ever the caring people do it is cancelled out by the uncaring majority and that is fact. I have seen the effect of the taking of sandeels ect. from the seas around our own coast over the last 40 years and when they are all but gone the netters will find another specie to wipe out.
geoffmaynard on 02/11/2013 21:23:12
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Nobody would argue with what you have witnessed Tinker, we've all seen it too. But we've also all seen the power of modern communications uniting disparate groups and achieving common aims. We don't need everyone to support a campaign, just enough to make the campaign an issue. Once it becomes an issue it works like a snowball rolling down a hill. TBOs HFW campaign is a great example and one the sustainable pellet idea can hitch a ride on. He's done half the work for us! ---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:21 ---------- Phil - I remember a conversation once where I was told it takes 16lb of fish to make one pound of pellet. Is that correct?
nogoodboyo on 02/11/2013 21:43:19
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I've often wondered about the consequences of hordes of anglers turning up at a gravel pit and raking the swims. And the impact it may have on the food chain. But maybe that's for another thread.
The bad one on 02/11/2013 23:35:16
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Seem to remember that figure being about right last time we discussed this issue Geoff
Titus on 03/11/2013 00:50:05
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Det. Thorn: I know, Sol, you've told me a hundred times before. People were better, the world was better... Sol: Ah, people were always lousy... But there was a world, once. [Thorn chuckles] Sol: I was there, I can prove it! When I was a kid, you could buy meat anywhere! Eggs they had, real butter! Not this... ****!
Paul Boote on 03/11/2013 01:46:33
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Always a Broken Something - Country, Nation, Society, Education System, even Pastime, whatever - or a now-lost Golden Age (that never actually existed) - in some people's eyes. Beware spinning, defeatist and defeating cynics; they're always privately doing quite nicely, thank you, and don't want "the rest" or anyone else doing so. Foot (not my own, mind you), gun, shoot it.
tiinker on 03/11/2013 07:29:17
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Nobody would argue with what you have witnessed Tinker, we've all seen it too. But we've also all seen the power of modern communications uniting disparate groups and achieving common aims. We don't need everyone to support a campaign, just enough to make the campaign an issue. Once it becomes an issue it works like a snowball rolling down a hill. TBOs HFW campaign is a great example and one the sustainable pellet idea can hitch a ride on. He's done half the work for us! ---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:21 ---------- Phil - I remember a conversation once where I was told it takes 16lb of fish to make one pound of pellet. Is that correct? I am not sure about the last bit. But when I used to buy 25 kilo bags of fish meal, sand eel especially by the time you riddled off the rubbish you lost at least three kilo. You can say what you like nothing concrete will come of it besides you giving it your best shot .
MarkTheSpark on 03/11/2013 13:36:13
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Nobody would argue with what you have witnessed Tinker, we've all seen it too. But we've also all seen the power of modern communications uniting disparate groups and achieving common aims. We don't need everyone to support a campaign, just enough to make the campaign an issue. Once it becomes an issue it works like a snowball rolling down a hill. TBOs HFW campaign is a great example and one the sustainable pellet idea can hitch a ride on. He's done half the work for us! ---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:21 ---------- Phil - I remember a conversation once where I was told it takes 16lb of fish to make one pound of pellet. Is that correct? You're quite right, Geoff. To be honest, I'm a bit fed up with the hand-wringers who say 'but what difference will it make?' What they're really saying is 'I can't be bothered to do anything.' That angling's tiny use of these products won't end industrial fishing is clear, but making a stand against it and demanding that manufacturers tell us what their pellets are made of would draw attention to this issue.
Paul Boote on 03/11/2013 13:48:03
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I have long called it "Doing a Nero", Mark - as in "Fishing whilst our Rome burns".
tiinker on 03/11/2013 16:35:29
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You're quite right, Geoff. To be honest, I'm a bit fed up with the hand-wringers who say 'but what difference will it make?' What they're really saying is 'I can't be bothered to do anything.' That angling's tiny use of these products won't end industrial fishing is clear, but making a stand against it and demanding that manufacturers tell us what their pellets are made of would draw attention to this issue. No hand wringing just realistic I think it is yourself that is doing the hand wringing and wasting your time if you honestly think you can change the way the world works.
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) on 03/11/2013 16:53:26
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I thought it was people that DO change the way the world works and usually starts with one strong minded person to get things going.
tiinker on 03/11/2013 18:20:52
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I thought it was people that DO change the way the world works and usually starts with one strong minded person to get things going. Yes your dead right but it is usually a women. Like the wife.
sam vimes on 03/11/2013 19:06:15
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I suspect that it's little different to the whole Fair Trade concept. An entirely worthy proposition that is subject to the whims of the market and just how much excess money is available to them. I make no bones about it, I'd happily see sustainable source angling pellet, it's a laudable objective. However, at even ten percent more expensive, I'd doubt that I could afford to support it, unless it became the only option. Even then, the reality might well be that I'd simply stop using the small quantity of pellet that I currently do.
james on 04/11/2013 14:03:10
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...do you honestly think that what ever you say or do will make one penny worth of difference in the long run especially as the majority of the human race do not give a fig as long as they have a job and food on there table. Your aims are right but do you think you can change the way of the world I think not. Yes to both questions. However, I am not naive. I realised quite early in life that to be successful in being a catalyst for change, you need to change the system from within. You are quite entitled to your opinion, and I am not knocking it, but fortunately for the human race, not everyone thinks like you. Amazingly, that's how progress happens. I remember some scouse bloke singing... You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
tiinker on 04/11/2013 14:07:51
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Yes to both questions. However, I am not naive. I realised quite early in life that to be successful in being a catalyst for change, you need to change the system from within. You are quite entitled to your opinion, and I am not knocking it, but fortunately for the human race, not everyone thinks like you. Amazingly, that's how progress happens. I remember some scouse bloke singing... You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one You are knocking it and why the red ink on the parts you wish to take out off context. but it all in red or leave it alone.
james on 05/11/2013 09:43:25
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You are knocking it and why the red ink on the parts you wish to take out off context. but it all in red or leave it alone. First barbel police, now highlighter police! :eek:
Paul Boote on 05/11/2013 09:47:37
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Occasional and imaginative use of colour and mega font size I found used to pretty well derange super serious and literal-minded sorts on one forum some years ago.
james on 05/11/2013 10:17:51
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Occasional and imaginative use of colour and mega font size I found used to pretty well derange super serious and literal-minded sorts on one forum some years ago. EXCELLENT advice Paul!


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