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A Few Points to Ponder...

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Some of you are clearly concerned about the fact that the Angling Trust’s policies do not exactly match your own interests. So what? Some of you are clearly concerned about the fact that the Angling Trust’s policies do not exactly match your own interests. So what?

Rod Sturdy is back with a few points to air and issues to raise following his last FishingMagic feature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a follow-up to my last piece A Million Voices for Angling I would like to deal with a few points and comments which emerged from it, as set out below. I mention the points concerned, by the way, because I consider them significant, or because the arguments echo views I have heard elsewhere.


First off, I have been accused of failing to differentiate between defeatism and reality. In my understanding reality is something out there to be lived in and coped with; it is constantly changing so it is no use just saying to yourself that reality has changed, that’s what the real world does. So whereas most anglers forty or fifty years’ ago took up the sport as kids, many anglers now begin fishing in their early twenties, thirties or even later. Just because coach-loads of angling steelworkers no longer set out from Sheffield to fish every weekend, it does not mean that fishing is finished, just that its social context is different.


Joining a club and spending time fishing with kids is a very laudable thing; a great PR gesture on a personal level. But there also needs to be PR work at a political level. Lobbying and influencing politicians, not to mention stating your case in competition with other, possibly competing, water users and organisations, takes time and money, as well as the right contacts and expertise. You cannot achieve this except by mean of a strong representative body. If you do happen to have the relevant contacts and expertise, I am sure the Angling Trust would love to hear from you, by the way.


Also, who is to say there will not, at some stage, be a reaction amongst kids to the indoor, urban, internet-based lifestyle. I gather that this has actually taken place in France in recent years, and kids have been wanting to try outdoor activities again, of which fishing is just one. The same applies to ethnic and other minorities. Just because fishing does not form part of their culture, does not mean that things cannot change. I think quite a few politicians would back moves to provide funding to get them involved in activities like fishing, in the interests of a bit of cultural unity for a change.


The real point here is that if we have not already done the political lobbying and extolled the merits of fishing and its benefit to the environment and the economy, then the kids in question will be doing something else when they finally get outdoors: climbing, walking, football or whatever; many of them may be in canoes ploughing through your carefully chosen, baited swim!


Having first got politicians (and they keep changing, and so do their policies – also part of democratic reality) to appreciate the value of angling, we need to keep up the momentum on them in a number of areas: encouraging people to fish, combating pollution, fighting local angling bans, you name it…


Defeatism, on the other hand, is an attitude of mind. It is the psychological state which means that we end up doing nothing, and just waiting for things to take their course, which they surely will if we do nothing. A worrying number of anglers have this attitude. Even worse is apathy: just shutting your mind to what is happening and not really caring because there are certain issues which anglers must be seen to be taking an interest in and questioning.


Fracking is one such issue.


Anglers must be seen to be taking an interest in this process. It produces cheap energy and will, it is true, free us in the long run from dependency on the likes of Gazprom. However, it is also a process which carries high risks: of pollution and accident. The USA has discovered this already. There is limited scope in the UK without risk. If there is no objection to it, then we may be left shouting after the event when prime bits of river or premier stillwaters are polluted through contamination of groundwater. Frankly, if fracking is eventually confined to the least damage-prone geographical areas, this will be a considerable result for us. It is clearly set to go ahead. The political and economic pressures for it to happen are quite irresistible. And if it is done in an unrestricted manner, then it could lead to considerable damage to the environment.


I think somebody expressed reservations about large, strong organisations, quoting the example of the RSPCA. True, the RSPCA appears to have grown too big for its boots. The BBC recently did a ‘Face the Facts’ programme (Radio 4) on the RSPCA and its authoritarian attitudes and bullying tactics. (Its stated anti-angling policy did not feature in the programme, but then angling never gets a mention, does it?) Imagine a programme in the same series taking the Angling Trust to task for having grown too powerful and abusing its position! I think it will be a long time at this rate before that happens…So worry about that when we are big and strong enough!


This brings me back to the RSPB, which as I said before has more angling members than there are individual anglers who have joined the Angling Trust. The RSPB also has more members than the total number of all UK political parties. But of course at the same time the RSPB exercises more influence on politicians than virtually any other organisation…


Actually, I think the latter attitude stems more from a distrust of politicians and political parties – which in itself is quite a healthy mindset. But if it means that we do not speak to politicians and try to influence them, then it becomes another form of defeatism, a trick which we can ill afford to miss.


Some of you are clearly concerned about the fact that the Angling Trust’s policies do not exactly match your own interests. So what?  Is there any reason why angler-members who find fault with a particular Angling Trust line on a specific issue cannot express their thoughts on the subject to the Angling Trust? The important issue in my view is that we are all anglers, and an attack against a particular group of anglers is an attack against all. There is also the point that if I support/employ someone to look after my interests, I do not tell him what to think or how to go about his business. I trust his professional judgement, and back him to get on with the job.


So there we are. I hope I’ve given you a few things to think about.


Oh, and just one more thing, please stop referring to me as ‘Ron’!







By the Same Author



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Comments (80 posted):

Paul Boote on 28/10/2013 11:56:18
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One comment and one comment only: the RSPCA and RSPB are only "too big for their boots" in the eyes of those, a wealthy but no longer so powerful minority, they have held to account and greatly enraged and discomfited. Little to do Angling, lots to do with other stuff.
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) on 28/10/2013 11:56:56
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Some good points there Rob.
steph mckenzie on 28/10/2013 13:16:54
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Thanks for that Ron, still didn't quite see what the point was all about, or was it a long winded way of saying you think that all anglers should join the Angling Trust. Still, it was interesting to see your thoughts.
geoffmaynard on 28/10/2013 13:37:53
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Thanks for that Ron :) Perhaps someone should start an RSPB angling section and ally with the ATr? then start the Angling Party and get get Ron/d elected as PM?
john step on 28/10/2013 14:06:51
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I do wholeheartedly agree with the point that just because you don't agree with every single Trust policy you shouldn't join. JUST JOIN FOR GOODNESS SAKE. They have angling interests as the main focal point. No one else has!!!
steph mckenzie on 28/10/2013 14:42:19
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Here we go again ......
The bad one on 28/10/2013 17:35:41
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"Is there any reason why angler-members who find fault with a particular Angling Trust line on a specific issue cannot express their thoughts on the subject to the Angling Trust?" Rod, I did over three issues, all of which were dismissed, so I dismissed them from making claims on what's in my wallet! And that's the way it will stay until those policies are reversed and dropped. And before you think I'm being unreasonable, for over 25 years I supported specialist angling both financially and with unpaid work. So it can't be said I'm a "Johnny come new boy!" can it! Unlike you (never heard of you in any national fishing circles until you appeared on here) who pontificates from behind articles only. And can't or won't engage in debate on the forum you choose to publish your pontifications on. How strange!!!!!
Paul Boote on 28/10/2013 17:49:49
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You know, I've always felt that Britain's Fishy and Rural Worthies missed the boat by not burying the Priest and coming together. A selling and serving suggestion from Me: Wild Angling Salmon Trout Trust Hate Coarse Fisher Oik Predators Alliance. You wouldn't have any more members than you have already, but it would good honest fun....
laguna on 28/10/2013 18:33:34
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A defeatist attitude never achieved anything, procrastination does not make things happen sooner, ostrich syndrome does not make things 'disappear', and Cynicism is highly infectious. Will the ATR ever win the hearts and minds of the majority? Perhaps they could start by asking those RSPB fishers why they only subscribe to be dicky bird watchers? Oh, and just one more thing, please stop referring to me as ‘Ron’! Right you are Mr Sturdy! You know, I've always felt that Britain's Fishy and Rural Worthies missed the boat by not burying the Priest and coming together. It certainly got everyone's back up, same reason why I mainly fish for trash.
nicepix on 28/10/2013 20:44:45
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If Rod Sturdy want so start a debate then he should have the good grace to participate in that debate rather than put his point across, sit it out for a couple of weeks then deal with the comments highhandedly rather like a teacher marking homework. Just another moralistic attempt to try and get people to join the Angling Trust :omg:
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) on 28/10/2013 21:01:49
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He was at his best when he wrote 'I am sailing'
the blanker on 28/10/2013 22:34:47
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The photograph at the beginning of the article with a caption ending in so what sums it up for me, is that just your view Mr Sturdy or is that the view of the trust as well ? So what indicates to me that you think it doesn't matter what an angler thinks they should just join and hand over their cash anyway, not going to happen i'm afraid. ---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:21 ---------- If Rod Sturdy want so start a debate then he should have the good grace to participate in that debate rather than put his point across, sit it out for a couple of weeks then deal with the comments highhandedly rather like a teacher marking homework. Just another moralistic attempt to try and get people to join the Angling Trust :omg: As far as I can see from the members list he isn't a member unless he is under another name.
nicepix on 29/10/2013 07:23:28
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The photograph at the beginning of the article with a caption ending in so what sums it up for me, is that just your view Mr Sturdy or is that the view of the trust as well ? So what indicates to me that you think it doesn't matter what an angler thinks they should just join and hand over their cash anyway, not going to happen i'm afraid. ---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:21 ---------- As far as I can see from the members list he isn't a member unless he is under another name. In that case then I shall not participate in any further threads related to Rod Sturdy. As you rightly point out; if this is an authorised stance of the Angling Trust then it should be made clear. If they are the personal view of one man then I am not going to be dictated to by someone who has seized the high moral ground just because it suits his case. It's about time the Angling Trust supporters realised that it has to earn the right to angler's money on its own merits. Not just because they think its a good idea.
tiinker on 29/10/2013 07:55:36
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I am a member of the angling trust and I think they are getting on with the job of speaking out for angling in general. I do not get involved into the in depth pro's and con's but what is the reason some anglers speak out against it. Has it done anything to the detriment of angling in this country if not what is the reason for so many arguments / debates about this body. I just pay my money because I think it will help angling in general as soon as I think differently I will put the money else where..
steph mckenzie on 29/10/2013 09:28:07
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Tiinker, i think you will find that hardly anyone is against you or other people joining the Angling Trust, what they are against is, said members almost demanding that non members join or they will be responsible for the ruin and even death of fishing in this country. I would like to see very bit of spare cash go to a charitable cause to benefit Cancer Research or such like charities that can benefit everyone, but, it would be unreasonable of me to expect everyone to do so. Just because i fish does not mean that i have to support the Angling Trust, but, for some you would think that i had just committed treason or worse.
Paul Boote on 29/10/2013 09:49:57
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Yes, Steph. Reminds me of a certain rural sports organization that hectored Anglers in the early to mid 2000s with a scaremongering not to mention untruthful "Join us. You'll be next" message, getting one notable British fly fisher and one notable, since rather discredited, British coarse chappie to front their campaign that featured ads in magazines like the defunct Coarse Fisherman complete with a photo of a balaclava-ed and baseball bat-wielding generic "Anti". Sorry, but two up from me to all who push fishers about for their own selfish aims and gains.
tiinker on 29/10/2013 11:15:39
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Tiinker, i think you will find that hardly anyone is against you or other people joining the Angling Trust, what they are against is, said members almost demanding that non members join or they will be responsible for the ruin and even death of fishing in this country. I would like to see very bit of spare cash go to a charitable cause to benefit Cancer Research or such like charities that can benefit everyone, but, it would be unreasonable of me to expect everyone to do so. Just because i fish does not mean that i have to support the Angling Trust, but, for some you would think that i had just committed treason or worse. I see and understand what you have said and as you say it is up to you what you do with your money. If other people have an opinion they can voice it the same as you voice yours. But it does not explain why non members criticise the Angling trust as a whole when they do some very good work for angling as a whole. Give credit where credit is due surely why knock what it is trying to do. ---------- Post added at 04:15 ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 ---------- Yes, Steph. Reminds me of a certain rural sports organization that hectored Anglers in the early to mid 2000s with a scaremongering not to mention untruthful "Join us. You'll be next" message, getting one notable British fly fisher and one notable, since rather discredited, British coarse chappie to front their campaign that featured ads in magazines like the defunct Coarse Fisherman complete with a photo of a balaclava-ed and baseball bat-wielding generic "Anti". Sorry, but two up from me to all who push fishers about for their own selfish aims and gains. Is what the charities do with their emotional advertising these days any different. But they still do some great work. Why people can not just look at what good work they are doing instead of knocking the organization at every chance they get have they harmed fishing in any way, not that I know of.
geoffmaynard on 29/10/2013 11:17:12
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It's about time the Angling Trust supporters realised that it has to earn the right to angler's money on its own merits. Not just because they think its a good idea. High moral ground Nicey? :)
Paul Boote on 29/10/2013 11:37:51
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I see and understand what you have said and as you say it is up to you what you do with your money. If other people have an opinion they can voice it the same as you voice yours. But it does not explain why non members criticise the Angling trust as a whole when they do some very good work for angling as a whole. Give credit where credit is due surely why knock what it is trying to do. ---------- Post added at 04:15 ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 ---------- Is what the charities do with their emotional advertising these days any different. But they still do some great work. Why people can not just look at what good work they are doing instead of knocking the organization at every chance they get have they harmed fishing in any way, not that I know of. I have first-hand experience of dealing with some of these "charities", tinker. Let's just say that they're very selective about just who they let in to their little People Like Us controlling groups, or even have a non-exective say about how things might be done, becoming hyper-paranoid about anyone non-pigeonhole-able and very soon going into balls-out attack mode if a member happens to be not Just Like Us. Now, to me, that says something, quite a lot, about those people and their charities, inclines me to think they're mere jobs for the boys, few chiefs and a whole load of silent, subservient subscription-paying Indians, fly by night outfits. And I don't treat with such sorts, never have.
tiinker on 29/10/2013 13:40:45
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I have first-hand experience of dealing with some of these "charities", tinker. Let's just say that they're very selective about just who they let in to their little People Like Us controlling groups, or even have a non-exective say about how things might be done, becoming hyper-paranoid about anyone non-pigeonhole-able and very soon going into balls-out attack mode if a member happens to be not Just Like Us. Now, to me, that says something, quite a lot, about those people and their charities, inclines me to think they're mere jobs for the boys, few chiefs and a whole load of silent, subservient subscription-paying Indians, fly by night outfits. And I don't treat with such sorts, never have. I am sorry but you have lost me .What has what you have said got to do with the work that the Angling Trust is doing I do not see the connection
geoffmaynard on 29/10/2013 16:36:12
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I understand completely - but I wouldn't group the ATr in with the faction that PB is talking about. I know a lot of people connected/workign for the ATr and to a man they are honest, hardworking and passionate about what they are doing. This is NOT a jobs for the boys outfit Paul.
Graham Elliott 3 on 29/10/2013 16:46:12
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I am going to join the Angling Trust from next season. Not because of what "Those" before (now gone TG) or what Ron says in trying to intimitate me. But because of what Will B said and also because I think they need someone like me to help them with decision making.;) I don't think many of the top boys actually go fishing so hopefully I can help....I await the call.....
Judas Priest on 29/10/2013 17:36:27
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Well I won't be joining the ATr. If it's good enough for Elliott then I'm keeping my money in my pocket. Lol Either these constant dragging up of "join the ATr now" articles are because the authors wish to see their names in lights, they are so stupid they cannot see it's been done to death and gets the ATR absolutely nowhere, this is actually the Trusts only publicity machine, or it's a devilish plot by an opposing group determined to bring down the ATr by using these tactics to negate any good publicity they may acquire. Roll on another couple of months then we can debate the Close Season (again).
Graham Elliott 3 on 30/10/2013 07:57:03
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Judas Well I won't be joining the ATr. If it's good enough for Elliott then I'm keeping my money in my pocket. Lol :D:rolleyes::p
tiinker on 30/10/2013 08:16:34
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Whether anyone joins Angling Trust is up to them what I cannot understand is why having made the decision not to they then make a big issue out of not joining.
Paul Boote on 30/10/2013 09:29:08
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It's the repeated, at times barely coherent, admonitory "Join or else" stuff that has got people's backs up, I reckon. Over to you Groucho... ' I sent the club a wire stating, "PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER".' Telegram to the Friar's Club of Beverly Hills to which Groucho Marx belonged, as recounted in Groucho and Me (1959)
markg on 30/10/2013 11:47:47
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The Angling Trust needs to learn how to appeal to the ordinary pleasure angler. I am sure they are the biggest majority. I just think it fails to do that. Part of the RSPB's success lays in it ability to appeal to the ordinary bird watcher. They have probably developed that over the years and are quite clever at it. Thats the trouble with Rods article, and many like them, it is not speaking to the people he wants to join the AT.
Paul Boote on 30/10/2013 12:43:52
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Very much so, mark. To use a birdwatching analogy, the RSPB maintained its appeal to BIRDLOVERS of every colour and stripe, from the pensioner looking at the garden birds from the window of their retirement bungalow to the people who have seen and done everything, didn't allow itself to be taken over by the hard-core, often stroke-pulling, obsessive, borderline fanatical Twitchers who'll drop anything they're doing and arrive en masse at any spot, however far away, when a real rarity has touched land or been sighted, just to get another tick in their bulging notebooks or tablets. Angling, however, for perhaps the past twenty to thirty years, has tended to champion the freakish and excessive - size, extreme, destination, gentrification and snobbery, mega carp, mega barbel etc - sought to normalize the somewhat piscatorially aberrant - mags, tackle firms, agents, fishery owners, media and other entities all playing a large part in this. Little wonder that a lot of Ordinary Joes have voted with their feet, given up or not taken up the pastime as many in very recent earlier generations - their fathers, uncles and mates' Dads etc - once did. Some detoxifying of the Angling brand is necessary, chaps. PS - I am not referring to the ATr here, but the British Angling World in general, coarse and game. A lot less about kit, mega egos and fame, must-do places and species, more about making it accessible and attractive to all sorts of people. Oh yeah, and a lot less dissing and warring.
sam vimes on 30/10/2013 12:50:46
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Whether anyone joins Angling Trust is up to them what I cannot understand is why having made the decision not to they then make a big issue out of not joining. If people would stop trying to make out that non-members are leeches, inferior anglers, irresponsible, don't care etc etc, I'd make no comment on the ATr, as I'm generally trying hard not to. (I don't actually doubt the good intentions of the ATr) Even without this kind of negative encouragement, I can find a few reasons to withold my support. Add in the seemingly constant hectoring, even if it's not actually official, I start digging my heels in. As a recruitment tool, it sucks.
geoffmaynard on 30/10/2013 13:06:23
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If people would stop trying to make out that non-members are leeches, inferior anglers, irresponsible, don't care etc etc, I'd make no comment on the ATr, as I'm generally trying hard not to ?? I don't think I've ever seen anything posted on here suggesting that? Most pro-Atr people are very passionate about trying to up the membership though, and that should be understandable. And the trust really shouldn't be judged on the actions of the odd extra-enthusiastic fan anyway. Their work speaks for itself.
bennygesserit on 30/10/2013 13:19:50
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?? I don't think I've ever seen anything posted on here suggesting that? Most pro-Atr people are very passionate about trying to up the membership though, and that should be understandable. And the trust really shouldn't be judged on the actions of the odd extra-enthusiastic fan anyway. Their work speaks for itself. Geoff from the OP article and articles by the same author are littered with the kind of jingoistic , patronising "its your fault" stuff that puts everyone's backs up.
sam vimes on 30/10/2013 13:31:35
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?? I don't think I've ever seen anything posted on here suggesting that? Most pro-Atr people are very passionate about trying to up the membership though, and that should be understandable. And the trust really shouldn't be judged on the actions of the odd extra-enthusiastic fan anyway. Their work speaks for itself. We'll have to beg to differ, I've seen plenty of examples of exactly that. There have been entire long running threads based on little more. I appreciate that such nonesense is usually from overly enthusiastic ordinary members, but not exclusively. As I said, it simply puts a tin lid on any doubts I may have about handing money over to an organization that, right or wrong, I have doubts about on a number of fronts. [url=http://www.fishingmagic.com/forums/fm-news-feature-comments/338684-cormorants-some-good-news-last.html]http://www.fishingmagic.com/forums/fm-news-feature-comments/338684-cormorants-some-good-news-last.html (Parasites, leeches and more).
bennygesserit on 30/10/2013 13:38:23
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I like this quote from an article about otters by the same author "So who is to blame for this sorry state of affairs? Well, you are actually – yes, you the angler - because you have not made your voice heard properly."
tiinker on 30/10/2013 13:43:30
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If people would stop trying to make out that non-members are leeches, inferior anglers, irresponsible, don't care etc etc, I'd make no comment on the ATr, as I'm generally trying hard not to. (I don't actually doubt the good intentions of the ATr) Even without this kind of negative encouragement, I can find a few reasons to withold my support. Add in the seemingly constant hectoring, even if it's not actually official, I start digging my heels in. As a recruitment tool, it sucks. If you do not want to join just ignore what they have to say and that is that . you do not need to go over the why's and wherefores every time the angling trust comes up. I like lots of people get badgered by charities for a contribution I just say no thank you and that's it. I do not go into the why's and wherefores of what I think of the organisation who are asking for the umpteenth time.
sam vimes on 30/10/2013 14:05:20
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If you do not want to join just ignore what they have to say and that is that . you do not need to go over the why's and wherefores every time the angling trust comes up. I like lots of people get badgered by charities for a contribution I just say no thank you and that's it. I do not go into the why's and wherefores of what I think of the organisation who are asking for the umpteenth time. Indeed, but charities, or their representatives with begging bowls, don't usually attempt to goad or shame anyone into giving. They certainly don't resort to abusing those that refuse. However, your analogy doesn't stand close scrutiny. Look around at the amount of anti-RSPCA comment that's out there. You can safely assume that most of those commenting wouldn't pee on the RSPCA if it were on fire, let alone give them cash. They definitely aren't simply saying "no thanks" and walking away. I'd also point out that, whether the ATr has charitable status or not, it's claiming to be a representative body, not a real charity. It works both ways, I'm quite content to, and really want to, stay well away from ATr stuff. However, I'd quite like to see the abuse of non-members stop, regardless of from where it originates. Paying £25 gives no one the right to assume any kind of superiority over those that don't. Non-members may well be partly responsible for the failure of the ATr. That doesn't mean that they are inferior anglers, don't care about angling, are parasitical or any other of the vitriolic rubbish that has been aimed in their direction by supercilious members. P.S. I've said absolutely nothing about the ATr itself.
Paul Boote on 30/10/2013 14:13:04
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Excellent, Sam. Too many "Chuggers" - charity muggers - on our High Streets as it is, without them getting into Angling and doing a (Neil of The Young Ones) "Don't lay that guilt trip on me, man". As I was saying earlier today here, fix Angling first. Memberships will follow. Field of Dreams stuff.
laguna on 30/10/2013 14:26:01
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Regards the RSPB membership recruitment tank; twitcherydoo'ing is a non contact look for pleasure only hobby. angling by comparison is competitive man v man, man v fish to outwit and capture, haul out, admire and throw back or Barbie (depending on ones motives) Imagine ditching the bino's and fishing for birds with live hooks placed on branches. The RSPB's membership would plummet on moral grounds of objection by several thousand overnight, many more would distance themselves from association and the few remaining would be at the mercy of the anti's much the same as anglers are. The general public's perception of angling is one of barbarism (akin to baiting for birds in their eyes), and few if any appreciate the conservation work that is done by us or is done on behalf of our industry. If angling was a spectator sport and not so hands on, the task of marketing to garner new recruits would be far easier... but unfortunately it isn't. Even though many do admire fish and have aquariums, I don't know of any non anglers who go fish spotting with Polaroid's.
markg on 30/10/2013 15:28:26
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I just had a look at the RSPB homepage. All nicely understated. And they offer this Here's what you'll receive If you love nature, you'll love these! Your choice of free gift including Handbook of British Birds Free entry to over 100 nature reserves across the UK Nature's Home magazine, packed with seasonal features and stunning photos Member's pack full of ideas to help you make the most of your membership JOIN NOW from £3 a m Whats not too like ! For an average bird watcher. How about :- If you love fishing, you will love these Your choice of a free gift including a handbook of British Fish Free entry to over 100 fishing venues. Fishing magazine, packed with seasonal catches, tips and stunning photos. Memebership pack full of ideas to help you make the most of your membership. Join now for £3 a month. Whats not to like for an average pleasure angler? Well, why not, they can do it and it works for them.
the blanker on 30/10/2013 15:56:33
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Indeed, but charities, or their representatives with begging bowls, don't usually attempt to goad or shame anyone into giving. They certainly don't resort to abusing those that refuse. However, your analogy doesn't stand close scrutiny. Look around at the amount of anti-RSPCA comment that's out there. You can safely assume that most of those commenting wouldn't pee on the RSPCA if it were on fire, let alone give them cash. They definitely aren't simply saying "no thanks" and walking away. I'd also point out that, whether the ATr has charitable status or not, it's claiming to be a representative body, not a real charity. It works both ways, I'm quite content to, and really want to, stay well away from ATr stuff. However, I'd quite like to see the abuse of non-members stop, regardless of from where it originates. Paying £25 gives no one the right to assume any kind of superiority over those that don't. Non-members may well be partly responsible for the failure of the ATr. That doesn't mean that they are inferior anglers, don't care about angling, are parasitical or any other of the vitriolic rubbish that has been aimed in their direction by supercilious members. P.S. I've said absolutely nothing about the ATr itself. Absolutely agree Sam, our last 2 Bull Terriers have come from a Bull Terrier rescue, the one we have now has problems with his patella's we were told this when we adopted him and the rescue that is a charity told us when the problem became bad enough they would pay for the operation, that time has arrived and he is off to Sheffield in the morning for his treatment. At no time has the charity made me feel bad because they are paying, they have been helpful to a fault and haven't asked for anything. this is because they care and are funded by people that care, I shall be making a donation but not because they have badgered me into it but because I want to and as I see it that's the only way to get people to join anything I.E. get them to want to be a part.
steph mckenzie on 30/10/2013 16:00:46
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You could even fore go the Free Entry to 100 fishing venues and replace it with a free list of where it is free to fish anyway, i bet there is a load of waters scattered about. And you can watch birds for free as part of it.
geoffmaynard on 30/10/2013 16:32:57
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You could even fore go the Free Entry to 100 fishing venues and replace it with a free list of where it is free to fish anyway, i bet there is a load of waters scattered about. And you can watch birds for free as part of it. I bet there aren't. I think one of the main reasons for the decline in angling is becasue there are so few places where a youngster with no money can go and expect to catch a fish. So he takes up something else instead of fishing. All the venues which were free fishing around where I grew up are now club or private waters. and I'll bet that's mirrored all around the London suburbs.
nicepix on 30/10/2013 19:48:43
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I bet there aren't. I think one of the main reasons for the decline in angling is becasue there are so few places where a youngster with no money can go and expect to catch a fish. So he takes up something else instead of fishing. All the venues which were free fishing around where I grew up are now club or private waters. and I'll bet that's mirrored all around the London suburbs. Depends where you live and how resourceful you are. Back in Sth. Yorkshire I found loads of good free fishing but I never saw any youngsters fishing there. Out in Lincolnshire and further east a lot of the fishing is free, but again there aren't anywhere near the number of youngsters fishing than there used to be. My view about the decline of young anglers coming into the sport is that times and fashions have changed. When was the last time you saw a kid playing 'one kick' against a wall with a tennis ball? Or flying a kite? Things come and go and unfortunately angling and game shooting are on the decline. This is not a defeatist attitude. More of a realistic one. Maybe if we had Play Stations and Game Boys (or whatever they are called) available to us we might not have taken up the sport.
tiinker on 30/10/2013 20:13:33
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I think the reason for the decline in youngsters fishing is they do not do the things we did as youngsters . They live in another world if you gave them a sack and said go dragging and get some newts or here is a length of elastic and a old leather shoe tongue make a catty. They would think you were potty. With us it was different we spent most of our time outdoors and with water having the attraction it does for youngsters it was not long before we came across the fisherman and it was a natural progression from there on. These days the youngsters live in another world they have other interests that take them down other paths.
markg on 30/10/2013 22:22:47
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It must very difficult for youngsters or anyone else who just want to try fishing out these days compared to 40 or 50 years ago. I was ashamed a few years ago. I knew a little pond set just off a road that only held a few little rudd and kids used to go there to fish. Then one summer I passed it and there was a big club sign on it. Members only, Miserable sods. If a 100 top clubs around the country got together with the AT and offered 25% of there fishing for free to AT members. As an incentive they got to share £5 of the membership fees between them. Thats around £1500 a year each at present levels and with an increasing membership could increase to £5000 at a 100000 membership. Will never happen of course so; its just a thought.
laguna on 31/10/2013 00:47:36
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Free one day a week might be a good incentive. Pros and cons, but if the ATr published such a list it could encourage a few young newcomers into the sport? I started fishing with my mates as a young boy in 1968 aged 8 at my local park pond, (check out my profile if you want to know how to catch roach on a triple barbed hook) :D it was free but the larger lake was day ticket which I also fished about once a week out of my pocket money as it held bigger fish. But for the most part I fished free and learned 'my craft' (still learning) every day/evening over many months... Free is not necessarily a bad thing, its a 'promotional term' that eventually pays dividends.
tiinker on 31/10/2013 08:39:38
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In my area of east London Essex there is Rapheals park free fishing the river Ingrebourne and Beam the lower Roding from Debden and of course the Thames and public transport is free for school children. But they do not fish anymore Raephels park used to be shoulder to shoulder fishing even in the seventies these day it is fished by carp anglers and most of them are grown men with bait boats the lot. There are a dozen or so regulars the rest of the bank is deserted have not seen a youngster fishing it for years
steph mckenzie on 31/10/2013 09:15:14
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If youngsters do not take up the sport, eventually that will see the end of fishing as we know it ..... regardless of what ever club, syndicate or organisation we are members of. I have no idea what the answer to that problem is, other than to switch technology off until night time.
Peter Jacobs on 31/10/2013 09:48:44
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I wonder if there is a difference between children in rural areas as opposed to those in Towns and Cities? Where I live about 12 miles north of Salisbury I often see youngsters fishing on the free stretch of the Hampshie Avon as well as learning to cast a fly on some of the local lakes and rivers. My local clubs however seem to have much smaller Junior Sections though these days and I doubt that angling, in any of its' forms, will win over the more electronic pass times avaialble to this generation of children. Sad but I am sorry to say, true.
Paul Boote on 31/10/2013 09:55:29
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"No sneaking off to text behind a tree." Seems that a lot of people are desperate to get youngsters back outdooors now. 32 tips to get your kids back outdoors | Environment | theguardian.com PS - But when adults are themselves mere slaves to gadgets and TV.... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/29/tired-troubled-love-life-gadgets-bedroom-devices http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/oct/31/consumer-tastes-dictated-tv-john-lewis "Bring a fishing rod and make it snappy. I am going outside, and may be some time."
Peter Jacobs on 31/10/2013 10:06:39
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"No sneaking off to text behind a tree." Seems that a lot of people are desperate to get youngsters back outdooors now. 32 tips to get your kids back outdoors | Environment | theguardian.com Hhhhhmmmmn, sadly I cannot see either the Angling Trust or the Countryside Alliance in the listing of participating organisations . . . . . The Wild Network Organisations – Project Wild Thing We do run an awful lot of junior events in the CA in any event, but I'm just a little surprised not to see them taking part in this.
Paul Boote on 31/10/2013 10:08:22
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The great majority of parents would not want their chilldren to have anything to do with the CA, Peter. As for the Angling Trust - it has too small a media presence to register on the parental radar.
Peter Jacobs on 31/10/2013 10:14:45
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The great majority of parents would not want their chilldren to have anything to do with the CA, Peter. No idea why you would say that Paul. We have had family membership for many years, and locally the CA is still both very active and popular.
markg on 31/10/2013 10:19:50
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And how many youngsters on the forums these days. I don't know if that's an indication of how few fish but, it might be.
Paul Boote on 31/10/2013 10:35:31
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They're much too busy being Evil, it seems.... Children evil ---------- Post added at 10:35 ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 ---------- Then there are the first 140 high-profile Tweeters to be put against a wall... Britain's most influential tweeters - Telegraph
nicepix on 31/10/2013 18:24:27
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I wonder if there is a difference between children in rural areas as opposed to those in Towns and Cities? Where I live about 12 miles north of Salisbury I often see youngsters fishing on the free stretch of the Hampshie Avon as well as learning to cast a fly on some of the local lakes and rivers. My local clubs however seem to have much smaller Junior Sections though these days and I doubt that angling, in any of its' forms, will win over the more electronic pass times avaialble to this generation of children. Sad but I am sorry to say, true. Peter, I live in a very rural area and with more free fishing than anywhere I know in the UK. Good fishing too. But I've only seen three young anglers fishing in the last 18 months. It might be a different story in the 'Carpadromes.' I don't know as I haven't been to one, but the kids certainly don't fish the big public lakes or rivers.
tiinker on 31/10/2013 18:49:25
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Indeed, but charities, or their representatives with begging bowls, don't usually attempt to goad or shame anyone into giving. They certainly don't resort to abusing those that refuse. However, your analogy doesn't stand close scrutiny. Look around at the amount of anti-RSPCA comment that's out there. You can safely assume that most of those commenting wouldn't pee on the RSPCA if it were on fire, let alone give them cash. They definitely aren't simply saying "no thanks" and walking away. I'd also point out that, whether the ATr has charitable status or not, it's claiming to be a representative body, not a real charity. It works both ways, I'm quite content to, and really want to, stay well away from ATr stuff. However, I'd quite like to see the abuse of non-members stop, regardless of from where it originates. Paying £25 gives no one the right to assume any kind of superiority over those that don't. Non-members may well be partly responsible for the failure of the ATr. That doesn't mean that they are inferior anglers, don't care about angling, are parasitical or any other of the vitriolic rubbish that has been aimed in their direction by supercilious members. P.S. I've said absolutely nothing about the ATr itself. I think that can be said about both camps from where I am standing . what is the big issue with what other people have to say. it does not bother me if people do not want to join why should it bother you that some people do join or what their views are. Take no notice if you do not agree it is that simple.
sam vimes on 31/10/2013 21:02:55
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I think that can be said about both camps from where I am standing . what is the big issue with what other people have to say. it does not bother me if people do not want to join why should it bother you that some people do join or what their views are. Take no notice if you do not agree it is that simple. Oh dear, I thought you'd given up. I couldn't give a toss if someone wants to join or not. Either way, it's their choice. What I won't do, and haven't done, is accuse anyone that does join of being inferior, stupid or anything else. If you can point out to me where exactly anyone on the other camp has accused those that join of being in any way inferior, I'll bow to your point. As it stands, you don't really have one. A few too many, but not all, ATr members think that joining makes them superior and allows them to say whatever they like about those that don't hand their money over. It doesn't. Of course that does work the other way, but, I've yet to see an example of such. Support the ATr if you like, all power to you. But for those that think that gives you a stick to beat non-members with, wind your necks in.
bennygesserit on 31/10/2013 21:25:36
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Oh dear, I thought you'd given up. I couldn't give a toss if someone wants to join or not. Either way, it's their choice. What I won't do, and haven't done, is accuse anyone that does join of being inferior, stupid or anything else. If you can point out to me where exactly anyone on the other camp has accused those that join of being in any way inferior, I'll bow to your point. As it stands, you don't really have one. A few too many, but not all, ATr members think that joining makes them superior and allows them to say whatever they like about those that don't hand their money over. It doesn't. Of course that does work the other way, but, I've yet to see an example of such. Support the ATr if you like, all power to you. But for those that think that gives you a stick to beat non-members with, wind your necks in. I have read all this thread again and I think you have misunderstood the essence of what tinker is saying , though I agree some do like to think membership gives them some holy right to look down on others. i don't think tinker has said anything of the sort. Maybe it because Tinker and I have been online mates for years and regularly email each other that I interpret what he has said differently. Still I have no wish to dissect what he has contributed.
sam vimes on 31/10/2013 21:45:52
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I have read all this thread again and I think you have misunderstood the essence of what tinker is saying , though I agree some do like to think membership gives them some holy right to look down on others. i don't think tinker has said anything of the sort. Maybe it because Tinker and I have been online mates for years and regularly email each other that I interpret what he has said differently. Still I have no wish to dissect what he has contributed. You may be right, I don't believe Tiinker is one of those that has been scornful of non-members. However, he really isn't reading and digesting what I've said in any way shape or form. He seems to be defending the indefensible with spurious points while avoiding giving answers or evidence to the contrary of any valid points I may make. For the final time, I couldn't care less if someone wishes to join the ATr. I have no desire to stop them or influence them in any way. All I wish to see is the back of the hectoring of non-members that some think is entirely acceptable.
steph mckenzie on 01/11/2013 05:14:08
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The word i hear used more and more with regards to anyone who dosne't join the ATr and it's the one word that really pee's me off, APATHY. Basically saying, that anyone who fishes and doesn't join, doesn't care for or love their hobby as they don't care, it doesn't concern them what happens to fishing, or they just aren't interested in saving fishing. That is what really annoys me about their, i have a badge and i'm going to flash it attitude. It's not that it matters morally to them, it's like they're a flipping church goer who just wants you to believe the same faith as them and won't listen until you are converted. I don't care that they have joned, why should they care that i haven't. Brain Washed Muppets (ok, a bit to far but you get my point) :D
binka on 01/11/2013 07:17:42
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I don't care that they have joned, why should they care that i haven't. Brain Washed Muppets (ok, a bit to far but you get my point) :D The thing is Steph that most ATr members probably don't give a toss what you do, I certainly don't as I also stated to Graham Elliott in similar words when he was embroiled in a similar discussion on the subject with Fred... that's up to you but I do think that some are pedalling the exceptions of the vocal few who have made derogatory comments to those who won't join and applying them too broadly as the opinions of the majority which then puts the boot completely on the other foot and it's just possible that members of the ATr are getting sick and tired of this broad sweep. In short you've just become guilty of the very thing you're moaning about. I've stated elsewhere that there are perfectly valid reasons to join and not to join and that it's of little consequence to me what you do despite the fact that I would personally like to see the Trust's membership strengthen through numbers. The word i hear used more and more with regards to anyone who dosne't join the ATr and it's the one word that really pee's me off, APATHY. Basically saying, that anyone who fishes and doesn't join, doesn't care for or love their hobby as they don't care, it doesn't concern them what happens to fishing, or they just aren't interested in saving fishing. That is what really annoys me about their, i have a badge and i'm going to flash it attitude. It's not that it matters morally to them, it's like they're a flipping church goer who just wants you to believe the same faith as them and won't listen until you are converted. So basically then Steph it's ok for you to use broadly applied, sweeping derogatory remarks aimed at members of the ATr but they're not allowed to apply their opinions in the same broad manner? There's no doubt that certain people did, in my opinion, push too hard in respect of telling others what they should do but I honestly don't see that anymore and debating the advantages/disadvantages of the ATr is a very different and valid discussion. Can we please now drop this whole thing about being derided for not joining on the basis that it doesn't appear to be happening any more and bring it up and refer to it should it begin again?
steph mckenzie on 01/11/2013 07:45:24
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Binka, the question was asked as to why, i just replied. You certainly don't have to like or agree with my comments or my thoughts, but, to comment on them is no different to what i have already done on the subject. When you say broadly apply, i assume you were meaning where i said .. the members who have a badge that they like to flash, you did however leave out the part where i stated they were claiming Apathy was the reason for others not joining, if they broadly fall in to that category, then Yes, i did broadly apply derogatory remarks on those said ATr members. Fishing should be about Fishing, i think that the ATr has created a visible divide between those that are and those that aren't, i don't ever think it was intentional, but it is now there. If it really doesn't bother you, one way or the other, why highlight my posts and make your own comments, it makes no sense, leave it well alone and let us idiots get on with it :p :D
binka on 01/11/2013 07:56:06
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Binka, the question was asked as to why, i just replied. You certainly don't have to like or agree with my comments or my thoughts, but, to comment on them is no different to what i have already done on the subject. When you say broadly apply, i assume you were meaning where i said .. the members who have a badge that they like to flash, you did however leave out the part where i stated they were claiming Apathy was the reason for others not joining, if they broadly fall in to that category, then Yes, i did broadly apply derogatory remarks on those said ATr members. Fishing should be about Fishing, i think that the ATr has created a visible divide between those that are and those that aren't, i don't ever think it was intentional, but it is now there. If it really doesn't bother you, one way or the other, why highlight my posts and make your own comments, it makes no sense, leave it well alone and let us idiots get on with it :p :D The reason for my reply Steph was that it narks me to be generalised in the negative way that I viewed your post due to the derogatory remarks aimed at members of the ATr within it... in much the same manner others who haven't joined the ATr have felt disgruntled and posted about some of the alleged reasons by some that they haven't joined hence the "boot on the other foot" remark which I made. I didn't leave out anything within your post, apathy is also quoted just not highlighted and referred to specifically.
tiinker on 01/11/2013 07:57:20
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Oh dear, I thought you'd given up. I couldn't give a toss if someone wants to join or not. Either way, it's their choice. What I won't do, and haven't done, is accuse anyone that does join of being inferior, stupid or anything else. If you can point out to me where exactly anyone on the other camp has accused those that join of being in any way inferior, I'll bow to your point. As it stands, you don't really have one. A few too many, but not all, ATr members think that joining makes them superior and allows them to say whatever they like about those that don't hand their money over. It doesn't. Of course that does work the other way, but, I've yet to see an example of such. Support the ATr if you like, all power to you. But for those that think that gives you a stick to beat non-members with, wind your necks in. I agree with you completely but you should not take what other people say to heart just ignore them.
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 08:31:23
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I agree with you completely but you should not take what other people say to heart just ignore them. Well, I beg to differ. When people make indefensible sweeping statements, I, and hopefully others, will continue to take them to task. Whether it's the "all carpers are...." or "all non-ATr members are" variety, I don't care. If no one does challenge such comments, eventually they are believed. I see no good reason for such comments and no reason whatsoever as to why anyone should tolerate and ignore them.
steph mckenzie on 01/11/2013 10:11:19
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ok, in the interest of having made my point, and not wishing to upset anyone unnecessarily i will let this thread progress without me. Don't make me come back and regret this. Please feel free to highlight this and keep it with you in case you need to throw it back at me at a later date. Well wishes to the ATr and all it is trying to achieve and to those that aren't members then i also wish you all well. Stay safe out there people and enjoy your Sport,Hobby, Pastime however you wish to partake in it. Regards Steph.
tiinker on 01/11/2013 11:14:08
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Well, I beg to differ. When people make indefensible sweeping statements, I, and hopefully others, will continue to take them to task. Whether it's the "all carpers are...." or "all non-ATr members are" variety, I don't care. If no one does challenge such comments, eventually they are believed. I see no good reason for such comments and no reason whatsoever as to why anyone should tolerate and ignore them. That is you right to differ but to what end why waste time on people you consider to be fools life is to short .
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 12:31:02
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That is you right to differ but to what end why waste time on people you consider to be fools life is to short . Because if you allow such people (you said fools, not I) to go unanswered, others will start to believe them. Besides, I've got plenty of time on my hands.
tiinker on 01/11/2013 14:28:14
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Because if you allow such people (you said fools, not I) to go unanswered, others will start to believe them. Besides, I've got plenty of time on my hands. But what other people wish to believe and not what to believe is up to them. I do what I want you do as you want and the others can please them selves and then everybody is happy.
the blanker on 01/11/2013 14:32:38
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That is you right to differ but to what end why waste time on people you consider to be fools life is to short .[/quote] Pity the writer of the article didn't think that before writing it.
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 14:45:21
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But what other people wish to believe and not what to believe is up to them. I do what I want you do as you want and the others can please them selves and then everybody is happy. You still don't seem to see it. What they believe is, quite rightly, up to them. That still gives them no right to slate others. It's little different to the ingrained racists out there that are quite entitled to think what they will. That changes when they throw their thoughts into a public arena. In this instance, I don't want to join the ATr. The difference to a vocal minority, that do want to join the ATr, is that I have no inclination to slate them for that choice. When they stop slagging people off for their choice, I'll have nothing further to say. I've no problem with someone saying that they have joined and think everyone else should too, they may even be right. I've got a big issue with those that go further and suggest that those that don't join are inferior anglers, wish to see the ATr brought down etc etc. Why should I ignore their slatings if they can't leave me to my choice without resorting to such nonsense?
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) on 01/11/2013 15:04:18
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Sam Have you considered joining the PaSC? We won't slag you off if you haven't or just think it's not for you. We formed for people just like you. The PaSC. For the thinking angler...
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 15:16:33
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Sam Have you considered joining the PaSC? We won't slag you off if you haven't or just think it's not for you. We formed for people just like you. The PaSC. For the thinking angler... Corky, I've not considered it at all, for no other reason than, as if you couldn't tell, I'm not one of nature's joiners!:o;):D Besides, all your get togethers may as well be on the moon for someone that now gets the heebie jeebies going more than forty miles.;):D
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) on 01/11/2013 15:20:39
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We could join you and take over your favorite venue. We could all use fishmeal pellets, boilies and groundbait with a nice krill soak.
sam vimes on 01/11/2013 15:22:43
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We could join you and take over your favorite venue. We could all use fishmeal pellets, boilies and groundbait with a nice krill soak. It's certainly a possibility, provided that actually catching anything isn't a requirement.
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) on 01/11/2013 15:31:44
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Well I didn't go to the last PaSC fish-in and they couldn't buy a bite between them without my knowledge and advice. So that would be nothing new. Its al about the port and stilton really.
nicepix on 01/11/2013 16:55:02
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It's certainly a possibility, provided that actually catching anything isn't a requirement. Don't be daft Sam. If they wanted to catch anything they wouldn't go to Damn Flask every year. :D
tiinker on 01/11/2013 17:32:32
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You still don't seem to see it. What they believe is, quite rightly, up to them. That still gives them no right to slate others. It's little different to the ingrained racists out there that are quite entitled to think what they will. That changes when they throw their thoughts into a public arena. In this instance, I don't want to join the ATr. The difference to a vocal minority, that do want to join the ATr, is that I have no inclination to slate them for that choice. When they stop slagging people off for their choice, I'll have nothing further to say. I've no problem with someone saying that they have joined and think everyone else should too, they may even be right. I've got a big issue with those that go further and suggest that those that don't join are inferior anglers, wish to see the ATr brought down etc etc. Why should I ignore their slatings if they can't leave me to my choice without resorting to such nonsense? If you let it wind you up there is plainly is a problem of your own making. just lets it drop shall we .
Paul Boote on 03/11/2013 13:23:58
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Very much so, mark. To use a birdwatching analogy, the RSPB maintained its appeal to BIRDLOVERS of every colour and stripe, from the pensioner looking at the garden birds from the window of their retirement bungalow to the people who have seen and done everything, didn't allow itself to be taken over by the hard-core, often stroke-pulling, obsessive, borderline fanatical Twitchers who'll drop anything they're doing and arrive en masse at any spot, however far away, when a real rarity has touched land or been sighted, just to get another tick in their bulging notebooks or tablets. Angling, however, for perhaps the past twenty to thirty years, has tended to champion the freakish and excessive - size, extreme, destination, gentrification and snobbery, mega carp, mega barbel etc - sought to normalize the somewhat piscatorially aberrant - mags, tackle firms, agents, fishery owners, media and other entities all playing a large part in this. Little wonder that a lot of Ordinary Joes have voted with their feet, given up or not taken up the pastime as many in very recent earlier generations - their fathers, uncles and mates' Dads etc - once did. Some detoxifying of the Angling brand is necessary, chaps. PS - I am not referring to the ATr here, but the British Angling World in general, coarse and game. A lot less about kit, mega egos and fame, must-do places and species, more about making it accessible and attractive to all sorts of people. Oh yeah, and a lot less dissing and warring. I see that I wasn't too far out with the above the other day. Planning that Fish Frenzy | Fighting For Fishing
Paul Boote on 05/11/2013 10:15:50
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I am beginning to see the way things are going now. Lots of lovely kit, dinky little survivalist pack rods and custom-colored Cane & Abel reels, a lot of luscious flies and lures, some top-end breathable waders, jacket and a Patagonia Tinfoil Hat or two, a one-way airline ticket and an unlimited stay lodge-booking at a super-remote destination.... Only way to go, now, it seems. http://www.ginkandgasoline.com/fly-fishing-tips-technique/the-perfect-doomsday-preppers-fly-fishing-rod/


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