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SAC Juice Bait Activator

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SAC Juice Bait Activator

Colin Gordon reviews LaGuna’s SAC Juice glycerite bait activator

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 
Chris Wilson of LaGuna contacted me with a view to reviewing SAC juice and between us we selected three flavours for me to try: shrimp, plum and banana - yes, the infamous banana flavour as highly recommended by FishingMagic forum user Christian Barker (Chav Professor).


The first thing that struck me was the odour, well actually the lack of smell! I'd been anticipating a scent overload, and it was only then that I started thinking about posts made by Chris (Laguna) on the FM forum regarding chemical stimuli being key, rather than scents that we can detect.

 
My original plan was to include the shrimp flavour in my oily fishmeal based paste for chub and barbel, to act as an emulsifier to help the oils leach out, to help keep it soft in cold water and to increase attraction.


Sadly the weather put paid to all that!


So, after a change of plan, I tried using the banana flavour in conjunction with bread, mash and flake, adding about 10ml to a loaf of mashed bread and dipping the flake hookbait in neat Juice. This method produced a chub – my intended quarry – and a catch rate above my expectancy for plain bread; interestingly it also brought a good number of large bream to my net.

 
As a result of the poor river conditions this winter, l found myself fishing commercial stillwaters, where I tried adding shrimp SAC Juice to maggots and chopped worms at a rate of about 10ml to 1/2 a pint of either and/or both.


I can honestly say my catch rate doubled, again I dipped my hookbaits (double maggot) in neat Juice, on top of that I tried coating my hookbaits with a dusting of pre-digested shrimp powder too, I'm not sure if it improved things further  but I do know that I'll be trying coating baits in the summer.

 
My verdict is that if you're looking for a bait booster/enhancer, then I can highly recommend these products.







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Comments (46 posted):

chav professor on 07/03/2014 12:06:28
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My experience of treating maggots with SAC juice as posed to unflavored maggots produced far better catch rates.....
aebitim on 07/03/2014 23:09:34
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Poor show chaps, blatant advertising, bought some sac, ended up buying twice due to not understanding the website, only consolation is that it seems to do what it says on the bottle. This endorsement may be withdrawn if sponsorship is mentioned.
cg74 on 08/03/2014 13:32:34
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Poor show chaps, blatant advertising, bought some sac, ended up buying twice due to not understanding the website, only consolation is that it seems to do what it says on the bottle. This endorsement may be withdrawn if sponsorship is mentioned. No advertising by me, all I've done is give a straight forward honest appraisal of a product. It could be labelled as being a little over positive BUT I never found anything negative to write about it.
sam vimes on 08/03/2014 13:42:02
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Shame that they can't get the author's name right from one part of the article to the next. Hello Chris Gordon!;):D:wh
cg74 on 08/03/2014 13:50:13
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It's an easy mistake to make.......... ....... At least the initial letter is correct.:D
jasonbean1 on 08/03/2014 15:03:55
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i love it...the worm as turned!
daji on 08/03/2014 22:03:26
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Hi CG74. When you say your catch rate doubled do you mean that once you added this flavouring you started to catch double the number of fish during the session, or you caught double what you would normally have expected to catch during an average session?
cg74 on 08/03/2014 22:16:02
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i love it...the worm as turned! Actually, if there's any worms involved they'd be cut into 1/4" lengths and dosed in SAC Juice.... ---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:09 ---------- Hi CG74. When you say your catch rate doubled do you mean that once you added this flavouring you started to catch double the number of fish during the session, or you caught double what you would normally have expected to catch during an average session? Both double my expected catch rate and when fishing two spots within a given swim, the spot fed with Juice would produce about twice as much as the one fed plain bait.
binka on 09/03/2014 16:26:41
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Not wanting to sound a sceptical note but... I am honestly lost as to the point of this feature, other than to endorse a product by means of the flimsiest of tests? Without going to the extremes of pulling the entire article apart sentence by sentence there are, as I see it, numerous flaws. I too once swallowed the marketing and bought some "flakey bread" from a certain company and in my opinion they should be prosecuted by Trading Standards for the name alone! The product which arrived (after the first order went mysteriously missing in the post) bares no resemblance to flake... it's a hard, dough like substance with a strong smell and is pre-drilled (or whatever process is used) to provide a hole in which to insert a hair! After that I found that the smell leaked away considerably after the first cast to the point that it was barely detectable by my own nose and if that wasn't enough I found that on retrieval of the bait the hair was bare and the bait gone, presumably because it had swollen up in the middle of the pre-drilled hole for the hair and gone its own way when the bait finally split! And did I catch a single, marauding, eat anything river pig on it? No! And as for this... Well here's a concept for you, go to your tackle shop and buy some bait, present it properly and who knows what the possibilities are? Alternatively, here's a few I caught on my very own magic, natural and unscented worms but I've given them the "magic touch" (pm me for secretive, inconclusive details and extortionate price list lol) I am trying to leave size out of this in relation to the quoted picture but there's plenty of good 'uns too if you need 'em!
barbelboi on 09/03/2014 17:13:39
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I'm with Binka on this one - now come on Chav, what are those in your net, this is what I'd call a roach caught on plain old trotted flake with many more on the same and plain old caster/hemp....:D
binka on 09/03/2014 17:16:49
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I'm with Binka on this one - now come on Chav, what are those in your net, this is what I'd call a roach caught on plain old trotted flake with many more on the same and plain old caster/hemp....:D Nice one Jerry, on more than one account ;) :D
daji on 09/03/2014 18:35:14
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So CG74 i'm guessing as you had such a great experience using this additive, you will never be fishing without SAC juice again? I'm pretty sceptical of claims of a miracle bait doubling catches, particularly if it is based on a single session, or maybe you have used it a number of times? The results for a whole season's worth of comparative catches would be interesting to see.
chav professor on 09/03/2014 19:23:11
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i'll raise you..... its utter nonsense to suggest that flavours/additives don't have a dramatic and positive impact on catch rates if applied with intelligence. Catch images are subjective and only relevant in the context to the man to your left or right on any given day. At the moment, conditions dictate that by day/dusk - plain brown bread is the effective method... a switch to something smellier after dark. I can assure you - those images beat hands down anything similar landed..... Location, method and application are key to any process.... the rest is down to how you feel about it. Equally happy to use the simplest of baits.... happy to explore the possibility with additives sensibly applied whilst remaining objective. Question... I make NOT A SINGLE PENNY from any endorsement... I get to trial and use products. WHY??? I mean Why actually bother if I didn't think it made a positive impact........ Your a bunch of old cynical silly sausages.... If I got a lifetime free supply of swede and didn't enjoy eating them..... All images provided thus far are from a free fishing lake - largely natural stocking. Do the amino acid and complex food triggers elicit a feeding response? I think so - thats good enough for me and which is why I'll continue to use the SAC juice and a very few other bits and pieces that make a difference from my perspective. Thats a personal standpoint. Not very persuasive. Richard Walker, F K Wallis, Billy Lane, and a whole host of anglers historic and present have endorsed products......Look in your tackle boxes.... be grateful some of the better ideas persist. If something is sh!te or unnecessary, it will disappear happily without trace.... Much to the apparent noyance of some (:confused:)... endorsement and promotion of ideas is part of this process - always has been. Just as well really, otherwise you would all be taking advantage of the warm weather waiting for the hung pigeon to ring forth its fruit of larva, green heart rod, bent pin and horsehair. ---------- Post added at 12:23 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ---------- I'm with Binka on this one - now come on Chav, what are those in your net, this is what I'd call a roach caught on plain old trotted flake with many more on the same and plain old caster/hemp....:D I dunno.... think you made hard work of that Barbelboi.... caught on some sweaty old white maggots Old Skool!;)
nicepix on 09/03/2014 19:32:26
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I'm with Binka on this one - now come on Chav, what are those in your net, this is what I'd call a roach caught on plain old trotted flake with many more on the same and plain old caster/hemp....:D But to be fair those in chav's net were the ones that didn't escape through the mesh. There were a few more :D ---------- Post added at 20:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:26 ---------- i'll raise you..... its utter nonsense to suggest that flavours/additives don't have a dramatic and positive impact on catch rates if applied with intelligence. Catch images are subjective and only relevant in the context to the man to your left or right on any given day. At the moment, conditions dictate that by day/dusk - plain brown bread is the effective method... a switch to something smellier after dark. I can assure you - those images beat hands down anything similar landed..... Location, method and application are key to any process.... the rest is down to how you feel about it. Equally happy to use the simplest of baits.... happy to explore the possibility with additives sensibly applied whilst remaining objective. Question... I make NOT A SINGLE PENNY from any endorsement... I get to trial and use products. WHY??? I mean Why actually bother if I didn't think it made a positive impact........ Your a bunch of old cynical silly sausages.... If I got a lifetime free supply of swede and didn't enjoy eating them..... All images provided thus far are from a free fishing lake - largely natural stocking. Do the amino acid and complex food triggers elicit a feeding response? I think so - thats good enough for me and which is why I'll continue to use the SAC juice and a very few other bits and pieces that make a difference from my perspective. Thats a personal standpoint. Not very persuasive. Richard Walker, F K Wallis, Billy Lane, and a whole host of anglers historic and present have endorsed products......Look in your tackle boxes.... be grateful some of the better ideas persist. If something is sh!te or unnecessary, it will disappear happily without trace.... Much to the apparent noyance of some (:confused:)... endorsement and promotion of ideas is part of this process - always has been. Just as well really, otherwise you would all be taking advantage of the warm weather waiting for the hung pigeon to ring forth its fruit of larva, green heart rod, bent pin and horsehair. ---------- Post added at 12:23 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ---------- I dunno.... think you made hard work of that Barbelboi.... caught on some sweaty old white maggots Old Skool!;) Seeing as you are playing old school; I'll raise you a bread caught mullet :D
chav professor on 09/03/2014 19:50:33
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Best Mullet bait by far! Has to be said... Mitchells are rubbish!!!!! Can't beat a nice silky smooth Ambidex.......... ---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ---------- Anyway Nicepix, your only using that coffee grinder 'cos' Dick Walker had one! (Damn - thats why I was using my MK4 Avon.... damn, damn, damn!!!!!!!)
nicepix on 09/03/2014 19:52:46
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Best Mullet bait by far! Has to be said... Mitchells are rubbish!!!!! Can't beat a nice silky smooth Ambidex.......... ---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ---------- Anyway Nicepix, your only using that coffee grinder 'cos' Dick Walker had one! (Damn - thats why I was using my MK4 Avon.... damn, damn, damn!!!!!!!) I use my Mitchell 'cos flightliner uses one ;)
barbelboi on 09/03/2014 20:05:37
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Now come on Chav, that's scraping the barrel pushing snotties in the equation....;)
nicepix on 09/03/2014 20:14:00
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Now come on Chav, that's scraping the barrel pushing snotties in the equation....;) If you recall he thought they were chub when he was stalking them :omg: :D
barbelboi on 09/03/2014 20:25:54
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Talking about bread for mullet Clive, I know you've fished Cyprus - off the rocks to Cape Greco (between Ayia Napa & Protaras) they are absolutely suicidal for bread - slightly different to over here...
nicepix on 09/03/2014 20:30:44
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Talking about bread for mullet Clive, I know you've fished Cyprus - off the rocks to Cape Greco (between Ayia Napa & Protaras) they are absolutely suicidal for bread - slightly different to over here... I fish the opposite end of the island near to Polis and they are just as keen on bread there too. As are the bream. The locals use a sort of yellow paste that you buy in jars. Never needed it myself. Bread works fine. Must be the E Numbers stimulating their appetite ;)
flightliner on 09/03/2014 22:07:34
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I like maggots. One of my best match weights came off the witham with a quart of sweaty, smelly moakes that had been left unopened for three days by accident!.
cg74 on 09/03/2014 22:36:13
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So CG74 i'm guessing as you had such a great experience using this additive, you will never be fishing without SAC juice again? I'm pretty sceptical of claims of a miracle bait doubling catches, particularly if it is based on a single session, or maybe you have used it a number of times? The results for a whole season's worth of comparative catches would be interesting to see. Where did you get the idea that my opinion was formed from only one session? The chub and bream results came from 7 sessions (on rivers) and I used the chopped worms and maggots with shrimp Juice on 8 sessions (on stillwaters). Of course there will be occasions when I'll go fishing without it but it'll definitely be an option for when I think it's warranted. What my review offers is an insight into it's efficacy during winter, which even if I used it for a year, it'd only show the same period for winter; Dec, Jan and Feb. (I'm assuming you meant a year when you said "whole season?) Binka, have you ever used pellets or boilies?
laguna on 10/03/2014 02:27:15
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Nothing is ever believed unless you have first hand experience, I guess you cant argue with that. Much easier to believe a cynic... so it made sense for us to ask one to trial and who better than Colin Gordon? As you may know, he is the "best" and pulls no punches - he is truthful and honest and forthright in his opinion, you simply have to respect that. Christian Barker too, he has always been open to experimentation and an obvious person to trial, experienced in using natural critters and natural flavours, another honest and gifted angler, he has trialled for longer probably over 2 years now and is still using it. The only audible critique heard is from those who have never tried it... its not a wonder bait or anything, its not the latest super duper must have and you will NOT catch fish that aren't there - but if confidence is lacking its because the market is dominated by additives that sometimes work and sometimes don't. SAC juice is the only additive on the market that is 100% natural, its been there all this time right under our own noses... natural designed to catch fish, pointless smelling it, pointless tasting it (detectable by the fish not the angler). A question once posed by Christian; what does a lob worm smell like? I don't know but they continue to work - natural is the very ethos behind SAC juice. Contains all 10 essential amino acids that fish require... that's the difference between a lob worm and one dosed with SAC juice - its 'activated' - not adulterated or artificially enhanced with flavour or hype.
daji on 10/03/2014 06:58:41
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Where did you get the idea that my opinion was formed from only one session? The chub and bream results came from 7 sessions (on rivers) and I used the chopped worms and maggots with shrimp Juice on 8 sessions (on stillwaters). Of course there will be occasions when I'll go fishing without it but it'll definitely be an option for when I think it's warranted. What my review offers is an insight into it's efficacy during winter, which even if I used it for a year, it'd only show the same period for winter; Dec, Jan and Feb. (I'm assuming you meant a year when you said "whole season?) Hi cg74, yes having re-read you're article i stand corrected. Initially i read the trial as being used once on a river and once on a still water but now see thats not the case. I would indeed like to see results such as catch weights for a whole year with and without SAC as i find statements such as 'doubling' the catch rate a little flimsy. As somebody previously mentioned i am probably skeptical due to the number of other similar product claims out there. Thanks for replying ;)
chav professor on 10/03/2014 08:07:09
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definitely bring up a valid point... skepticism and outlandish claims.... I have a list of things that I would suggest have a positive impact.... most are natural! garlic, fennel, thai 7 spice, chinese 5 spice, chilli, tuna oil (awesome for bream - they love it), anchovies, salt, betaine, van den eynde 'roach', archie braddocks red surprise, floral surprise, SAC juice....... In some instances - the addition of an additive has more than doubled expected catches... maybe even far exceeding expectations. Happens too frequently to write it off.......
rubio on 10/03/2014 10:32:06
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My current favourite from the shops is coconut milk powder, sprinkled on liquidised bread. I can't be sure whether it has helped or hindered for sure but I like the extra cloud and scent trail.
cg74 on 10/03/2014 22:08:54
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Nothing is ever believed unless you have first hand experience, I guess you cant argue with that. Much easier to believe a cynic... so it made sense for us to ask one to trial and who better than Colin Gordon? As you may know, he is the "best" and pulls no punches - he is truthful and honest and forthright in his opinion, you simply have to respect that. Christian Barker too, he has always been open to experimentation and an obvious person to trial, experienced in using natural critters and natural flavours, another honest and gifted angler, he has trialled for longer probably over 2 years now and is still using it. The only audible critique heard is from those who have never tried it... its not a wonder bait or anything, its not the latest super duper must have and you will NOT catch fish that aren't there - but if confidence is lacking its because the market is dominated by additives that sometimes work and sometimes don't. SAC juice is the only additive on the market that is 100% natural, its been there all this time right under our own noses... natural designed to catch fish, pointless smelling it, pointless tasting it (detectable by the fish not the angler). A question once posed by Christian; what does a lob worm smell like? I don't know but they continue to work - natural is the very ethos behind SAC juice. Contains all 10 essential amino acids that fish require... that's the difference between a lob worm and one dosed with SAC juice - its 'activated' - not adulterated or artificially enhanced with flavour or hype. I can't argue with that. :) Hi cg74, yes having re-read you're article i stand corrected. Initially i read the trial as being used once on a river and once on a still water but now see thats not the case. I would indeed like to see results such as catch weights for a whole year with and without SAC as i find statements such as 'doubling' the catch rate a little flimsy. As somebody previously mentioned i am probably skeptical due to the number of other similar product claims out there. Thanks for replying ;) Daji, I wholly accept and understand your cynicism but there is little chance of me field testing and detailing any product as extensively as you want. I've stated my findings (so far) and I am very happy to recommend it as an individual with no vested interest; take it or leave it, it's up to you.... :)
chav professor on 18/03/2014 17:45:17
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To keep it live.. happy to post todays catch on maggots coated in Pineapple SAC juice and dusted with Pineapple SAC powder. Look carefully, should see some of those breamy chubby things.... nothing massive, but bite a chuck......
barbelboi on 18/03/2014 18:15:22
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Phew, I had to look twice there - thought it was a certain Mr James 'fishing for shad' for a minute. You should have the decency to warn of facial appearance changes Chav....;) PS Simon (Peter Crabtree) and I had well over a hundred quality roach on plain old caster/hemp from a local pit during a 5 hour session last week.........:D
chav professor on 18/03/2014 18:30:12
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Yea... but its all proportional... different lake... different outcome.... you could have caught thousands!;)
cg74 on 18/03/2014 18:43:32
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Yea... but its all proportional... different lake... different outcome.... you could have caught thousands!;) Exactly right.:)
laguna on 18/03/2014 19:24:40
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You may need a bigger net on some waters Jerry :D
daji on 18/03/2014 19:47:59
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:D you guys are shameless! anyway, a quick question for Chav. Why the need to use both SAC juice and powder on the maggots?
sam vimes on 18/03/2014 20:04:11
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Chris, Christian or Colin, a quick question for one or all of you. Once your maggots have been dosed in the juice/powder, do they still keep beyond the session concerned? Are you feeding dosed bait or just fishing them on the hook amongst plain feed maggots?
chav professor on 18/03/2014 20:09:59
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:D you guys are shameless! anyway, a quick question for Chav. Why the need to use both SAC juice and powder on the maggots? Hi daji, thanks for the question.... the original concept was a soak and coat - hence SAC juice. The liquid helps the powder adhere. I think this could have prompted a mini article.... some good things you can do with the SAC juice.... Pickling maggots - otherwise known as 'Crispy Maggots'..... freeze/thaw glugged dead maggots... dipping, glugging, 'krilling', soaking and coating... the strawberry SAC powder is actually quite pungent... it flavors and degreases... ---------- Post added at 13:09 ---------- Previous post was at 13:05 ---------- Chris, Christian or Colin, a quick question for one or all of you. Once your maggots have been dosed in the juice/powder, do they still keep beyond the session concerned? Are you feeding dosed bait or just fishing them on the hook amongst plain feed maggots? just talking personally here... I coat half a pint or so at a time.... I have used a separate container for glugging 'hookers' (not on this occasion) or just giving the hook bait a quick glug...
laguna on 19/03/2014 05:01:12
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SAC as the name implies is a system of "Soak And Coat", the juice allows the powder to adhere to pellets, boilies, maggots or what have you. Although the SAC fruit powder is soluble made from real pineapple, strawberry etc. and smells divine (10g equals two punnets) and the predigested fishy powders smell like 'old grannies knickers' isn't so readily soluble as the juice, its used more as a visual aid to add attraction when fishing up in the water or just off bottom as tiny particles cascades down like glitter from a Xmas card. Sam, the juice preserves but will kill the maggots/worms if you add too much. 10ml per pint is about right and makes them wriggle a little more as it absorbs through the skin - a bit like rubbing salt into the wound! :D ---------- Post added at 05:01 ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 ---------- Pickling maggots - otherwise known as 'Crispy Maggots'..... freeze/thaw glugged dead maggots... dipping, glugging, 'krilling', soaking and coating... embalmed and mummified... krilled, preserved and smelly! :eek:
nicepix on 19/03/2014 07:49:46
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Its all very complicated and scientific. This is Laguna making the SAC Juice (image taken from publicity images on his company web site.)
barbelboi on 19/03/2014 07:59:32
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I'm not saying another word - I've seen what happened to Chav's face when he got carried away and drank some.....................;)
nicepix on 19/03/2014 08:03:24
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I'm not saying another word - I've seen what happened to Chav's face when he got carried away and drank some.....................;) Chav only does short sessions. Look at Colin when he woke up at the end of a 72 hour SAC enhanced session...........
chav professor on 19/03/2014 08:14:09
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It ain't that complicated... your average 14 year old child can describe the process of digestion and the role of enzymes.... real food components, treated with Enzymes operating withing a temperature range 36-38 degrees. Releases Amino acids - building blocks of proteins. Glycerine? anti microbial action, preservative, makes oils soluble, resists freezing. Me? don't really care...... initially intrigued, certainly impressed, invited to come on board in a very small way as an angler to trial and share my thoughts. Never been massively into bait industry - just want to enjoy my fishing and catch a few.
barbelboi on 19/03/2014 08:44:41
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Fair enough, never let it be said that I would knock something without giving it a fair trial. Just drop a van load off at my house and I will act as a tester and give my unbiased opinion on how it compares to other baits on the Colne Valley pits and get back to you after a few years.................... well, there are an awful lot of ‘em and some are very, very big....................... PS If anyone on the forum wants to buy any of this stuff on the cheap drop me a PM.............;)
cg74 on 19/03/2014 21:07:57
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Chris, Christian or Colin, a quick question for one or all of you. Once your maggots have been dosed in the juice/powder, do they still keep beyond the session concerned? Are you feeding dosed bait or just fishing them on the hook amongst plain feed maggots? I only dipped my hookbaits in the powder. My loose feed and hookbaits were both dosed in juice, I never had any treated bait left over after my sessions. ---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 21:04 ---------- Chav only does short sessions. Look at Colin when he woke up at the end of a 72 hour SAC enhanced session........... Actually it was a 120 hour session!
chav professor on 20/03/2014 22:19:41
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right... I'm taking a pike rod next time... I love it when 4oz becomes considerably heavier - especially when its on a snap tackle. Not so great when trying to put a net of fish together.....
rubio on 22/03/2014 13:37:15
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A small dead will do it. They are extremely cautious of livebaits that don't swim straight. Also keep eye out for set lines again!
flightliner on 23/03/2014 14:19:19
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I use flavours, attractors, enhancers, whatever people like to call them but always at the back of my mind they are more a confidence thing than anything that promotes certainty in the catching of fish. That said for years (and even now) I have been a user of good old plain table salt in my (some) baits. Indeed, on the trent they have done me very well(I think) over the years, particularly where bream have bee concerned. If ever they were presant in my swim and you wernt particularly fond of them you were like as not going to have a bad days fishing. Last friday I fished for the second time in ten years a local commie and contrary to using flavoured baits I used mostly old maggots that were on the turn from a last visit of the season to the river trent in the hope of some barbel on the float. Nothing- even the guys opposite sstruggled for nil returns using feeders and probably flavoured boillies and /or pellets. Back to the commie a few days later and those old maggots. I was sat fishing with guys who in the main used pole n pellets but my day was equally if not better than many of them taking a number of small carp that finally reponded to a regular baiting regime,the waggler at range and like as not subtle changes in the weather and some fishy behaviouristic traits that maybe anticipated the coming cold snap that we rely on the weather girl for . Nothing definable to say that flavours or otherwise do better on the day , simply that it may be better to keep an open mind, one last observation on the subject tho, many years ago Bill Bartles, an older national angler once wrote of a day on the witham bream fishing with his old dad who was an avid taker of snuff. He reeked of the stuff and it was passed onto his bread paste bait used with a crowquill rig. Bill was a top man on the river but at the days end his dad beat him hands down with a big catch of bream. food for thought.
chav professor on 23/03/2014 16:30:25
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A great additive for bream is Tuna oil..... The X-Cite by bait tech..... ---------- Post added at 09:30 ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 ---------- Will add, salt is common to a lot of great baits - which suggests it may be a limiting factor in freshwater diet.... Like wise other salts (other than simple sodium chloride) and minerals. Rock salt contains far more than simple table salt. However, the stuff used to keep roads clear of ice contain detergents and other nasties so be careful trying to go on the cheap, cheap.....


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