I've apologised privately to Steve for putting him on the spot. This thread was purely to establish if there is anyone out there who still holds the view that lures only take the smaller fish. I didn't, and don't expect anyone to reveal exact locations or P.B.venues. But lures versus baits is still a very interesting topic, as are those views on lures for big pike- the topic is still on for opinion- once again sorry Steve.
Derek, no worries mate and definately no need for an apology (did you get my reply?).
I've learnt the hard way not to say anything on the forum that will give the game away, pike thrive on neglect. Lurkers from other sites don't help the cause!
So, let's get back to it.
Personally I can't answer Dereks question, YET!
But the recomended lures are gonna get a serious work-out this season!
There is another element to this. Several times I have heard pike anglers remark that having sat behind two rods with deadbaits, they had decided to "have a wander with the lure rod as there was nothing happening". Unsurprising then that if they caught anything at all it would be a small jack. They are hardly likely to wind in the deadbait rods when the runs are coming thick and fast, and the big fish are on the feed.
Steve, I don't think for one moment that you won't be able to answer a lot of my questions in double quick time. Why, because you already display interest and an ''open mind'', a definate asset.
The confidence doesn't take long once you've found your feet- and at the risk of repetition ''confidence'' is everything. I'm not paying you lip service mate, just a plain statement of fact.
Stuart, we are in complete agreement on this mate, it has always been my belief that to '' have a crack with the lures'' when the bait fishing is unproductive is no way to learn anything about the art of lure fishing.For make no mistake, the best lure fishermen are those who rely on the lure, not edging their bets by trying to employ every method allowed to nail a fish or save a blank outing.
It is my honest belief that to learn the method properly- you have to depend on one method or the other.Contrary to popular belief I don't think one compliments the other. Is this where I should duck below the parapet?
I'm not sure if they complement each other but I often have a lure rod on the boat when I'm bait fishing in the winter and I've sometimes caught after either slinging a lure about past my baits or reeling one rod in so the float's close to the boat and working a lure past that.
When a river I fish a lot was running very clear a couple of seasons back, I was astonished how many pike I got following lures and turning away, either when I was trolling them or casting.
One day a large fish kept flirting with the lure and turning away, I dropped a livie over the side, cast the lure at where I last saw it and the float went and I had a 20.
After a few seasons' lure fishing I'm comfy with using the gear, different ways to work lures etc but I just never seem to get the better fish doing it. A couple of seasons back when I did catch quite a few 20lbs-plus fish I was lure fishing a lot but never beat my lure-caught best of 18lbs-odd, while the baits definitely scored with the bigger fish in that stretch of river.
I did wonder if this had anything to do with my MO, which was basically get out on the boat, look for a bream shoal and tuck in behind them as they worked their way up the river.
The bottom's quite silty and they'd invariably colour the water quite noticeably. On calm, clear days in the winter when I was out at first light, I could smell the bream quite literally when they were rolling on the top, but pulling lures through the top few feet of water around them never caught, while big deads lobbed around the bream often did.
Chris, your experience of following fish that end up turning away, is one that is often encountered. It happens to everyone, even the most adept of lure anglers. And here i think is the key, some of the best lure anglers i know will chance a couple of casts. Then change to the same lure but different colour.
My own approach revolves around the behaviour of the pike which followed, if it was an aggressive follower or maybe a slow sidle up 'idle buggers' we call them. The aggressive one is always the easiest for obvious reasons. The idle bugger needs time to make up its mind in which case i tend to mark its position, then walk away to try a few more spots returning half an hour or so later to try it again. For me Chris honestly it works more than fails. We used to call the above ringing the dinner bell years ago. It's a very expansive subject i think perhaps I've over simplified it.
I'm not yet smart enough at lure fishing to convert most of these follows into takes. I've tried things like speed up, pause and twitch, stick a different lure on etc and it rarely works.
The fact I saw it happen a lot while the river was running clear made me wonder how many times it happens and you don't realise because the following pike melts away before you spot it.
I've caught plenty of pike on undeads when I've either seen one and dropped a bait near it, or cast at a fish I've seen striking at prey. It's rarely worked for me with lures.
One of my ambitions for this season is a lure-caught 20, just to reassure myself I'm not a complete loser.
Chris, Your point about coloured water and being unaware of a possible follow stopped me in my tracks. I am guilty of making assumptions, you see the majority of my river/drain fishing is done under what I would call optimum conditions i.e. clear or semi clear water.
If I was aware that any of my chosen venues was running dirty or high, then I would plumb for a stillwater or canal. Not your error by any means purely mine.
Sight fishing plays a vital role in my lure fishing Chris,I always feel the need to see what's happening with the lure and hopefully the fish.
On rivers Swale, Nidd, Derwent and Wharf I can do just that. It's slightly different on the Mighty Trent, as here much of the time the river carries a slight tinge. Even here the problem is slightly compensated by the pikes affinity with the marginal slope, most takes at range zero making up the bulk of the hits.I think that maybe explains why I hold firm views on the pikes reaction to lures. When certain patterns are repeated many hundreds of times if not thousands, random they are not.
I think you would agree? Would still value your imput mate.
I now believe that lures can and will catch big pike when used right. From my own point of view i think that big pike can be caught on lures because from my experiences with fishing for pike on lures I have learnt more and more day by day on how to maneuver the lure to make it as realistic as possible and I believe that once you have mastered the art of using lures properly lures can most definatelly catch big pike.
Matt, there is nothing more condusive to a learning curve than enjoying what you are doing, and I know you are doing just that. But you must be mindfull of the fact that you have a distinct advantage over those who have by neccesity to go it alone.
Having said that you are on a roll and the fact that you are paying close attention to the different ways a lure can be made to perform suggests there is much more enjoyment to come.
I mentioned your catch to Mick Brown the other evening, he was very happy for you, as I am. Remember always, there is so much more to learn.
Here is a piece taken from the "Anglers Mail Guide....Catch Bigger Coarse Fish" written by Andy Little.It`s taken from the section on pike.....
"Although massive lures are used on reservoirs,i favour much smaller versions between 2in and 4in long.Mini,wooden style jerk baits,as well as soft rubber ones and even hybrids of the two,have become a vital component of my revitalised lure fishing kit for fast growing reservoir pike."
You may or may not be aware that Andy Little is now the Sales Manager of Fox International. My guess is that Fox have a warehouse full of lures answering the description Andy has made and he wants to get rid of them.
Fox stopped doing those kind of lures 12 months ago, so i doubt very much that this will be the reason. I cannot even get hold of them as a consultant to the company! Also there would be problems on most of the ressies with using lures of that size as they would be below the allowed size limit.
Back to the question in hand.
I think that the statement that has been made by some that lures are the best methods pretty far off the mark. On any given day in my experience, there will be better and worse methods. As CB pointed out flood water or dirty water being two conditions where lures would be less effective than baits.
I think you are best off learning all the methods and trying to master all of them to be consistent as a piker. Those that state that lures are best etc are just as blinkered as those that say that deads or lives are best, eery dog has its day as they say.
As for whether big pike take a lure, well yes of course they do, the same as they take a deadbait or a livebait. The real trick is finding just what they want on any given day.
one final thing on the subject the topic of dead baits on trout waters was brought up, personally i dont think that this is particularly relevant because in many ways the fishing on trout ressies is artificial, in that the pike are exceptionally well fed and probably need that stimulus of a moving bait to elicit either an aggressive or feeding response. Certainly on those waters where dead baits have been taken from the off, like chew, baits have done every bit as well as lures.
Mark, I am aware of Andy Little of course, though I do not know him personally. So I would be doing him a disservice to comment on his pike fishing background. I do however know that he is now employed by Fox, if he is indeed the marketing director for said company. Then it comes as no surprise to me that he would wish to be up to date with all products. He follows close on the heels of Dave Kelbrick and Mick Brown, who are both well known to me and who I am proud to call mates. If my memory is to be trusted I am sure it was Dave K. who introduced the micro jerks and hybrid varients! So it would seem to me to be following an already established pattern of events, good marketing indeed- a tweak here a tweak there!! If my response seems a tad cynical Mark forgive me, but it is most certainly fodder for a suspicious mind.
As for your reference to lures being the ''only'' approach, I don't recall anyone being so bold as to suggest that.My initial thought when posting this thread was to establish if that old chestnut with regard to lures only taking small fish was still prevalent.
My own personal views are based upon empirical experience , I have no axe to grind Mark, other than to dispell the myth!!!
what I was actually trying to point out fella is that Fox dont sell the micro jerks or indeed any jerk baits (other than replicants) so Andy's comments would have been in relation to his experience, rather than a subtle attempt at marketing, because there's nothing there to market!
Mark, thank's for the clarification, it's appreciated!
Now about these lures? It's a purely personal perspective. I enjoy their use and have had my successes, I don't see lures as the total solution. If you read earlier posts Mark you would have seen where I clearly state that the final decision on any venue is based upon water condition i.e. ''flood and dirty''. This combination has never been condusive to lure fishing,''for me''. I can only relate my own experiences over a wide area of the country, including your own turf, but that was some years ago. I enjoyed it then, and continue to enjoy it now.
Let me repeat my only objective was to dispel the myth, which so many appear to still believe. Stay loose big fella!!
Just seen this thread. For what its worth I’ve been piking for over 30 years and I have to say that my PB on the lure is 13 pounds as opposed to several twenties on deads. However, is that the point? Your pike may be smaller but you seem to catch more of them. Perhaps I might catch bigger if I fished big jerk baits but I prefer smaller lures which as well as pike pick up bonus perch, chub and the odd zander (if they are about). Don’t know about anyone else, but particularly in very cold weather I would rather roam the bank with just a rod, net, and small rucksack containing a thermos and a box of lures rather than sit on the bank all day and stare at a couple of buzzers.
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