Decline in Barbel Populations

[Peter Jacobs]

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[Judas Priest]

Some in vast quantities! On the kennet some were popping in 1 to 2 kg a swim and topping up.

Graham

Having seen it first hand on the Loddon Graham perhaps that's where part of the problem lay/lies, in that the smaller waterways such as the Kennet, Loddon, Teme etc are effected to a greater degree because of their size than the severn, trent, Thames etc.

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Absolutely. Totally agree.

And the rivers such as those including colne etc are giving up the odd big 11-16lb fish and very few smaller ones. On them you are far more likely to get a big one rather than less than 10lb.

If these are mainly females that have been unable to spawn..........what future.

Some are still in denial. There are barbel stockings now taking place on the Loddon.

This is on a river that has been self sustainable for the 45 years I have fished it.

It seems nearly all rivers now need stockings to survive. I can't believe all down to habitat change.

Certainly discharges of hormones into the river have had some effect if not the major one.. A sad situation

 

[Judas Priest]

Thing is Graham like I said quite a few posts ago, if all we're doing is tipping bucketfuls of barbel everywhere without identifying and sorting the underlying problems then in effect we are creating the muddy puddle carp orientated fisheries but on moving water with a different species.

If, and it's only an if, certain pellets/feed are proven to be detrimental to cyprinids then they need banning and anglers to be made aware of their responsibilities.

 

[Titus]

I knew we were on to them early Graham, the lad who was a coach worked at Patshull Park which is a put and take trout lake with a carp syndicate, he also had a stall on Wellington market 4 days a week where he sold fishing tackle.and ran a sort of informal crèche for anglers while the wives were shopping. He just mentioned in passing that he had hooked a few carp on his 'special' flies and you could almost see the light bulbs come on; within a few days a couple of the boys started taking the local pools apart with them, it was only a matter of time before they started to be used on the river and after that it was all downhill.

I'm sure we were not the only ones doing it as the pellet trick was well known in the fly fishing world and many an angler was filling their limit in the last hour of a poor day using a 'brown inevitable', it was only a short jump from there to them finding their way into the coarse world and the inevitable jump onto the tackle shop shelves.

Those early pellets were not as high in oil and broke down quicker than the later ones, a good way of turning them into groundbait was to soak them for a few minutes then pour off the excess water and leave them overnight, the result was a lovely light crumb which when mixed with white crumb was a perfect mix.
The hard bit in the early days was keeping them on the hook and it was only the hair rig which solved that problem. Some people were using a kind of bait band in the form of the elastics which all the kids had on their braces, working in the hospital that again was an easy acquisition for me and I could even get them in different strengths. That little sideline dried up when some bright spark started using thin slices of silicone catapult elastic which did the same job.
They were good days, when you add together the huge advances in tackle and the jumps in bait development it seemed as though there was something new coming along every day.

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Judas.
No doubt the oil ones ARE detrimental to cyprinds.

One of the aquaculture suppliers told me so.

As I said before. They both say very clearly on their websites that feed is for specific species. In this case salminoids.
Have a look at EWOS and SKRETTING sites. Very specific.

Both have decided not to respond now to queries. However neither have said they are harmless.

And won't. One has said they will try and educate their purchasers.

You would think this is something Barbel Organisations would be concerned with.
Im hoping SP will be able to advise, as requested, whether his sponsors bait falls into the high oil category or areas fish friendly.




Titus. Yes well ahead of the time 95pc of anglers only used pellets..


.

 

[Judas Priest]

If this is the case then Graham then surely the national group for that species should be leading the way in researching this further. No point in building gravels or just re stocking every couple of years IF the baits anglers are using are causing the problem or are a proven part of the problem in sustainability.

 

[cg74]

Maybe pellets are harmful to the reproductive cycle in fish, barbel in particular, I don't know.

What I do know is the rivers experiencing the greatest levels decline see next to nothing in the way of pellets (and never have); the Cherwell, Evenlode and Windrush.
Other rivers that have seen the barbel number dwindling are the likes of the Wey and Loddon (though the latter sees plenty of pellets).

All the rivers mentioned above share a few stark similarities; they get subjected to high levels of water abstraction, sewage discharge and agri chemicals.
Until those ills are addressed they are never going to successfully maintain a healthy barbel populations.

All this talk of hormones being in our rivers that might cause feminisation of male fish and whatever other mutations could be a valid concern but IMO it's overlooking the basics.
The contraceptive 'Pill' containing the hormones oestrogen and progesterone are taken by women to inhibit the release of eggs, therefore preventing pregnancy.
Surely it'll potentially disrupt fish in a similar way?? Unlike pellets though the levels of hormone discharge in sewage will be fairly constant all year round, whereas pellets are a very seasonal thing.

Agri chemicals are often overlooked but they're becoming very specialist killers; take the molluscicide metaldehyde, which is heavily used in oil seed rape production. It's capable of wiping out molluscs from miles of river with no viewable trace, as it won't harm much else.
But that's the barbel's food gone!

Water abstraction, that's pretty self explanatory...

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Professor Tyler separately said this.

Your theory is not a crazy one at all regarding diet and effect in fish. We know that for some cyprinid fish a faster growth rate means they are more likely to become females. So if the rivers are being stuffed with high protein feed it could be food rate alone that causes more females to be found there.

Unfortunately Cannot get any real interest to investigate further.. Shame. But they are foccussed on the longer term.

Lets see what comes back from Calverton.

Graham

 

[Judas Priest]

Graham, as I said

No point in making the riverbed cosy if in the meantime you're stopping them from doing what you're making the riverbed cosy for by feeding them harmful products.

As for the long term. This appears to be based on a couple of Southern rivers when in effect the decline is possibly widespread. Now whether this is down to feed or water quality or just nature redressing a balance is open to debate but surely something that purports to be the national voice should be getting involved.

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Colin. Wouldn't disagree with anything you have said.

But why such a marked decline over the past 6 or so years ? On so many rivers.


Judas. You would think there would be some interest about the above.


As I said 10 years ago I would watch 30 - 40 barbel spawning on the Loddon. Many suitable spawning grounds.

Above and below the weir at lower benyons on the kennet
They used to almost boil on the surface of a cattle drink above the weir.
Now.....nothing.

Both rivers would have barbel rolling at dusk. ...now..nothing.

Graham

 

[jasonbean1]

Maybe pellets are harmful to the reproductive cycle in fish, barbel in particular, I don't know.

What I do know is the rivers experiencing the greatest levels decline see next to nothing in the way of pellets (and never have); the Cherwell, Evenlode and Windrush.
Other rivers that have seen the barbel number dwindling are the likes of the Wey and Loddon (though the latter sees plenty of pellets).

All the rivers mentioned above share a few stark similarities; they get subjected to high levels of water abstraction, sewage discharge and agri chemicals.
Until those ills are addressed they are never going to successfully maintain a healthy barbel populations.

All this talk of hormones being in our rivers that might cause feminisation of male fish and whatever other mutations could be a valid concern but IMO it's overlooking the basics.
The contraceptive 'Pill' containing the hormones oestrogen and progesterone are taken by women to inhibit the release of eggs, therefore preventing pregnancy.
Surely it'll potentially disrupt fish in a similar way?? Unlike pellets though the levels of hormone discharge in sewage will be fairly constant all year round, whereas pellets are a very seasonal thing.

Agri chemicals are often overlooked but they're becoming very specialist killers; take the molluscicide metaldehyde, which is heavily used in oil seed rape production. It's capable of wiping out molluscs from miles of river with no viewable trace, as it won't harm much else.
But that's the barbel's food gone!

Water abstraction, that's pretty self explanatory...

I'll go with that Col....even the paid experts don't have the answers, as they say in there reports for the WFD "perception"...even in my mid forties I can seeing things getting worst on many rivers before they get better

 

[The bad one]

This is an interesting statement made in 2009 by the Endocrine Society. One that does need a reference in full and found at http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/er.2009-0002

Anybody who is anybody in the Endocrine world submits findings to this body for peer-reviewed publication. And if you want to lose the will to live and search the Abstract achieves you’ll find all the work done on fish by Profs Tyler, Sumpter and others globally. To read the full papers it’ll cost you $500 plus to subscribe to it.


Endocrine-Disrupting Chemicals: An Endocrine Society Scientific Statement
Evanthia Diamanti-Kandarakis, Jean-Pierre Bourguignon, Linda C. Giudice, Russ Hauser, Gail S. Prins, Ana M. Soto, R. Thomas Zoeller, and Andrea C. Gore

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Andrea C. Gore, Ph.D., The University of Texas at Austin, College of Pharmacy, 1 University Station, A1915, Austin, Texas 78712. E-mail: .
DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1210/er.2009-0002
Received: February 02, 2009
Accepted: April 17, 2009
Published Online: July 01, 2013
Abstract
There is growing interest in the possible health threat posed by endocrine-disrupting chemicals (EDCs), which are substances in our environment, food, and consumer products that interfere with hormone biosynthesis, metabolism, or action resulting in a deviation from normal homeostatic control or reproduction. In this first Scientific Statement of The Endocrine Society, we present the evidence that endocrine disruptors have effects on male and female reproduction, breast development and cancer, prostate cancer, neuroendocrinology, thyroid, metabolism and obesity, and cardiovascular endocrinology. Results from animal models, human clinical observations, and epidemiological studies converge to implicate EDCs as a significant concern to public health. The mechanisms of EDCs involve divergent pathways including (but not limited to) estrogenic, antiandrogenic, thyroid, peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor γ, retinoid, and actions through other nuclear receptors; steroidogenic enzymes; neurotransmitter receptors and systems; and many other pathways that are highly conserved in wildlife and humans, and which can be modeled in laboratory in vitro and in vivomodels. Furthermore, EDCs represent a broad class of molecules such as organochlorinated pesticides and industrial chemicals, plastics and plasticizers, fuels, and many other chemicals that are present in the environment or are in widespread use. We make a number of recommendations to increase understanding of effects of EDCs, including enhancing increased basic and clinical research, invoking the precautionary principle, and advocating involvement of individual and scientific society stakeholders in communicating and implementing changes in public policy and awareness.

 

[onemorelastcast]

Fortune for a Fortnight

Flightliner.
I'm pretty sure I wrote this in 2004.Not 100 pc sure. I guess I watched it being explained on a tv program re Hampton lode around 2006/7.

A few of us probably started using pellets in approx 2000/1

Maybe out of sinc though.

Graham.

Matt Hayes didn't discover the time bomb, it was apparently being used way before his claim on that programme. Just why vhe took the credit for it is a mystery, in what was a method that was widely used.

 

[flightliner]

Matt Hayes didn't discover the time bomb, it was apparently being used way before his claim on that programme. Just why vhe took the credit for it is a mystery, in what was a method that was widely used.

Exactly!. Anglers for decades have used feeders with variations of bait combinations, the groundbait/ pellet combo was old hat to some a good ten years before it was given the bait bomb title, to other unknown users maybe even longer.
Don't fall for the hype!!

 

[barbelboi]

Exactly!. Anglers for decades have used feeders with variations of bait combinations, the groundbait/ pellet combo was old hat to some a good ten years before it was given the bait bomb title, to other unknown users maybe even longer.
Don't fall for the hype!!

Yes Mick, 'Nothing new under the sun' has always been part of angling.....

 

[bennygesserit]

Surely the Barbel Society must be actively doing something about this ?

 

[jasonbean1]

bennny the only people that can do anything are the government, ea and defra...then only forced into it by compliance of the water frame work directive by EU legislation

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Surely the Barbel Society must be actively doing something about this ?

From what I can gather benny not, I like you would have thought they would have. It falls into the aims and objectives on which it was formed. No good keep re-stocking they need to find out what's going on with this decline. That is of course if the word conservation means anything apart from re-stocking?

There might just be to much own trumpet blowing going on though according to an insider.

Let's hope Graham can come up with more information.

Regards
Ray

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Ray.
I'm hoping the Bad One gets a view from Calverton regards the questions we formulated.

Apparently the BS have no interest in progressing any investigation despite the information from the manufacturers or Other scientific views that have been uncovered.

Their website has gone into sleep mode.
Graham