Carp with no lips!

[lightdragoon]

Caught a mirror today and was sad to see the poor thing had literally no lips left. Must have been caught hundreds of times. What do you normally do in a situation like this? I doubt the fishery would do anything, but does anyone apply anyspecial ointment or cream? I've seen it advertised before in fishing mags. LG

 

[cg74]

Explain the situation to the owner; euthanasia is the best course of action. It's what farmers do to sheep when they become broken mouthed and when pigs, cows etc reach the end of their productive life.

If no joy is forthcoming, name and shame the fishery and boycott the place!

When things have progressed as far as described, it's too late for a remedy. Using a carp care kit on a case like that is a bit like using an elastoplast to fix a broken leg.

 

[robtherake]

It's just one of the reasons not to fish commercials. I've seen fish whose mouths were so damaged that the hole had virtually healed over, leaving them just a tiny gap to feed and breathe through. Goodness knows how they were still managing to thrive.

 

[law]

euthanasia is the best course of action.

That's a bit extreme isn't it? It's clearly still feeding as our man here has caught it.

But as the post above states....this is why I will never fish a commercial carp fishery. All they do is give more ammunition to the anti fishing brigade.

 

[lightdragoon]

It's just one of the reasons not to fish commercials. I've seen fish whose mouths were so damaged that the hole had virtually healed over, leaving them just a tiny gap to feed and breathe through. Goodness knows how they were still managing to thrive.

What other options are there besides commercial for good carp fishing?

 

[Lord Paul of Sheffield]

Is it that the fish as been caught loads of times or that someone had dragged it out of reeds with a strong line and a big hook

 

[law]

What other options are there besides commercial for good carp fishing?

There is plenty of day ticket venues that aren't 'commercial'....

 

[guerrillafisher]

What other options are there besides commercial for good carp fishing?

There are other options out there and maybe closer to you than you think, I have found one excellent carp fishing spot local to me (all the fish in my gallery are "wild" except the one titled Cefn Mably) and a hard search on the internet has given me my next target in the Brecon beacons (not so local!) p$&%-y-@#!n reservoir, I have started a thread for people to discuss their "hidden waters" but I think everyone wants to keep them for themselves!

Will private message anyone who wants to know the names of any of the waters I have talked about as long as you promise not to eat the fish or rip their lips off!

 

[cg74]

That's a bit extreme isn't it? It's clearly still feeding as our man here has caught it.

But as the post above states....this is why I will never fish a commercial carp fishery. All they do is give more ammunition to the anti fishing brigade.

I don't think it's that extreme. Lets do away with any sentimentality; at the end of the day it's only a fish, a creature we exploit (basically a commodity), so not really any different to a farm animal.
As such should be culled out once (if) it becomes substandard.

It needs noting; you say you don't fish commercial waters but going by the pics taken of your recent trip to France, the fishery looks very much like a commercial water?

---------- Post added at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:35 ----------

Is it that the fish as been caught loads of times or that someone had dragged it out of reeds with a strong line and a big hook

I attribute the majority of mouth damage to a few factors; frequency of capture, small hooks and excessive pressure being exerted during the fight.

 

[bennygesserit]

I don't think it's that extreme. Lets do away with any sentimentality; at the end of the day it's only a fish, a creature we exploit (basically a commodity), so not really any different to a farm animal.
As such should be culled out once (if) it becomes substandard.

It needs noting; you say you don't fish commercial waters but going by the pics taken of your recent trip to France, the fishery looks very much like a commercial water?

---------- Post added at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:35 ----------
C


I attribute the majority of mouth damage to a few factors; frequency of capture, small hooks and excessive pressure being exerted during the fight.

Colin what is a small hook I use a size twelve for carp up to ten sometimes the book really embeds itself into the fish

 

[chub_on_the_block]

I think bad mouth damage has something to do with 1) use of heavy leads 2) use of heavy lines and over-powerful rods 3) poor unhooking skills

Some also argue that barbless hooks are worse.


I would like to know is the damage caused when the fish are still young and lips/mouth soft, or later when you would think they should be more resilient.

Whatever the cause it would be enough to put me off fishing an affected water and is one of the main reasons i have little interest in carp fishing. I have no intention to catch a known fish, particularly if it has been damaged by previous captures. Rather catch a smaller pristine or uncaught fish every time (even if it is an easier proposition).

 

[robtherake]

What other options are there besides commercial for good carp fishing?

I fish a couple of waters containing carp of similar size range to most commercials, where the stock density is far lower and the fish are harder to catch in quantity, but that's no bad thing - it encourages you to think a bit harder about your fishing.
The biggest difference, though, is that the fish are in rude health and are for the most part undamaged and in pristine, fighting fit condition.

A good bag at these venues might be 6 to 8 fish in a short evening session. They're usually much harder won than at a bagging venue and appreciated all the more because of that. I think the skull dragging of carp after carp with a "more, more, more" mentality frequently sees fish reduced to part of a tally, with a subsequent laxity in fish care which is inevitable in the circumstances. Not surprising, then, that the fish in many commercials look worse for wear.

Wouldn't you rather your fishing provided a bit more of a challenge, LD?

 

[mick b]

Im really pleased that no photographs were posted with this thread, such evidence is exactly what the 'anti' groups are looking for.


cj is right, the management of the fishery is very poor indeed and something should be done to prevent further adverse publicity.

Q: is the 'welfare' of the fish in an enclosed fishery a planning matter, trading standards, or ????


.

 

[law]

I don't think it's that extreme. Lets do away with any sentimentality; at the end of the day it's only a fish, a creature we exploit (basically a commodity), so not really any different to a farm animal.
As such should be culled out once (if) it becomes substandard.

It needs noting; you say you don't fish commercial waters but going by the pics taken of your recent trip to France, the fishery looks very much like a commercial water?

But then if every fish with mouth damage was culled, we'd lose (at a guess) over 50% of the countries carp.



When I say commercial, I mean lakes built for match fishing, full of tens of thousands of small carp, where you can go catch 100's of them a day and squash them all in a keepnet. Basically, where fish welfare isn't of primary concern. Hence the poor state of the fish.



The lake I fished isn't commercial at all. It's never been advertised and fish welfare is of utmost concern. 2 people were told to pack up and leave after the first night (they were on a week session) after sacking a mid 30 at night till the morning.

---------- Post added at 00:12 ---------- Previous post was at 00:01 ----------

I think bad mouth damage has something to do with 1) use of heavy leads 2) use of heavy lines and over-powerful rods 3) poor unhooking skills

Some also argue that barbless hooks are worse.


I would like to know is the damage caused when the fish are still young and lips/mouth soft, or later when you would think they should be more resilient.

Whatever the cause it would be enough to put me off fishing an affected water and is one of the main reasons i have little interest in carp fishing. I have no intention to catch a known fish, particularly if it has been damaged by previous captures. Rather catch a smaller pristine or uncaught fish every time (even if it is an easier proposition).

One of my clubs waters was built 15 years ago and stocked at the same time with fish from farms. So all uncaught fish.
There is a max hook size rule of 8, only running leads and no braided hook links.
Yet pretty much every carp has mouth damage.
I'm on the committee and we have the place netted every few years to sort out the stock, keep tabs etc and the guys who net it, are adamant that the most common cause of mouth damage is tiny hooks and fine lines. Tiny hooks rip out and fine lines act like cheese wire and saw through the corners of the mouth.

The barbless hook thing...I've heard that too but have never been able to work out why. I thought people insist on using barbed to stop the hook pulling in a fight, which could then end up in the fishes eye, flank or any other part of it.

 

[cg74]

But then if every fish with mouth damage was culled, we'd lose (at a guess) over 50% of the countries carp.



When I say commercial, I mean lakes built for match fishing, full of tens of thousands of small carp, where you can go catch 100's of them a day and squash them all in a keepnet. Basically, where fish welfare isn't of primary concern. Hence the poor state of the fish.



The lake I fished isn't commercial at all. It's never been advertised and fish welfare is of utmost concern. 2 people were told to pack up and leave after the first night (they were on a week session) after sacking a mid 30 at night till the morning.

---------- Post added at 00:12 ---------- Previous post was at 00:01 ----------





One of my clubs waters was built 15 years ago and stocked at the same time with fish from farms. So all uncaught fish.
There is a max hook size rule of 8, only running leads and no braided hook links.
Yet pretty much every carp has mouth damage.
I'm on the committee and we have the place netted every few years to sort out the stock, keep tabs etc and the guys who net it, are adamant that the most common cause of mouth damage is tiny hooks and fine lines. Tiny hooks rip out and fine lines act like cheese wire and saw through the corners of the mouth.

The barbless hook thing...I've heard that too but have never been able to work out why. I thought people insist on using barbed to stop the hook pulling in a fight, which could then end up in the fishes eye, flank or any other part of it.

When I say mouth damage I'm not referring to a nick in the corner of a mouth, I thinking of much more significant damage but it's nigh on impossible to put in writing what level of damage is acceptable or unacceptable; really it's a common sense thing.

Regards 50% of the national stocks of carp being culled; that figure (if true) just reinforces the level of mismanagement demonstrated nation wide.

If anybody is thinking of setting up a fishery, whether it's as a commercial fishery or a club lake; casualties/losses should always be thoroughly scrutinized and included as part of long term management strategy.

I understand where your coming from with the title "commercial fishery" but think for better clarity match pool and specimen lake might be better, as there's a huge grey area. The likes of Linear Fisheries Brasenose 1 and 2, they're very heavily stocked but don't fit the bracket of match fishery.

Colin what is a small hook I use a size twelve for carp up to ten sometimes the book really embeds itself into the fish

This is not an exact science but with carp in mind I'd call an old school size 12 or smaller, a 'small hook'

Hook patterns I describe as old school are the likes of Kamasan Animals and Drennan Carbon Specimen.

Obviously there are many variables that need factoring in, such as fish size.

 

[law]

When I say mouth damage I'm not referring to a nick in the corner of a mouth, I thinking of much more significant damage but it's nigh on impossible to put in writing what level of damage is acceptable or unacceptable; really it's a common sense thing.

Regards 50% of the national stocks of carp being culled; that figure (if true) just reinforces the level of mismanagement demonstrated nation wide.

If anybody is thinking of setting up a fishery, whether it's as a commercial fishery or a club lake; casualties/losses should always be thoroughly scrutinized and included as part of long term management strategy.

I understand where your coming from with the title "commercial fishery" but think for better clarity match pool and specimen lake might be better, as there's a huge grey area. The likes of Linear Fisheries Brasenose 1 and 2, they're very heavily stocked but don't fit the bracket of match fishery.



This is not an exact science but with carp in mind I'd call an old school size 12 or smaller, a 'small hook'

Hook patterns I describe as old school are the likes of Kamasan Animals and Drennan Carbon Specimen.

Obviously there are many variables that need factoring in, such as fish size.

Agreed on the analogy (or however its spelt). Mouth damage in my eyes, is where the mouth is so disfigured, it cannot move it's lips, or the mouth is no longer the natural size, therefore having to suck tiny bits of food in.
To put it in perspective...having to use a size 20 and a pinkie to catch 5-6lb carp because that is the only thing that will fit in the mouth.

Some people class any day ticket as commercial. Because anyone can go and fish it.
Is there actually a specific name for these lakes, hugely overstocked with little carp? Or is match pool as close as we can get? I'm a bit behind the times with the current lingo! I didn't even know what an F1 was till the other day. Lol.

 

[bennygesserit]

I fish a couple of waters containing carp of similar size range to most commercials, where the stock density is far lower and the fish are harder to catch in quantity, but that's no bad thing - it encourages you to think a bit harder about your fishing.
The biggest difference, though, is that the fish are in rude health and are for the most part undamaged and in pristine, fighting fit condition.

A good bag at these venues might be 6 to 8 fish in a short evening session. They're usually much harder won than at a bagging venue and appreciated all the more because of that. I think the skull dragging of carp after carp with a "more, more, more" mentality frequently sees fish reduced to part of a tally, with a subsequent laxity in fish care which is inevitable in the circumstances. Not surprising, then, that the fish in many commercials look worse for wear.

Wouldn't you rather your fishing provided a bit more of a challenge, LD?

6 - 8 carp in a short evening session isn't a bad haul for a commercial though I did once get about 18 fish in a couple of hours.

As for worse for wear isn't it simply a factor of being caught so often ? 200 fish in a lake with 20 pegs one would get that some fish are caught more than once a week.

As for the aesthetics of lipless fish if you managed to catch them then they managed to get your bait in their mouths somehow , therefore they are feeding.

---------- Post added at 13:12 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

When I say mouth damage I'm not referring to a nick in the corner of a mouth, I thinking of much more significant damage but it's nigh on impossible to put in writing what level of damage is acceptable or unacceptable; really it's a common sense thing.

Regards 50% of the national stocks of carp being culled; that figure (if true) just reinforces the level of mismanagement demonstrated nation wide.

If anybody is thinking of setting up a fishery, whether it's as a commercial fishery or a club lake; casualties/losses should always be thoroughly scrutinized and included as part of long term management strategy.

I understand where your coming from with the title "commercial fishery" but think for better clarity match pool and specimen lake might be better, as there's a huge grey area. The likes of Linear Fisheries Brasenose 1 and 2, they're very heavily stocked but don't fit the bracket of match fishery.



This is not an exact science but with carp in mind I'd call an old school size 12 or smaller, a 'small hook'

Hook patterns I describe as old school are the likes of Kamasan Animals and Drennan Carbon Specimen.

Obviously there are many variables that need factoring in, such as fish size.

Colin this is one of the rules at the place I fish most

Maximum Hook size 12

I understand they vary by manufacturer but for carp up to 10 lb on a method feeder I find the hook sometimes almost completely embeds itself in the fish requiring some manoeuvring with forceps to remove it.

Any thoughts ?

 

[cg74]

6 - 8 carp in a short evening session isn't a bad haul for a commercial though I did once get about 18 fish in a couple of hours.

As for worse for wear isn't it simply a factor of being caught so often ? 200 fish in a lake with 20 pegs one would get that some fish are caught more than once a week.

As for the aesthetics of lipless fish if you managed to catch them then they managed to get your bait in their mouths somehow , therefore they are feeding.

---------- Post added at 13:12 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------



Colin this is one of the rules at the place I fish most

Maximum Hook size 12

I understand they vary by manufacturer but for carp up to 10 lb on a method feeder I find the hook sometimes almost completely embeds itself in the fish requiring some manoeuvring with forceps to remove it.

Any thoughts ?

I imagine if your hook is that deeply embedded into the fishes lips/mouth your hook selection is too small and/or you're playing the fish too hard.

Hooks have come a long way in the last two decades, so much so, I reckon a size 14 Drennan Barbel hook (which is basically an old school sized hook) is stronger than an size 8 Kamasan Animal hook (or other similar patterns).

Add to that line improvements; 20yrs ago if you used a hooklink of 0.16mm it'd be 2.5-3lb bs, now that diameter would be 6lb+.

---------- Post added at 22:31 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

I think bad mouth damage has something to do with 1) use of heavy leads.

Nooooooo, don't give the must ditch the lead brigade more ammunition.

---------- Post added at 23:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:31 ----------

Agreed on the analogy (or however its spelt). Mouth damage in my eyes, is where the mouth is so disfigured, it cannot move it's lips, or the mouth is no longer the natural size, therefore having to suck tiny bits of food in.
To put it in perspective...having to use a size 20 and a pinkie to catch 5-6lb carp because that is the only thing that will fit in the mouth.

Some people class any day ticket as commercial. Because anyone can go and fish it.
Is there actually a specific name for these lakes, hugely overstocked with little carp? Or is match pool as close as we can get? I'm a bit behind the times with the current lingo! I didn't even know what an F1 was till the other day. Lol.

Essentially the term; "Commercial Fishery" refers to any fishery that is used for financial gain. I hate the title because in reality it is commonly used as a label for small match pools, which like I said leaves a huge grey area...

 

[Windy]

I'm not sure about this one, I fish a club water with an amazingly healthy and essentially scale perfect population of original 1950's King carp but with one exception, nicknamed "Parrot mouth".

No idea what happened or how or when, but this (much loved) fish has a badly distorted and scarred mouth, restricting the size and utility of the mouth opening. I suspect that it is unable to deal with or even get the local swan mussels etc into its distorted mouth. Hence it likes soft baits and is an absolute sucker (play on words intended) for soft bite sized floating crust.... sometimes three even four times in a session !

However.... why should anything need be done or moral high horses mounted ? It has been living with its handicap for over ten years to my certain knowledge, and any perceived handicap in its ability to forage hasn't stopped it reaching 16lbs odd. In what seems to be, otherwise, perfect and vigorous health. Go figure.

Just because nature has some not very nice stuff that we don't like to look at (like a three legged dog) doesn't mean that the animal concerned needs to be put down in its own interests. Or is it its own interests ? Or just a tribute to our modern day squeamishness and stuff.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

Theres been some excellent debate on here in the past about mouth damage. I vaguely remember the point being made that some of the more extreme forms - eg parrot mouths, can arise from bad practice when the fish was still quite small and lips still soft.

I think the frequency of capture is a major factor - even if 1/20 cases of playing/unhooking/etc cause it then it will become more prevalent in fish that are repeatedly captured.

I dont remember damage being as widepread 30 years ago. But maybe carp were not getting caught so often then.

I do think modern emphasis upon stronger lines and skulldragging - reeling in against a fish rather than pumping it in, are factors. I was watching an old John Wilson video earlier where he was trotting for barbel on the Royalty using 4Ib Line!! OK so you may get snapped up 75% of the time unless you are highly skilled, which leaves a fish with a hook and hooklength trailing behind it. But the modern equivalent of 10Ib mono or 20Ib Braid might be more damaging even if you dont lose the fish - just because of the extra forces that will be applied through the hooking point in the fishes mouth while playing it. Just my thoughts of course, as usual no evidence either way. But i do suspect more pwerful rods and line are the culprits (along with poor fish playing or unhooking skills).

---------- Post added at 00:06 ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 23:58 ----------

However.... why should anything need be done or moral high horses mounted ? It has been living with its handicap for over ten years to my certain knowledge, and any perceived handicap in its ability to forage hasn't stopped it reaching 16lbs odd. In what seems to be, otherwise, perfect and vigorous health. Go figure.

Just because nature has some not very nice stuff that we don't like to look at (like a three legged dog) doesn't mean that the animal concerned needs to be put down in its own interests. Or is it its own interests ? Or just a tribute to our modern day squeamishness and stuff.

I wouldnt disagree. I have a Koi in my garden pond that has never seen a hook but damaged its mouth on a sharp twig (idiot). Even though the wound has now healed it sucks noisily and violently at pellets etc like a complete bell end. The others are far more serene in the way they glide up to pellets and casually take them like complete professionals.