Super Baits

wanderer

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
928
Reaction score
0
Location
NENE VALLEY
Okay guys, I explored your views on alternative baits, you are aware of my love of peanuts and fermented particle, recipes given by PM if required, is there a super bait out there somewhere that we don't know about. On the river, I have never found a better bait than sweetcorn, have you. Lakes , yep, I did a campaign to find the super boilie, two lads , bait consultants for a reputable bait company filled it in long term and their results were impressive. The question I ask of you , is it merely bait familiarisation and quantity of bait going in, or is there an instant super bait lurking out there, boilie or other. Come on Laguna, YOUR INPUT IS PARTICULARLY WELCOMED ON THIS ISSUE.
 

laguna

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
3,280
Reaction score
27
Location
Bradford, West Yorkshire
Peanuts? your nuts mate!

I cannot do this thread any justice as quite simply; I do not have all the answers. All I can say is, is that there is no such thing as best, only better. Better on the day and each days different. Fish need variety (as do all living creatures) and its why no single food/bait item could ever sustain fish long term. Its probably for the same reason why we need to keep changing our baits from one day to the next, even hour to hour?

We all have our favourites, mine is bread by no means exclusive. Flake, mash, punch... its the yeast that does it! No doubt in my mind whatsoever why it works so well. Man cannot live by bread alone, as the saying goes and its true of fish too, but the important point here is to understand that no single food item is complete, there is always some important (essential) nutrient that's missing such as for example an amino acid. If anyone dismisses the role that amino acids play in nutrition and attraction, or that nutrition plays no part in angling then you must be a golfer? My brothers a golfer and he once left his (my) rod unattended so I looked after his (actually my) rod and went off to the shop for a bottle of pop. Upon his return I landed his (my) 3lb roach and he witnessed it c.1973 river Calder, Brighouse. Nothing against anglers who play golf. :D

Maggots are pretty good too aren't they? The worse day for fishing maggot is a Monday after a Sunday match when the lakes been hammered in my experience, yet the humble maggot is simply one of the best baits out there along with bread and corn and worm. So why don't they work everywhere and always? The answer is because maggots only fulfil part of what fish require. It is my belief that adding an essential first-limiting amino acid to an already successful bait makes them feed for longer on that bait - without having to worry about swapping to see what they might want next. Same goes for corn and the worm (a choppy worm is full of amino acids and is far and above better than a live wriggly one) and chopped maggots are repulsive.

Like a lot of guys, I've been fishing since I was a young boy, admittedly I'm pretty adamant on why my success rate has soured in recent years, I attribute that to my better understanding of what 'turns fish on' but more importantly I started questioning 'what turns fish off'! Knowing what turns them off, it was hoped, would enlighten me to knowing why they were turned on to a particular bait/food item. Avoiding to use what turns them off however is not so simple when a variety of nutrients interact as a cocktail but at least I do know, some of what works and some that do not. I also know some that do but should not in an ideal world for the same reason why the fat bird cannot pass a chippy, we all eat things we shouldn't but I digress... I concluded long ago that fish have preferences, but more importantly they have a preference for a particular nutrient at certain times of year and in its life time. Call it an innate ability if you like but there is no doubt that fish can and do seek out certain nutrients and are 'switch on' to them. Fish have 10 requirements for essential amino acids that is; they are unable to synthesise them for themselves and must seek them out in their diet. Adding all 10 to a bait is the obvious approach (as a bait maker its easy), swapping and changing baits frequently is the way of the angler.

Amino acids are just but one way to entice a fish, some amino acids repel, generally the L-types have a positive influence so its not always so straight forward. Minerals too are important, particularly the electrolytes and would be a good addition to any bait when making up your own.

If your looking for a single magic bait I'm afraid it doesn't exist. Yes you can name a successful bait, as can everyone and we all have our own experiences some good all-rounder that historically gets results. But whatever it is, it isn't perfect, not even Laguna's own 'better than the sliced proverbial' and that's quite a statement, in fact any change bait, ordinary or otherwise in the hands of a novice, could potentially out fish any other on the day.

I think bait familiarisation is crucial, its what encourages fish to switch from naturals onto man-made and its why campaigning will work, but once they're on it and its in plentiful supply (not getting caught each time they get a gob full), they will continue to feed confidently and make the switch. If they get hammered the bait will blow. If its all that's mostly on offer to them, they will turn off pretty quickly - unless it can equal the nutritional value of a variety of different naturals, it hasn't got a chance.

The obvious question here is why if naturals are so good would they switch to a man-made in the first place? Its not so much a question of why as most on here know; they could quite easily sustain themselves on naturals and they prefer them, more the low quantity that might exist on any given venue, the over stocking and numbers of competing fish for a given resource, and because fish are greedy and will eat like there's no tomorrow given a chance. A fish will for example, feed with abandon in times of plenty such as a hatch and quite simply ignore everything the angler throws at them. Yet once its over it will, and must, again eat a variety of different foods in order to live and grow healthy. It doesn't take intelligence or learned behaviour to switch back on to a harvest. A hatch is a seasonal event and the fish instinctively know they must eat NOW as nature dictates it will be of very short duration.

Fish will eat anything, I can catch on a bit of plastic, bare hook etc.... a common response but I'll save the trouble by saying this...
Sure fish are stupid, its sometimes easy to trip up a good fish, they make mistakes and are pretty easy to fool sometimes (particularly juvenile fish who want to eat everything) and that's why many anglers like to go fishing, all anglers of all ages can take part in this wonderful pastime and catch fish. Sometimes you can get instant results without having to know the how or why, in fact, for most, I would probably say knowing and thinking is the curse that can sometimes spoil the experience. But there comes a time when we want to know for just wanting, to learn and improve and we all keep learning... even after nearly 50 years in my case, its what we do with the information offered and learned that's the hard motivator to change some of what we know and have learned before.

Yes fish may be stupid, indeed they are but what they lack in intelligence they more than make up for in instinct and innate ability to detect and seek out a preferred nutrient.

Last word. Mould and bacteria (of the friendly kind), a pre-digest in particular, are simply unequivocally, superlative, most uncontestedly - the preferred ingredient in any bait.

Hope you have a good weekend! :)
 

greenie62

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
3,433
Reaction score
3
Location
Wigan
...I cannot do this thread any justice as quite simply; I do not have all the answers. All I can say is, is that there is no such thing as best, only better.....

Nice one, Chris,
Good post - looks like the good basis for an article. [Note to Editor: how about commissioning one?]

Tight Lines :thumbs:
 

wanderer

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
928
Reaction score
0
Location
NENE VALLEY
Peanuts? your nuts mate!

I cannot do this thread any justice as quite simply; I do not have all the answers. All I can say is, is that there is no such thing as best, only better. Better on the day and each days different. Fish need variety (as do all living creatures) and its why no single food/bait item could ever sustain fish long term. Its probably for the same reason why we need to keep changing our baits from one day to the next, even hour to hour?

We all have our favourites, mine is bread by no means exclusive. Flake, mash, punch... its the yeast that does it! No doubt in my mind whatsoever why it works so well. Man cannot live by bread alone, as the saying goes and its true of fish too, but the important point here is to understand that no single food item is complete, there is always some important (essential) nutrient that's missing such as for example an amino acid. If anyone dismisses the role that amino acids play in nutrition and attraction, or that nutrition plays no part in angling then you must be a golfer? My brothers a golfer and he once left his (my) rod unattended so I looked after his (actually my) rod and went off to the shop for a bottle of pop. Upon his return I landed his (my) 3lb roach and he witnessed it c.1973 river Calder, Brighouse. Nothing against anglers who play golf. :D

Maggots are pretty good too aren't they? The worse day for fishing maggot is a Monday after a Sunday match when the lakes been hammered in my experience, yet the humble maggot is simply one of the best baits out there along with bread and corn and worm. So why don't they work everywhere and always? The answer is because maggots only fulfil part of what fish require. It is my belief that adding an essential first-limiting amino acid to an already successful bait makes them feed for longer on that bait - without having to worry about swapping to see what they might want next. Same goes for corn and the worm (a choppy worm is full of amino acids and is far and above better than a live wriggly one) and chopped maggots are repulsive.

Like a lot of guys, I've been fishing since I was a young boy, admittedly I'm pretty adamant on why my success rate has soured in recent years, I attribute that to my better understanding of what 'turns fish on' but more importantly I started questioning 'what turns fish off'! Knowing what turns them off, it was hoped, would enlighten me to knowing why they were turned on to a particular bait/food item. Avoiding to use what turns them off however is not so simple when a variety of nutrients interact as a cocktail but at least I do know, some of what works and some that do not. I also know some that do but should not in an ideal world for the same reason why the fat bird cannot pass a chippy, we all eat things we shouldn't but I digress... I concluded long ago that fish have preferences, but more importantly they have a preference for a particular nutrient at certain times of year and in its life time. Call it an innate ability if you like but there is no doubt that fish can and do seek out certain nutrients and are 'switch on' to them. Fish have 10 requirements for essential amino acids that is; they are unable to synthesise them for themselves and must seek them out in their diet. Adding all 10 to a bait is the obvious approach (as a bait maker its easy), swapping and changing baits frequently is the way of the angler.

Amino acids are just but one way to entice a fish, some amino acids repel, generally the L-types have a positive influence so its not always so straight forward. Minerals too are important, particularly the electrolytes and would be a good addition to any bait when making up your own.

If your looking for a single magic bait I'm afraid it doesn't exist. Yes you can name a successful bait, as can everyone and we all have our own experiences some good all-rounder that historically gets results. But whatever it is, it isn't perfect, not even Laguna's own 'better than the sliced proverbial' and that's quite a statement, in fact any change bait, ordinary or otherwise in the hands of a novice, could potentially out fish any other on the day.

I think bait familiarisation is crucial, its what encourages fish to switch from naturals onto man-made and its why campaigning will work, but once they're on it and its in plentiful supply (not getting caught each time they get a gob full), they will continue to feed confidently and make the switch. If they get hammered the bait will blow. If its all that's mostly on offer to them, they will turn off pretty quickly - unless it can equal the nutritional value of a variety of different naturals, it hasn't got a chance.

The obvious question here is why if naturals are so good would they switch to a man-made in the first place? Its not so much a question of why as most on here know; they could quite easily sustain themselves on naturals and they prefer them, more the low quantity that might exist on any given venue, the over stocking and numbers of competing fish for a given resource, and because fish are greedy and will eat like there's no tomorrow given a chance. A fish will for example, feed with abandon in times of plenty such as a hatch and quite simply ignore everything the angler throws at them. Yet once its over it will, and must, again eat a variety of different foods in order to live and grow healthy. It doesn't take intelligence or learned behaviour to switch back on to a harvest. A hatch is a seasonal event and the fish instinctively know they must eat NOW as nature dictates it will be of very short duration.

Fish will eat anything, I can catch on a bit of plastic, bare hook etc.... a common response but I'll save the trouble by saying this...
Sure fish are stupid, its sometimes easy to trip up a good fish, they make mistakes and are pretty easy to fool sometimes (particularly juvenile fish who want to eat everything) and that's why many anglers like to go fishing, all anglers of all ages can take part in this wonderful pastime and catch fish. Sometimes you can get instant results without having to know the how or why, in fact, for most, I would probably say knowing and thinking is the curse that can sometimes spoil the experience. But there comes a time when we want to know for just wanting, to learn and improve and we all keep learning... even after nearly 50 years in my case, its what we do with the information offered and learned that's the hard motivator to change some of what we know and have learned before.

Yes fish may be stupid, indeed they are but what they lack in intelligence they more than make up for in instinct and innate ability to detect and seek out a preferred nutrient.

Last word. Mould and bacteria (of the friendly kind), a pre-digest in particular, are simply unequivocally, superlative, most uncontestedly - the preferred ingredient in any bait.

Hope you have a good weekend! :)

Yep, enjoyed it mate, lots of common sense stuff, thanks.
 

robtherake

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2013
Messages
3,252
Reaction score
3
Location
North Yorkshire
Last word. Mould and bacteria (of the friendly kind), a pre-digest in particular, are simply unequivocally, superlative, most uncontestedly - the preferred ingredient in any bait.
:)

I've always sworn that my particle mixes get better with age, despite the pretty serious pong - you can still smell it with the (tightly-fitting) lid on. If a mouldy crust develops it just gets mixed in. :) Last time out the bulk had been "cooking" for a week under the camper during a hot spell, with catches improving day-on-day despite fishing a variety of different swims. Margin-caught carp looked as if they'd been rolling in the stuff! Maybe they had?
 

laguna

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
3,280
Reaction score
27
Location
Bradford, West Yorkshire
I've always sworn that my particle mixes get better with age, despite the pretty serious pong - you can still smell it with the (tightly-fitting) lid on. If a mouldy crust develops it just gets mixed in. :) Last time out the bulk had been "cooking" for a week under the camper during a hot spell, with catches improving day-on-day despite fishing a variety of different swims. Margin-caught carp looked as if they'd been rolling in the stuff! Maybe they had?

I think so.
But I also think there's a cautionary note which I'm compelled to mention and that is one of safety. If a bait is allowed to fester unchecked, there comes a point when it will become inedible. Everything has a shelf-life or 'best before', well not quite everything as some foods mature with age but most do anyway. Knowing those limits are key to why a good bait works so well and why some don't, particularly why fish find them so attractive.

Generally we do not know what those mould spores are just by looking at it, but knowing what it grows on might give us some clues. I think we can safely say that bread mould and cheese mould for example is good (very good), but an unpleasant odour from meat is a sure sign that its off. Oily type baits keep okay but then quickly spoil when exposed to the air. Peanut mould kills fish but on the other hand we have fermentation and the actions on enzymes to consider too. These offer the angler fantastic opportunities in the form of over-ripeness and the natural pre-digestion of foodstuff.

Fresh is not always best Imo as they offer the least attraction. I would personally opt for stale, slightly musty, well fermented and damp.
 

wanderer

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
928
Reaction score
0
Location
NENE VALLEY
I will probably get told off, but the bulk of my particle is hemp, chicks and mini tigers, with some peanuts, but to preserve it , rock salt and molasses , let it ferment then boil it, allow it to ferment again and then just warm it up not boil every four days or so, it keeps for ever, great bait.
 

laguna

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
3,280
Reaction score
27
Location
Bradford, West Yorkshire
Fermented particles are great, I'm only surprised other anglers don't consider them more and think its only good for the carp. There's actually lots of continental mixes that include seeds and crushed birdfoods, legumes and stuff so why not? and its cheap!
 

robtherake

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2013
Messages
3,252
Reaction score
3
Location
North Yorkshire
Fermented particles are great, I'm only surprised other anglers don't consider them more and think its only good for the carp. There's actually lots of continental mixes that include seeds and crushed birdfoods, legumes and stuff so why not? and its cheap!

My mix is pigeon conditioner, hemp, corn and/or maize, plus whatever pulses and seeds are in the kitchen cupboards. Salt, molasses/ malt extract and chillies finish it off. It gets added to over time, much like the kitchen stewpots of old. It's a great groundbait additive as well as working well in its own right as a carpet feed. The only drawback is the pong, which can be pretty appalling, especially in the warmer months.
 
Top