We only need to catch em not feed em or treat em like pets!

[laguna]

I know not everyone subscribes to the HNV view (High Nutritional Value), a term originally coined by Fred Wilton which has become synonymous with specimen carp anglers, or biological/balanced BNV baits or even the new protein modern American standards PDCAAS*. But the bait doesn't have to be the very best quality, complete or solely intended for carp. Anything on the whole that's nutritious will do like a chick pea or bean, worm or berry. Its variety that's key because no food item is nutritionally complete, even the naturals have limitations (hence the reasoning behind HNV being formulated to be all encompassing) and probably why a change bait may work? and here's the thing.... you don't really have to have a degree in fish nutrition or food sciences to understand that by feeding **** and 'flavours' (of the ill-prepared, synthetic and adulterated kind) your probably missing a trick - dismissing the very thing that's common to all fish - their natural ability to detect and actively seek out (and be stimulated by) certain micro nutrients.

Are fish intelligent enough to differentiate what is nutritious? Probably not because they can be caught on practically anything up to a point, but what they lack in intelligence they more than make up for in instinct and senses. They have the innate ability to do so and learn because they are all to some degree stimulated by/geared towards seeking out real nutrients... they will feed confidently and consistently on particles and spod mixes for example like robots and yet sometimes ignore an artificially flavoured sweet smelling 50:50 boilie sat amongst it all.

I don't wish to labour that point about flavours or convert anyone as we all think differently, so I'm just suggesting that for anyone thinking that HNV is overly expensive or that nutrition plays no part in angling please think again... try real-food baits and particles on the hook instead or a good shelf-life boilie rehydrated in fruit juice or a Glycerite that offers the fish the nutrients they crave because sadly; they're now so well packed and stuffed into puddles they can only rely on what you feed them to survive.

Given a choice, a properly prepared particle, naturals and all unadulterated real-food baits (and wholesome decent soluble boilies) will land you fish always, everywhere and repeatedly on lake or river without much encouragement or campaign - cheap too!

* Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score

 

[peterjg]

Following on from Laguna's post. Boilies have been used at least since the 70s, millions have been chucked into our lakes and rivers. All shapes, colours and sizes. For years (mainly) carp have been caught using these baits. Logically, if these carp keep being caught on little round balls (boilies) they are eventually going to be scared of them or treat them with suspicion - however good they are or how nice they smell! So use somethingu different!

For 19 years I fished a very clear 50 acre pit in the Colne Valley. Usually for a 3 or 4 night session per week and for most of that time had my own rowing boat. It was fascinating when rowing out over my baited spots to find just how fussy the carp could be. Sometimes the baited areas were totally cleared or untouched, other times the carp would eat only the corn or only the boilies or only the tiger nuts - they used to drive me nuts! Sometimes the baits would only be taken after 2 or 3 days. I found that some areas of the lake the carp would not feed at all - don't know why?

Anyway, getting back to Laguna's point, by far the best bait was a few tigers over either wheat or hemp - not boilies, some bits of sausage worked very well too. Also casting just to one side of a baited are worked.

 

[mick b]

What evidence supports the claim that fish have a "natural ability to detect and actively seek out (and be naturally stimulated by) certain micro nutrients"
.....

Why oh why does an any angler have to use anything beyond the normal range of accepted baits to catch an animal with a brain the size of a pea?
There seems to be a non stop campaign to encourage anglers to believe that Carp are some super Genus of fish, they are not, their brain is just the same as every other fish in our waters.

For the thinking Carp angler I offer the following,
Many natural carp lakes are surrounded by trees, often oak trees which produce an annual crop of acorns, acorns are highly nutritious which is why the country people of Iberia eat them and also use the annual crop to produce the superb Iberico Jamon Bellotta (air dried ham).

On my lake, which is surrounded with large oaks, I regularly watch anglers casting man made artificial baits into the centre of the lake while the Carp happily grub away under the oak trees seeking fallen acorns.
I suggest the same would happen with Chestnuts but I haven't observed this as the lake doesn't have any.
The point is, these Carp will probably hear the initial plop of a first falling acorn and ignore it, then in their wanderings they find and eat it, another plop nearby and they see the sinking acorn, wander over and finding the acorn they eat it, because it doesn't kill them they return when they hear more 'plops' because they know it means food.....they are doing this through learned association (similar to Pavlov's dogs).....not because of the high HNV or some much publicised, latest fad additive that is attracting them, just a perfectly natural and perfectly harmless food.
So if you fed something and at the same time produced a sound Carp could hear you could eventually get the Carp coming to the sound every time they heard it, provided food was there when they arrived (the opposite could be when a bivvy peg is bashed in ).

Has no carp angler ever thought what the monks of the old monasteries fed their stew pond carp on, because they certainly didn't grow fast or fat on fresh water or weed......and there were no highly expensive or profit making additives available on-line either.

Lastly given the Carp some anglers are catching on lures, the Bent Minnow especially, I'm amazed more Carp anglers don't look a little further than a latest boilie additive, it has a lot going for it, one rod and reel, covers a lot of water quickly and you only buy the bait once.

Not a Carp angler, but I do like looking at them....insert huge smiley here.


.

 

[laguna]

What evidence supports the claim that fish have a "natural ability to detect and actively seek out (and be naturally stimulated by) certain micro nutrients"

Seriously? Every single creature on the planet craves a variety of different nutrients, it ensures their very survival, its instinct rather than intellegence as we know or perceive it. Carp for example are known to occasionally ignore food in preference to salt and minerals they find in the mud, they also have receptors on the head and snout which tells them what it is. Hundreds of articles written on the subject if you care to look.

You could also look at the pig farming industry for examples of first limiting amino acids incorporated in feeds which stimulates growth and appetite (not that I know of any pig that needs encouragement to eat)... my point is though that it doesnt take intelligence to eat a variety of the 'right' foodstuff, my fish will become preoccupied on garden peas for example - to the absolute exclusion of anything else edible in the tank.

 

[barbelboi]

Clever fish these carp - with all our intelligence we need scientists to tell us what's good for us and labels on all products reminding us.........................

 

[laguna]

Not just carp jerry and they're not intelligent its a genetic trait in multicellular organisms, wouldnt want to think theyre cleverer than a simple non carper!

 

[mick b]

Seriously? Every single creature on the planet craves a variety of different nutrients, it ensures their very survival, its instinct rather than intellegence as we know or perceive it. Carp for example are known to occasionally ignore food in preference to salt and minerals they find in the mud, they also have receptors on the head and snout which tells them what it is. Hundreds of articles written on the subject if you care to look.

You could also look at the pig farming industry for examples of first limiting amino acids incorporated in feeds which stimulates growth and appetite (not that I know of any pig that needs encouragement to eat)... my point is though that it doesnt take intelligence to eat a variety of the 'right' foodstuff, my fish will become preoccupied on garden peas for example - to the absolute exclusion of anything else edible in the tank.

And Jerry,
"ensures their very survival"
So how do you explain why a Carp will eat a non-natural 'bait' that will do the exact opposite and kill it
......

Yes I care to look......if you are talking about Carp, will you post the ref. to the peer reviewed papers please?
.....

Unlike Carp, Pigs are highly intelligent animals, certainly the highest order of all our domesticated livestock.
I have never known a Pig eat anything that will kill it, unlike sheep (Yew) horses (Ragwort) and cattle (plastic bags, binder twine and nails).

Pigs are injected with growth promoters or where when I was injecting them, we also cut out their testicals (to remove the piggy taste and smell from the meat) but I think this practice has now been discontinued as has the injecting cockerels with female hormone (to produce a capon).

.

 

[cg74]

And Jerry,
"ensures their very survival"
So how do you explain why a Carp will eat a non-natural 'bait' that will do the exact opposite and kill it
......

Yes I care to look......if you are talking about Carp, will you post the ref. to the peer reviewed papers please?
.....

Unlike Carp, Pigs are highly intelligent animals, certainly the highest order of all our domesticated livestock.
I have never known a Pig eat anything that will kill it, unlike sheep (Yew) horses (Ragwort) and cattle (plastic bags, binder twine and nails).

Pigs are injected with growth promoters or where when I was injecting them, we also cut out their testicals (to remove the piggy taste and smell from the meat) but I think this practice has now been discontinued as has the injecting cockerels with female hormone (to produce a capon).

.

Pigs most certainly DO eat things that will kill them; a prime example of this being rat poison, both coated corn and fat based variants. Also unmilled wheat and I'm not referring to restrict fed animals but pigs that are fed ad-lib.

The practice of injecting growth promoters was banned 30+ years ago and infeed growth promoters were effectively banned 20+ years ago.
Castration of pigs has not been "discontinued", it can only be practiced after consultation with a vet, the same as tail docking, this has been the case for 30+ years.

 

[The bad one]

Agree Colin as will all mammals including us man.

In long discussions with a mate who really knows about this type of stuff (Self taught), he'd always argue fish will eat what's good for them. Leaving out the part that all creatures will also eat what's bad for them if it has a smell and taste that’s palatable to them.
Chris peas being a case in point, in vast quantities it destroys the liver leading to death. A fact I learned over 40 years ago on the first fisheries management course I did. The course was aimed at fish keepers as well as anglers and involved autopsies of fish. One of the fish keepers had a mate who’s expensive Koi Carp kept crocking it. So the guy asked the lecturer (DR Chris Goldspink) would he take a look at a recently deceased fish to try and find out why the fish were dying.

The autopsy revealed the liver was shot to pieces, in fact it didn’t have much of it left. CG ruled out other diseases, illness, pathogens known to cause liver damage then turn his attention to diet and what they were being feed on. Turns out the bloke who owned them was feeding them vast quantities of peas, with little else as a supplement.

In total over the 13 weeks of the course we autopsied 5 of this guy’s carp and all had the same symptoms. CG did some digging in the literature re peas their chemical breakdown composition, toxicity and that toxicological effects of it on fish livers. The detail of which I’ve long forgot, but there was a clear link even then in the literature, peas were not that good for carp.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

Perhaps the discerning carp will only go for the HNV Boilies with healthy traffic light symbols on them. I think it was Jerry above who put me on to this brainwave.

At this time of year wheatgerm in the mix is supposed to be good fuel for winter. Well, they sell Koi food pellets like that at this time of the year, so must be right.

 

[laguna]

Mick if you know the answer as to why the fat bird eats all the pies and dies prematurely you will realise why intelligence has nothing to do with preferences and cravings, pica.
Fish and animals will seek out a variety of foods to supplement their diet, if they only ate just one thing they wouldn't grow healthy or reach maturity. Single and lower value foods are obviously nutritionally poor and generally less palatable but that's not to say they wont gorge on a bumper crop or something tasty that's detrimental to their health in times of plenty. Same goes for bears selectively eating the brains of salmon in a run, elk and deer seeking out a salt lick... what the hell does salt smell like or a snail or worm?

Peer reviewed lol, really?
I have no desire or inclination to troll through and site years of research please subscribe and read the evidence for yourself.
Its common knowledge amongst all aqua culturists. As I said its not specific to carp, though they are the most studied, goldfish and Koi in particular.

Thanks Phil I was aware of the problems with peas fed in excess (not specifically damage to the liver though thanks for that), many hobby fish keepers suggest they feed peas only occasionally (once or twice a week as a supplement) to aid digestion/constipation/swim bladder problems. The point I was trying to make is that given a choice and variety, they would eventually switch and eat other things too, the peas I feed mine are an occasional treat, eating things with abandon in times of plenty... wild fish eating nuts and tubers, roe etc. and a hatch, they wont eat anything else until its over.

PS. as far as I'm aware, it's the skins on the peas that are indigestible, same with the skins on sweetcorn most probably.

 

[punch man]

Not a carp angler "Chris peas"? What are these?

 

[cg74]

What evidence supports the claim that fish have a "natural ability to detect and actively seek out (and be naturally stimulated by) certain micro nutrients"
.....

Why oh why does an any angler have to use anything beyond the normal range of accepted baits to catch an animal with a brain the size of a pea?
There seems to be a non stop campaign to encourage anglers to believe that Carp are some super Genus of fish, they are not, their brain is just the same as every other fish in our waters.

For the thinking Carp angler I offer the following,
Many natural carp lakes are surrounded by trees, often oak trees which produce an annual crop of acorns, acorns are highly nutritious which is why the country people of Iberia eat them and also use the annual crop to produce the superb Iberico Jamon Bellotta (air dried ham).

On my lake, which is surrounded with large oaks, I regularly watch anglers casting man made artificial baits into the centre of the lake while the Carp happily grub away under the oak trees seeking fallen acorns.
I suggest the same would happen with Chestnuts but I haven't observed this as the lake doesn't have any.
The point is, these Carp will probably hear the initial plop of a first falling acorn and ignore it, then in their wanderings they find and eat it, another plop nearby and they see the sinking acorn, wander over and finding the acorn they eat it, because it doesn't kill them they return when they hear more 'plops' because they know it means food.....they are doing this through learned association (similar to Pavlov's dogs).....not because of the high HNV or some much publicised, latest fad additive that is attracting them, just a perfectly natural and perfectly harmless food.
So if you fed something and at the same time produced a sound Carp could hear you could eventually get the Carp coming to the sound every time they heard it, provided food was there when they arrived (the opposite could be when a bivvy peg is bashed in ).

Has no carp angler ever thought what the monks of the old monasteries fed their stew pond carp on, because they certainly didn't grow fast or fat on fresh water or weed......and there were no highly expensive or profit making additives available on-line either.

Lastly given the Carp some anglers are catching on lures, the Bent Minnow especially, I'm amazed more Carp anglers don't look a little further than a latest boilie additive, it has a lot going for it, one rod and reel, covers a lot of water quickly and you only buy the bait once.

Not a Carp angler, but I do like looking at them....insert huge smiley here.


.

Carp are a product of man's engineering, there's nothing natural about them. As for comparing the carp farmed by monks and modern strains is utterly ridiculous, so much so I have no desire to discuss it.

Are you sure the brain of a 20lb adult carp the size of a pea?

Aren't acorns toxic to fish?
That reminds me; acorns are poisonous to pigs, it causes pregnant females to abort, which can prove fatal.
Add to that list woody nightshade and deadly nightshade, some pigs do eat the berries....

 

[Titus]

Why do we bother to prepare seed baits? Millions of tons of seeds find their way into waterways every year and have to be consumed by fish and none of them are boiled so why do we bother?

 

[The bad one]

An interesting question Adrian? I suspect it’s our human conditioning that seeds need to be manipulated in some way boiled, roasted, toasted, etc to make them soft and easier to digest, extracting the most nutrition value out of them.

From a fishes point of view that clearly can’t happen, but what they do, is take them in to the throat teeth and attempt to crush them. If they can’t the seed is rejected. The digestive system of a fish is quite rudimentary and inefficient compared to mammals. Consisting of a long tube, no stomach or intestines as such. By crushing food items in the teeth it allows the rudimentary system to extract enough nutrients for survival and growth. So many of those millions of tones of seeds entering the waters are probably rejected by the fish and only the ones crushable are taken.
So to aid the crushability we prepare them by manipulation in some way so the fish will take them.

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

Why do we bother to prepare seed baits? Millions of tons of seeds find their way into waterways every year and have to be consumed by fish and none of them are boiled so why do we bother?

Well Titus, I have said on here a few times, I don't boil all my hemp, as you boil all the goodness out. I soak mine as normal, it sinks the same. I add this to ground bait mixes and i feed it on its own when trotting. I do also use cooked hemp, but not always. The late Fred Crouch put me onto it, he used un cooked hemp.

Wild seed doesn't get cooked before it gets into our waters, so it is therefore more natural than cooked seed, BUT remember it is soaking when in the water.

So anyone thinking of using un cooked seeds, SOAK it first.

Fish, Animals, Humans,all eat when hunger starts, fish will always eat the boilie, no matter what flavour or how long they have been eating them, just as monkeys eat bananas, cows eat Grass etc etc. And all will eat poison not knowing they are.

 

[laguna]

Particle preparations: http://www.baitbunker.co.uk/Particle-prep-times.pdf

 

[Titus]

The late Fred Crouch put me onto it, he used un cooked hemp.

I knew Fred and had that discussion with him on several occasions, he was of the opinion that the seed simply passed through the fish without any nutritional benefits. Without doing extensive before and after lab tests on both the seed and fish fed exclusively on hemp seeds I don't think we can make that assumption but it is an interesting proposition.

Birds, which feed almost exclusively on seeds, have a crop where they grind the seeds before they enter the rest of the digestive system. They eat grit to help grind the seeds in the crop but fish don't have that organ. I have however caught plenty of trout from Welsh streams which when they have been prepared for the pan have had grit and gravel in their gut, usually 1 or 2mm but sometimes up to 10mm, it was something which always puzzled my cousins and myself and I still wonder about it sometimes, not only about why they would ingest it but also how they got rid of it.

 

[greenie62]

..... I have however caught plenty of trout from Welsh streams which when they have been prepared for the pan have had grit and gravel in their gut, usually 1 or 2mm but sometimes up to 10mm,.......

Same here - I've always assumed it was accidently ingested when grubbing gravel beds for bugs, worms, caddis lavae, etc.

 

[mick b]

This thread is getting really interesting....

I have removed quite large peices of stone from the stomachs of Bass (Dicentrarchus labrax) while gutting them (usually during the spring and summer when the fish are feeding on crabs) the largest being around 15x8mm from a 2kg fish. I have always surmised that the fish had taken in these stones to aid digestion and would eject them through their mouth when no longer required.

A Barbel angler told me recently that he had had Barbel on his unhooking mat which had passed out from their anal vent undigested Crayfish legs, he said Barbel couldn't digest Crayfish because their stomachs were not 'designed' to digest Crayfish shell. The same angler also said he had the the same thing happen with hemp seed.

I have gutted everything from a Marlin downwards and I speak from experience when I say appropriate hand and arm protection must be used when handling the contents of a fishes stomach, with it well capable of digesting bones and flesh, with this in-mind and given that Carp will sometimes eat small fish I suggest the stomach of a Carp is no different to that of any other fish.

Previously I suggested acorns as a perfectly natural bait for Carp.
I offered the opinion that if acorns are used to fatten the Iberian Black Pig (Sus scrofa domesticus) then they would be an ideal natural substitute for the commercial HNV baits. I have found no evidence to suggest acorns would be unsuitable as a bait for Carp.

It has been suggested that the Carp we have today are a product of mans engineering.
My research to date has produced little evidence to support this statement.
I have found evidence that suggests faster growing strains of Carp were being utilised by the Chinese around 5,000 years ago which certainly predates the fish farmed by the monastery stew ponds.

Also extensive evidence supports the supplementary feeding of Carp in stew ponds in Medieval England supported with claims of increased weight gain.
Supplementary feed consisted of vegetable matter, animal manure and 'grains', and appears to have been introduced in its natural state and allowed to rot in the margins of the ponds, the fish eating the material as it degraded (perhaps softened ? ) and the remaining stalks being removed and used as compost.
Interestingly it wasn't the landed gentry who initially embarked on supplementary feeding of stew ponds but the commoners who rented the unused stew ponds from them and realised the increased profitability of aquicclture over agriculture.

Added 16.00 - 19/10/2014
The use of the term stomach in the above text is a term I have used to represent the digestive tract between the fishes mouth and its **** and is, in no way meant to be misleading.

A modern slant on supplementary feeding of Carp;
Rearing carp: Dinner's in the pond - Features - Food + Drink - The Independent

.....
Sadly I have yet to find a single reference to "fat birds eating all the pies"
.....

More to follow.....

.