A spate river

[binka]

Purely out of interest I've just compared the charts for Sam's earlier link to the Swale (spate river) against my local non-spate river over the same period and it's a good indication of the volatility of spate rivers when you look at the pattern of rise...

 

[no-one in particular]

I still don't get people "don't understand the nature of a flood river". Its liable to flood quickly, there's not a lot to mis-understand. . .
I do see how some people might not understand "what would be classed as a spate river or not". Just to be picky, maybe that would have been a better question. I probably fall into that category.
Those that are liable to quick sudden flooding as to those that will flood but, take more time to flood. I guess its down to the length of river, the height of the ground it flows from etc.
So, strictly speaking the longer slower southern rivers would not be classed as spate rivers and the shorter more mountainous rivers and streams would be.

The dictionary definition is " chiefly British - A sudden flood in a river."
So, the clue is in the word sudden. I am corrected on that one.
So I would be wrong in classing some rivers as spate rivers as they don't suddenly flood.

 

[sam vimes]

I still don't get people "don't understand the nature of a flood river". Its liable to flood quickly, there's not a lot to mis-understand. . .
I do see how some people might not understand "what would be classed as a spate river or not". Just to be picky, maybe that would have been a better question. I probably fall into that category.

The thread was started as, from the chatter I see on various forums, I don't believe that many of those unfamiliar with a spate river have any real concept of what that entails. I'm certainly not just talking about any old common or garden flood. Despite pretty much all of it being in the thread already, I'm not entirely convinced that you've really got it yet. You seem to have fixated on the word "flood", which is only a part of it. A spate river doesn't even need to have any extra water in it to be drastically different to the rivers in the south/east of England. They are drastically different whether they are in spate (flood) or not. Go back to either of the original videos and then try and convince me that there's anything comparable, flooded or not, within one hundred miles of your area.

 

[cg74]

Chris, I think it's hard to appreciate the speed and force that a true spate river has until it has been witnessed first hand.
This is amplified by the fact that many southern rivers do flood in a very short space of time, this is especially noticeable on clay rivers, such as the Wey and Cherwell and in both cases it's the fact they can get vast quantities urban runoff that makes them 'spate' like. But because they aren't naturally spate rivers, they lack the deep river channel, 5-6ft up and they're all over the fields.

The profile (shape) of southern river valleys are completely different. Take my local brook, the Cherwell, the flood plain between Banbury to Oxford varies from 500m to 1500m wide, with the river at normal width being 6-20m.
Whereas the true spate rivers I've fished a fair bit in the past, such as the Wye, Severn, Eden (plus tribs) and Teme all have much smaller flood plains despite being bigger rivers.

 

[no-one in particular]

The thread was started as, from the chatter I see on various forums, I don't believe that many of those unfamiliar with a spate river have any real concept of what that entails. I'm certainly not just talking about any old common or garden flood. Despite pretty much all of it being in the thread already, I'm not entirely convinced that you've really got it yet. You seem to have fixated on the word "flood", which is only a part of it. A spate river doesn't even need to have any extra water in it to be drastically different to the rivers in the south/east of England. They are drastically different whether they are in spate (flood) or not. Go back to either of the original videos and then try and convince me that there's anything comparable, flooded or not, within one hundred miles of your area.

Not like in the first video, Richmond falls as I understand this rises in the Yorkshire Dales, am I correct. We don't generally have country like that in the south as you know.. Like I said, I understand there are more mountainous/hilly district in the north which produce different levels of floods or spate. The second video which I believe is the same river; I have seen similar on occasions..
I think what your trying to say, is in the south we do not see rivers like the ones in the videos and therefore, unless you have seen them it is impossible to understand what a true spate river is. Which I am sure is true for some people but, not that many I would have thought..
However, I have seen similar strength of floods on one or two southern rivers. They tend to be the smaller and shorter rivers. the Brede for example in the South east. I would class this as a spate river. It can rise dramatically and become a torrent in a short space of time minus the rocky outcrops. Some rivers are subject to dramatic sudden flooding in the South especially when they form on the higher ground and have a short water course to the sea.
Its just a matter of degree.
Believe me, I understand what a spate river is, The only difference with all the excellent posts and information, I would alter my view on what I would class as a spate river. Where the line is drawn, when is a river a spate river and when is it not a spate river. Too much for me to contemplate. You can discuss that with someone else. For me its still just any river liable to dramatic sudden flooding. After all, thats basically what the word means.
I have enjoyed the thread though, very informative and thanks for it and all those who taken the time to publish their notes and graphs..

 

[maverick 7]

A very interesting thread Sam.....I have to admit I am not fully conversant with the term of "Spate River" either....despite fishing one for donkeys years. Yes, I understand the quick flooding of a spate river and then the long wait for all the "brown stuff" to clear out of it (from the peat on the hills I believe...but I stand corrected on that).

I wasn't aware the Severn and the Wye was spate rivers either....I have stood on that area at Richmond and watched the river ...but never in flood like that....that must be quite spectacular......must remember to do it sometime.

Love the new river levels site I discovered on this thread...I used the EA one whenever I needed that information....but I will use that one from now on.

Even after reading the whole thread ...I am still not 100% sure of what a spate river is.....although I think I have a good idea.....so thanks to evryone involved for educating me.

Maverick