Checks and Balances: Apex Predators and the Balance of Nature

[FishingMagic]

This is a dedicated thread for discussing article: Checks and Balances: Apex Predators and the Balance of Nature

[matthew barter]

Geoff a well written and well thought out piece. I agree with some but disagree with most. However, I think it is good that you can express your views without being rude or personal. It is good to hear what others have to say even if they don't share your view, thanks for giving me something to think about.

[tonybalony]

Geoff, I agree it is well written and very persuasive. I think I see a flaw in the apex predator comparison though. I take it you are referring to humans as the apex predator that wiped out the North Sea stocks. I don't see how you can compare this with otter predation. Otters are not using huge nets to remove everything from the river are they? Surely they are territorial creatures who won't allow others to occupy their territory. As such they limit their own numbers to an extent so it seems unlikely they will empty a river or lake. It is heartbreaking to us anglers to see specimen fish mauled and half eaten however if we continue to fatten up our carp and barbel on artificial high protein feed it is not surprising they cannot escape a proficient hunter and swimmer like the otter. Maybe these fish are easier to catch because they are overweight! That said you may still have an argument about the need for controls but I would think we have a way to go before we can justify anything drastic.

[tigger]

Mmmm....interesting Goeff. I disagree with most of it to be honest though.

Now if you'd written about a truly invasive creature that is causing untold death and destruction to our natural wildlife from insects to amphibians to mammals to birds etc etc introduced by man...CATS then I would be all for a instant cull.

Infact i'll be out for a walk with the dogs tomorrow, they've been culling cats for many years, when I'm not looking of course .

[jasonbean1]

Nice article, written in an honest personal point of veiw way. At the moment I sit in the middle on the otter debate and tend to sway one way or the other depending on what i've recently read or seen on the river bank. I am coming to the opinion now that there is every chance that otters will eventually do our rivers good, it would take too long to explain but after watching what effect the otters are having locally on rivers and canals in oxford I am starting to be less worried by there presence.

I'm off to see a presentation by the EA's Graham Scholey tonight on otter/fish interaction, he's the chap heading the uk otter bap....will be interesting and I would imagine it will re-inforce my own gut feeling that otters are not the threat we think they are and we should be looking closer to home if we want to lay blame on who's doing the damage to our fisheries.

[MarkTheSpark]

I think, during the writing of this piece, you have come to the conclusion that, as man has bolloxed up the environment, additional 'management' is needed to un-bollox it.

Actually, to allow the balance to return, all we have to do is remove the pollution, over-fishing, ill-conceived water engineering and all the other factors which have damaged it in the first place.

People don't hop aboard deathtrap Russian helicopters to visit the Kola Peninsula for salmon because they want to see a managed fishery; the fishery is one of few not suffering man-made ills because the rivers there are not surrounded by industry and urban development, and completely unmanaged.

The changes man has inflicted have not taken place at the glacial speed of evolution, they have happened several thousand times faster, outstripping any ability of ecology to evolve, and altering the ecology substantially. Darwinian change takes millions of years, not hundreds. These has nothing to do with evolution, and evolution cannot resolve the problems.

Your argument is like saying the best way to deal with lung cancer is more chemotherapy. I would argue that it would be better to make it illegal to smoke.

[the blanker]

Originally Posted by MarkTheSpark

I think, during the writing of this piece, you have come to the conclusion that, as man has bolloxed up the environment, additional 'management' is needed to un-bollox it.

Actually, to allow the balance to return, all we have to do is remove the pollution, over-fishing, ill-conceived water engineering and all the other factors which have damaged it in the first place.

People don't hop aboard deathtrap Russian helicopters to visit the Kola Peninsula for salmon because they want to see a managed fishery; the fishery is one of few not suffering man-made ills because the rivers there are not surrounded by industry and urban development, and completely unmanaged.

The changes man has inflicted have not taken place at the glacial speed of evolution, they have happened several thousand times faster, outstripping any ability of ecology to evolve, and altering the ecology substantially. Darwinian change takes millions of years, not hundreds. These has nothing to do with evolution, and evolution cannot resolve the problems.

Your argument is like saying the best way to deal with lung cancer is more chemotherapy. I would argue that it would be better to make it illegal to smoke.

mark i agree that all the problems inflicted on rivers by man (mostly in pursuit of profit) should be removed from the argument first (couldnt think of another way of putting it ) but i dont think that it will happen in my lifetime my problem with otters is not with the animal itself but the fact that they have been introduced into an already overstressed environment adding to the pressures that our fish stocks are already under,the otter itself cannot be blamed for doing what comes naturaly to enable it to survive,but the introducers of otters can be blamed as i belive it has been done with very little thought about fish stocks but theres no change there is there, most things seem to come above that.

[MarkTheSpark]

Originally Posted by the blanker

mark i agree that all the problems inflicted on rivers by man (mostly in pursuit of profit) should be removed from the argument first (couldnt think of another way of putting it ) but i dont think that it will happen in my lifetime my problem with otters is not with the animal itself but the fact that they have been introduced into an already overstressed environment adding to the pressures that our fish stocks are already under,the otter itself cannot be blamed for doing what comes naturaly to enable it to survive,but the introducers of otters can be blamed as i belive it has been done with very little thought about fish stocks but theres no change there is there, most things seem to come above that.

Let's first eliminate one misconception; otters have not been introduced they have been re-introduced; i.e. they belong here. And the recent spread of otters has categorically NOT been because of the limited re-introduction. The spread is a mark of their breeding success.

They are spreading because the ecology can support the spread. There's plenty to eat and places to breed. In a way, we should be happy about this because it proves there's more that's right about the water environment than is wrong.

Otters don't need 'management'. Fisheries need management. And until fishery managers concentrate their efforts on managing fish stocks by providing better recruitment through river management, put their full weight behind efforts to reduce pollution and engage in real, scientific fishery management, they will always see the solution down the barrel of a 12 bore...

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------

Originally Posted by tigger

...CATS then I would be all for a instant cull.

Infact i'll be out for a walk with the dogs tomorrow, they've been culling cats for many years, when I'm not looking of course .

I hope you're joking, tigger. If you're not, you might spare a thought for the little girl or old lady who owns the cat, staying awake nights and days wondering where it has gone.

Personally, I'm not a great fan of dogs. Maybe I'll get out me crossbow and cull a few. That OK with you?

[the blanker]

Originally Posted by MarkTheSpark

Let's first eliminate one misconception; otters have not been introduced they have been re-introduced; i.e. they belong here. And the recent spread of otters has categorically NOT been because of the limited re-introduction. The spread is a mark of their breeding success.

They are spreading because the ecology can support the spread. There's plenty to eat and places to breed. In a way, we should be happy about this because it proves there's more that's right about the water environment than is wrong.

Otters don't need 'management'. Fisheries need management. And until fishery managers concentrate their efforts on managing fish stocks by providing better recruitment through river management, put their full weight behind efforts to reduce pollution and engage in real, scientific fishery management, they will always see the solution down the barrel of a 12 bore...

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------



I hope you're joking, tigger. If you're not, you might spare a thought for the little girl or old lady who owns the cat, staying awake nights and days wondering where it has gone.

Personally, I'm not a great fan of dogs. Maybe I'll get out me crossbow and cull a few. That OK with you?

cats should not get lost .they shouldnt be out crapping and spraying on other peoples gardens and stuff left in them such as kids toys and all dog owners should pick up their dogs mess, my bull terrier wont do it anywhere other than where it has been trained to do it, i hate cats.

my post said nothing about reintroduction mark.

[MarkTheSpark]

Originally Posted by the blanker

cats should not get lost .they shouldnt be out crapping and spraying on other peoples gardens and stuff left in them such as kids toys and all dog owners should pick up their dogs mess, my bull terrier wont do it anywhere other than where it has been trained to do it, i hate cats.

my post said nothing about reintroduction mark.

Cats should not get lost? I'll tell mine that. I'll mention the crapping and spraying thing, too. I bet it never occurred to her. I'll also tell her to steer clear of dog owners who see the local park as a place to use their dogs for hunting other people's pets.

And yes, your post said nothing about reintroduction. Which was the point of my reply.