Fracking - Do you Give a Fruck?

[FishingMagic]

This is a dedicated thread for discussing article: Fracking - Do you Give a Fruck?

 

[Dave Smith]

The Gasland footage showing flames out of water taps has been shown and proved to false ;ie it was methane gas coming out of taps in an area well know for it and has been occurring for a century or more with the ground water, nothing to do with fracking. Even the producer of Gasland has admitted this!
If fracking is such a danger why has Germany been fracking since the early 60's? and they have the highest enviromental regulations in the world! and no reported pollution incidents?

Perhaps if you as a MP who voted through the ludicrous Climate Change Act
HAD NOT!!.. we would not be looking for shale gas now and would still be able and permitted to use natural gas, coal, instead of being shackled to a ACT that has and will kill 10's of thousand of elderly people in the coming years until the act is repealed
As for the RSPB.. LOL the same organisation that clams to protect birds!! except when the birds/bats fly into wind turbines placed on RSPB owned land another NGO sucking on the subsidies gravy trainmg:
as for WWF see above.
17years + with no statistically significant global warming.

I know you are trying to look after angling Martin but do try and do a bit of research before you write something like this again!! and perhaps you should tell the readers of this piece if you are still affiliated with GREENPEACE that biggest sucker of taxpayer and government subsidies there is!!and clearly against fracking.

 

[richiekelly]

Perhaps Germany have better environmental controls in place than we would have in this country?

 

[Peter Jacobs]

I am very surprised to read this highly biased (and inaccurate) report from the Angling Trust.

I would have thought that prior to issuing this sort of diatribe that they would have at least attempted to find a balanced view by direct consultation with members of the oil and gas industry. Or at least people who know what they are talking about from both sides.

I am truly wondering if my annual subscription and donation to the Angling Trust is really worth while if this is the sum total of their "research" into such an important topic.

Highly disappointed.

 

[Paul Boote]

Yup, but then we are talking "All things to all men and none of them", post-politics Ben Dover now, aren't we?

No cheque, please, as I informed you chaps a long time ago, to very mixed acclaim.

We'll see the ex-Sporting Agent newbie exhorting us all to fish on the Kola in Russia at ten grand a week next.

Just go fishing, at home, for yourself, preferably for free - this really worries them.

 

[The bad one]

Peter whilst the lead in might be a bit circumspect, the concluding concerns re the use of water resources and impacts of spills and or contamination are not.


Corporate Social and Environmental responsibility eh!
Ohio Man Pleads Guilty to Dumping Toxic Fracking Wastewater Into River – EcoWatch: Cutting Edge Environmental News Service

I really don’t understand any river angler not sharing those concerns.

And I’ll repeat again what I said in the last thread on this issue when those fracking in the UK (Cuadrilla) are calling for tighter regulations from the UK Government on what they do, I have serious concerns about what regulations we do have to cover this industry.

---------- Post added at 00:23 ---------- Previous post was at 00:15 ----------

The Gasland footage showing flames out of water taps has been shown and proved to false ;ie it was methane gas coming out of taps in an area well know for it and has been occurring for a century or more with the ground water, nothing to do with fracking. Even the producer of Gasland has admitted this!
If fracking is such a danger why has Germany been fracking since the early 60's? and they have the highest enviromental regulations in the world! and no reported pollution incidents?

Perhaps if you as a MP who voted through the ludicrous Climate Change Act
HAD NOT!!.. we would not be looking for shale gas now and would still be able and permitted to use natural gas, coal, instead of being shackled to a ACT that has and will kill 10's of thousand of elderly people in the coming years until the act is repealed
As for the RSPB.. LOL the same organisation that clams to protect birds!! except when the birds/bats fly into wind turbines placed on RSPB owned land another NGO sucking on the subsidies gravy trainmg:
as for WWF see above.
17years + with no statistically significant global warming.

I know you are trying to look after angling Martin but do try and do a bit of research before you write something like this again!! and perhaps you should tell the readers of this piece if you are still affiliated with GREENPEACE that biggest sucker of taxpayer and government subsidies there is!!and clearly against fracking.

Clearly a doubter mg: I think you'll be chocking on those words come the end of the month and the new IPCC report. No doubt you'll be claim it's a pinco lefty green conspiracy inspired report.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Peter whilst the lead in might be a bit circumspect, the concluding concerns re the use of water resources and impacts of spills and or contamination are not.

I really don’t understand any river angler not sharing those concerns.

To describe Mr Salter's piece as being a bit circumspect is akin to saying that Hitler might have had a hand in killing a few people during WW2!

He has jumped onto a somewhat rickety bandwagon and is associating unfounded accusations against Hydraulic Fracturing with other issues that, on their own, need no other support.

I am a dyed-in-the-hole river angler and have been for over 50 years, so yes, I am obviously deeply concerned with the health of our river systems.

I just simply cannot sit by without commenting on such a poor assessment that appears to be based on bias and ill conceived inuendo that comes from the association that until now I have fully supported.

As to the title of the piece, "Do you give a Frack?" I would say most certainly I do, I give a frack but about ballanced reports without the experienced pociticians footprint all over them!

To the Angling Trust I would say, this: I reckon that piece deserves about 2/10 with an end of term report card that should read . . . . . . . . . . .


MUST DO BETTER

 

[Merv Harrison]

Also reports from America relating to problems with livestock due to fracking.

"Death and deformity among American livestock is so alarming that Britain should halt the practice while further research is conducted"....Professor Robert Oswald, co-author of the first study into the link between hydraulic fracturing and sickness in farm animals.

Campaigners claim an array of chemicals, including carcinogens, are deployed during fracking.

 

[mick b]

I wish these headline writers would use correct English and not rely on 'Sun' headlines!
If the Angling Trust and anglers in general are to be taken seriously the use of appropriate language would greatly assist.

As for Fracking, I still haven't heard anyone state clearly where the water that the companies propose to pump into the ground is to come from?

The silence is deafening

 

[Paul Boote]

There will be troubles ahead....

The Germans do EVERYTHING - technical stuff, at least - a lot better and cleaner than we do; we (or rather our market- and donation-minded politicians who will give the companies the nod) will make a hash of fracking, our innate ability to cock things up - in this case, massive water abstraction and resulting effluents with nowhere to go, irresponsible beyond-the-law corporations etc - will ensure that large areas of Britain and a lot of Brits will rue the day they allowed people to go deep for the last fossil fuels that we're fatally addicted to.

Small island, big negative consequences, somewhere down the line, I reckon.

 

[geoffmaynard]

PJ - dignified outrage from Mr Grumpy of Hampshire aside... (there's too much disinformation online for the layman to asess if fracking is safe or not) so just answer this one for me: Where will the water come from? This is a valid concern and the ATr is right to ask the question when abstraction is such a major problem, even if the querstion was not asked in terms you approve of.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Also reports from America relating to problems with livestock due to fracking.

This was taken from his joint report:

"We have conducted in-depth interviews with over 30 animal owners concerning their health as well as the health of their animals from five years prior to drilling to the time of the interview"

If that was the basis and the core sampling of this "study" then I think the results need to be judged on this sampling accordingly.

The same paper concludes thus: "Further studies are needed to determine the prevalence of these problems; nevertheless, we have identified several issues that are of concern:"

. . . and that is long before we even start to discuss the relative differences in the underlying geology between these 2 Countries . . . . . .


Geoff, ignoring the puerile remarks, but to answer your question: the EA are still consulting (unlike the Angling Trust) on the question of water supply, you can find the consultation documentation on their website.

Notwithstanding, the EA have already disclosed:

"Under the current regulations, a shale gas operator wishing to take a lot of water directly from a river, lake or groundwater will have to apply to the EA for a licence.
A licence will only be granted if the water can be taken in a way that "doesn't harm the environment or other users", the EA says.
Otherwise, no dice. Alternatively, a gas company could make a deal where a water company sells it the water."


The short anwser is that water can come from gound water sources by abstraction, and before anyone makes the obvious comments, kindly check how much water the average golf course uses* in direct comparison, (and on a daily basis in the summer) however, unlike golf course and other irrigation uses the water employed in the fracking process can be recovered (not all I will grant) and treated for further re-use.

I am surprised that the Angling Trust, or the author, didn't ask these questions directly to the EA, but then to emphasis their biased opinion it was probably much easier to jump on that rickety old bandwagon, I would guess.

Lastly Geoff, and for the record, I live in Wiltshire, and far from being "Grumpy" I would prefer to describe myself as being . . . . . . informed.


Note: A golf course uses an average of 300,000 gallons of water per week during the summer months.

 

[Dave Smith]

Peter whilst the lead in might be a bit circumspect, the concluding concerns re the use of water resources and impacts of spills and or contamination are not.


Corporate Social and Environmental responsibility eh!
Ohio Man Pleads Guilty to Dumping Toxic Fracking Wastewater Into River – EcoWatch: Cutting Edge Environmental News Service

I really don’t understand any river angler not sharing those concerns.

And I’ll repeat again what I said in the last thread on this issue when those fracking in the UK (Cuadrilla) are calling for tighter regulations from the UK Government on what they do, I have serious concerns about what regulations we do have to cover this industry.

---------- Post added at 00:23 ---------- Previous post was at 00:15 ----------



Clearly a doubter mg: I think you'll be chocking on those words come the end of the month and the new IPCC report. No doubt you'll be claim it's a pinco lefty green conspiracy inspired report.

Yes i do doubt the hysteria over AGW :wh the facts do not back it up

As for choking on my words..Hmm we'll see, parts of that IPCC report have already been leaked and surprise surprise the IPCC states that climate sensititivity is lower that the model and scientist's had predicted.lol
all it took was 17+years with no warming, a 60% rise in arctic ice extent and record Antarctic sea ice

All we now need is for our government to follow the newly elected Australian government in disbanding the the Eco fascist brigade in this country so our economy can grow and create jobs.

As for pinko left greens!!! i'll leave the name calling to you alarmists/warminista's..its what you do best

 

[bennygesserit]

Yes i do doubt the hysteria over AGW :wh the facts do not back it up

As for choking on my words..Hmm we'll see, parts of that IPCC report have already been leaked and surprise surprise the IPCC states that climate sensititivity is lower that the model and scientist's had predicted.lol
all it took was 17+years with no warming, a 60% rise in arctic ice extent and record Antarctic sea ice

All we now need is for our government to follow the newly elected Australian government in disbanding the the Eco fascist brigade in this country so our economy can grow and create jobs.

As for pinko left greens!!! i'll leave the name calling to you alarmists/warminista's..its what you do best

To be honest its difficult to take a post seriously , on a serious subject , that is littered with emoticons and opinion.

---------- Post added at 13:33 ---------- Previous post was at 13:29 ----------

This was taken from his joint report:

"We have conducted in-depth interviews with over 30 animal owners concerning their health as well as the health of their animals from five years prior to drilling to the time of the interview"

If that was the basis and the core sampling of this "study" then I think the results need to be judged on this sampling accordingly.

The same paper concludes thus: "Further studies are needed to determine the prevalence of these problems; nevertheless, we have identified several issues that are of concern:"

. . . and that is long before we even start to discuss the relative differences in the underlying geology between these 2 Countries . . . . . .


Geoff, ignoring the puerile remarks, but to answer your question: the EA are still consulting (unlike the Angling Trust) on the question of water supply, you can find the consultation documentation on their website.

Notwithstanding, the EA have already disclosed:

"Under the current regulations, a shale gas operator wishing to take a lot of water directly from a river, lake or groundwater will have to apply to the EA for a licence.
A licence will only be granted if the water can be taken in a way that "doesn't harm the environment or other users", the EA says.
Otherwise, no dice. Alternatively, a gas company could make a deal where a water company sells it the water."


The short anwser is that water can come from gound water sources by abstraction, and before anyone makes the obvious comments, kindly check how much water the average golf course uses* in direct comparison, (and on a daily basis in the summer) however, unlike gold course and other irrigation uses the water employed in the fracking process can be recovered (not all I will grant) and treated for further re-use.

I am surprised that the Angling Trust, or the author, didn't ask these questions directly to the EA, but then to emphasis their biased opinion it was probably much easier to jump on that rickety old bandwagon, I would guess.

Lastly Geoff, and for the record, I live in Wiltshire, and far from being "Grumpy" I would prefer to describe myself as being . . . . . . informed.


Note: A golf course uses an average of 300,000 gallons of water per day during the summer months.

An average of 300,000 gallons a day ? Peter where did you get those figures from ?

So presumably the golf course in an abstraction issue though rather than contamination ?


Do you have similar figures for some of these proposed fracking processes ?

 

[chub_on_the_block]

To be honest its difficult to take a post seriously , on a serious subject , that is littered with emoticons and opinion.

Yes i never fancied the Daily Express much either. Speaking as a pinko lefty green.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

So presumably the golf course in an abstraction issue though rather than contamination ?

Do you have similar figures for some of these proposed fracking processes ?

The golf course example is primarily an abstraction issue, although given the amount of fertilisers and weedkillers poured onto the average golf course per annum then it could also be considerd as a potential contamination issue as well. The 300k per day should have been 300k per week, as in: . . . . . . ."Any deficit in rainfall must be supplemented with irrigation. A typical golf course requires 100,000 to 1,000,000 gallons (378.5 m3 to 3,785 m3) of water per week in summer to maintain healthy vegetation."

The amount of water required in hydraulic fracturing can be anything from 200,000 gallons up to around 4 million gallons depending on geology, the tightness of the formations and the location.

As noted previously though, it is possible to recover, clean and re-use the majority of the water from the fracturing process.

 

[bennygesserit]

Peter I don't want to go round in circles with you here are the 1st two sites that came up in my google-a-tron

Carbon Briefing: how much of our water will fracking use? | Carbon Brief

the first one suprisingly balanced but both conflicting , even within their own web pages

MillicentMedia.com | Shale gas fracking: Water lessons from the US to Europe

what I don't want to do is simply summarise googled pages back to you , I'd love to , also , give you sets of evidence backed up by quotable and demonstrable scientific rescearch - I can't do that either.

I would say that recycled fracking water apparantley becomes more and more intensely contaimnated with use.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

what I don't want to do is simply summarise googled pages back to you , I'd love to , also , give you sets of evidence backed up by quotable and demonstrable scientific rescearch - I can't do that either.

Benny, I corrected my error above while you were posting this . . . . .

I would say that recycled fracking water apparantley becomes more and more intensely contaimnated with use.

Not really, a pecenatge is left in situ, but the vast majority of the water is recovered and put through cleansing pocesses in order to be re-mixed and re-used.

I hope this clarifies.

Regardless, I still believe that the article issued on behalf of the Angling Trust is highly biased, and based on supposition merely aimed at people's inherent fears of anything that is remotely controversial.

I had expected something far better from our National Angling Body.

 

[Dave Smith]

To be honest its difficult to take a post seriously , on a serious subject , that is littered with emoticons and opinion.

Straw man reply, Basically you've no real,arguement then,and is this not a place where one can not give an opinion??? i thought thats what forums where for..or do you just like to hear the "consensus "opinion!!!

Pulling up quotes from Carbon Briefing is like pulling up Hitlers quotes on his good treatment of the Jews..rather one sided!

Yet another vampiric taxpayer sucking entity who's only purpose is leach of the public purse.

 

[The bad one]

To be honest its difficult to take a post seriously , on a serious subject , that is littered with emoticons and opinion.

Straw man reply, Basically you've no real,arguement then,and is this not a place where one can not give an opinion??? i thought thats what forums where for..or do you just like to hear the "consensus "opinion!!!

Pulling up quotes from Carbon Briefing is like pulling up Hitlers quotes on his good treatment of the Jews..rather one sided!

Yet another vampiric taxpayer sucking entity who's only purpose is leach of the public purse.

Ooh err tax, vampires, sucking on the public purse best not go there eh! Might just have to look at Google, Amazon, Big oil et al.

Correct the drafts of the IPCC report have been leaked, strange interpretation of what they actually say form you, assuming you’ve “read” them and not relied on the press wing slant on them.

Peter and the water being sold to the Fracking Cos by WCs would come from where?
Last time I checked the WCs don’t have a magical supply hidden away with fairies, it comes from the supply system in the areas fracking would take place. Some of those areas are already suffering water stress now!

Whilst some water recovery and cleaning is possible within the industry, the cleaning leaves a very concentrated sludge with other pollutants which weren’t there when they were put down the hole, heavy metals flushed out due to very high pressure, naturally occurring radioactive materials from the drilled rock and shales. All collected in the concentrated sludge pools for disposal.
There is no reference I can find by this industry as to how and where this sludge will be disposed of.
And as I’ve pointed out, the unscrupulous driven by profit do dispose of it in ways that are totally unacceptable and illegal.