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This is a dedicated thread for discussing article: Severn Seal Set to Stay
Severn Seal Set to Stay
- Thread starter FishingMagic
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B
binka
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Just how stupid are Natural England?
Good old Keith eh...
Good old Keith eh...
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They should have called out the local Bobby, PC Gonne-Madde, as he seems to be the one the Trust and everybody "of a certain age" seems to frothing and foaming about now....
S-Kippy
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Should have quietly shot the damned thing a year ago. I doubt there'd have been any shortage of people willing to do it.
cg74
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Does anyone know if the ATr are going to lodge an official complaint against Natural England for their gross incompetence?
As to me it looks a pretty black and white case, with NE supplying the rope to hang themselves with.....
"He admitted that he had no expertise in fisheries and that he was a terrestrial ecologist. I told him that the Environment Agency had conceded that the animal was having a local impact on the fishery and that they supported our application, and I put him in touch with my contacts there."
As to me it looks a pretty black and white case, with NE supplying the rope to hang themselves with.....
"He admitted that he had no expertise in fisheries and that he was a terrestrial ecologist. I told him that the Environment Agency had conceded that the animal was having a local impact on the fishery and that they supported our application, and I put him in touch with my contacts there."
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It is now clear, clearly, that ANYBODY who works for or is in the least bit involved with ANY organization - RSPCA, RSPB, Natural England, the E.A., the BBC, the NHS, your Local Authority (including roadsweepers) and the Goverment for that matter - whose life doesn't revolve around fish and who is not totally au fait with their international and national importance, indeed who has a life outside of water and stupid smelly scaled things, must be publicly exposed, derided, fired and preferably shot. Of vital importance this, as we pay our £30 or £80 on a licence and countless £s on ego-boosting tackle and they do not. Nuff said, as I might start ranting about "my rights" (and nobody would want that).
It has nothing whatsoever to do with a life revolving around fish Paul but everything to do with having people in positions of decision-making authority who have an iota of knowledge on the subject of which they are supposed to make a judgement.
This person at Natural England is clearly an demonstratively incapable of doing his job as he is wholly inexperienced and untrained in the subject.
In the modern idiom one would refer to him as a "jobsworth" I suppose?
If he was not sufficiently experienced in the subject then he should have sought the views of those who are, and from both sides of the story, (Martin Salter please take note) and thus armed then make the right decision.
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The report states that the Seal would be rescued!
The animal doesn't need rescuing, its life is not in danger and it is not injured.
The animal has found its way there twice if the reports are correct and maybe even a few more nocturnal visits unrecorded, so if its relocated back to the sea it will almost certainly return, and sooner rather than later.
The seal population in the Solent all have GPS tracking collars fitted and one individual makes visits to the Nab Tower, this animal travels in a dead straight line from the coast straight to the Nab, it doesn't miss it or deviate, its like a guided missile homing straight to its target.
If a seal can do that, the Severn seal will return easily of that there is no doubt!
Biology will eventually lure it away, the need to find a mate and breed, you just hope it doesn't return with all its family and friends
mg:
Perhaps the AT could pay for a GPS collar for this seal, that way following its 'relocation' it could be tracked and if found to be returning could be dissuaded from doing so.
As for NE, EA, or whatever issuing licences, it can be done promptly IF the application is made by professionals trained in handling protected species.
Speaking from first hand experience.
.
The animal doesn't need rescuing, its life is not in danger and it is not injured.
The animal has found its way there twice if the reports are correct and maybe even a few more nocturnal visits unrecorded, so if its relocated back to the sea it will almost certainly return, and sooner rather than later.
The seal population in the Solent all have GPS tracking collars fitted and one individual makes visits to the Nab Tower, this animal travels in a dead straight line from the coast straight to the Nab, it doesn't miss it or deviate, its like a guided missile homing straight to its target.
If a seal can do that, the Severn seal will return easily of that there is no doubt!
Biology will eventually lure it away, the need to find a mate and breed, you just hope it doesn't return with all its family and friends
mg:Perhaps the AT could pay for a GPS collar for this seal, that way following its 'relocation' it could be tracked and if found to be returning could be dissuaded from doing so.
As for NE, EA, or whatever issuing licences, it can be done promptly IF the application is made by professionals trained in handling protected species.
Speaking from first hand experience.
.
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My word, we literal-minded Serious Soul Omiscient Piscators get so displeased when people don't immediately jump and dance to our tune, and do exactly what I saying in a lighthearted vein yesterday evening - find the culprits, name, shame and lash out at both them and their employers.
We Anglers know how to make enemies everywhere, know how to get a "Never invite them to a party again ... they don't bring any drink, they drink everybody else's, they insult the hosts and everyone present, then they expect to be treated civilly..."
The more we bang the "We've got the 'ump! Shut up and do as we say." drum, the worse things will become for us.
Less attitude (for whatever discreet, often political, reasons), more playing nicely with our fellow classmates. Might just start getting a little of what we want, then.
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No, wrong again Paul.
You are either totally missing the point or being deliberately obtuse for whatever mischievious reasons.
Notwithstanding, none of us have a problem with losing a single cause when debated with people who understand the problem.
What is so very irksome however is when (by their own admission) they are arguing/deciding over matters that they have absolutely no knowledge. It is tantamount to taking your car to the garage to have work done and discussing said work with the oil rag and not the mechanic.
N'est pas?
cg74
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Paul, it's quite simple really.
Giving the task of dealing with this issue to a man who by his own admission had "no expertise in" is a display of negligence/incompetence and what with us living in a democracy, we have the right to ask for an explanation as to why things were done incorrectly - Which ultimately should lead to lessening chances of a reoccurrence in the future.
If no one complains, it leads to complacency.
Natural England used a square peg to fill a round hole!
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Not just N.E., Colin, but all of us.
For example, anyone who has held a fishing rod by the thick end, as opposed to the thin end, for, say, 30.8 seconds is a fully paid-up war-gaming Angling Expert now.
For example, anyone who has held a fishing rod by the thick end, as opposed to the thin end, for, say, 30.8 seconds is a fully paid-up war-gaming Angling Expert now.
itsfishingnotcatching
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Most on here are amateur anglers Paul, and therefore unpaid. This person is paid to do a job and as such should be expected to have the required degree of knowledge, experience and competence to carry out his duties.
Lord Paul of Sheffield
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I've no doubt that the seal will draw a few non anglers to the banks, eat the fish stock then move on, unless it somehow is "helped" along by a couple of fed up anglers
Gentlemen, please let us get our feet back on the ground.
We are all agreed that the seal could probably have been captured while it was retained in the lock, and that it could have been returned (relocated) somewhere farther away.
The AT did its best to secure the required consents from NE but whatever was said did not satisfy those at NE who make the decisions.
Natural England is an agency that has undergone considerable change over the past ten years, many very experienced field scientists have left the agency and replaced with less experienced (cheaper) personnel.
These new staff are not 'jobsworths' but graduate scientists trying to do a difficult job under very restrictive circumstances, and who are required to 'work to the book' if they do not possess detailed knowledge of a subject in hand.
The issuing of consents for the handling protected species is a minefield of legislation where one mistake can easily lead to charges of professional misconduct, especially with the publicity seeking RSPCA around.
What is now clear is that the AT doesn't have the knowledge or expertise to deal with complex situations such as this, and perhaps we are expecting to much to think otherwise?
.
We are all agreed that the seal could probably have been captured while it was retained in the lock, and that it could have been returned (relocated) somewhere farther away.
The AT did its best to secure the required consents from NE but whatever was said did not satisfy those at NE who make the decisions.
Natural England is an agency that has undergone considerable change over the past ten years, many very experienced field scientists have left the agency and replaced with less experienced (cheaper) personnel.
These new staff are not 'jobsworths' but graduate scientists trying to do a difficult job under very restrictive circumstances, and who are required to 'work to the book' if they do not possess detailed knowledge of a subject in hand.
The issuing of consents for the handling protected species is a minefield of legislation where one mistake can easily lead to charges of professional misconduct, especially with the publicity seeking RSPCA around.
What is now clear is that the AT doesn't have the knowledge or expertise to deal with complex situations such as this, and perhaps we are expecting to much to think otherwise?
.
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I would agree with that Mick, the only problem I see though is that the Seal does not appear on NE's "Protected species List"
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/ProtectedSpeciesLists_tcm6-25123.pdf
I am also not sure in my mind as to the difference between a "jobsworth" and even a degree wielding employee "working to the book" but that is not central to the case in point.
I also don't buy the argument that due to people leaving that an agency can be expected to be released from its designated purpose.
Whatever the ATr said, or how they made their case, somehow seems to be almost irelevant when said case was made to someone in NE who, by his own admission, knew nothing about the situation, the background or apparently anything else to do with the case.
For once I don't think that the Angling Trust are to blame on this one . . . . . . .
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Peter the NE site is out of date.
Ref; UK Seals 'Since 1988 both Grey and Common or Harbour seals have been protected all the year round'.
I am not saying they should be released from their statutory duties, which in this case were correctly followed.
I maintain that if the AT had been more aware that NE are working on reduced staffing levels, realigned structures and understood the difficulty of finding someone with sufficient knowledge to make a decision on such a specialised subject they would have understood the impossibility of achieving a prompt and favourable response.
In all my 20+ years of experience I only once achieved such a decision (from the old English Nature) in under 24 hours and I shudder to think of the string pulling that required.
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Very sound, mick. Are you a Wessex area bailiff? You seem to know about the realities of things now. I used to know your old former colleagues (if you are) at the old Avon & Dorset River Authority, one of them, Doug Newell, a great and well-known flytyer as well as tireless bailiff. The tales he and his fellow bailiffs used to tell me about the difficulty they experienced getting anything done after reporting an issue to the then very patrician aristo head honcho of the outfit, Brayshaw, and his sidekick Grater (men, young as I was, I also knew). Little changes, it's just that these days ideology, State-bashing and rural politics have entered the mix.
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cg74
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Mick, personally I couldn't give a toss what the staffing situation is or isn't at NE, they gave the task to an under qualified can't think for himself jobsworth!
Their error, so they should be brought to account, besides if the 'yes-man' had done a little bit of background research (which he should have) what with him not being suitably qualified!
He'd have found out Grey Seals eat about 11lb of fish per day - 4000lb+ of fish per year, is that really sustainable without implications, I think not!
To hell with being diplomatic; the ATr should make a formal complaint!
Yes, I noticed that. Two main bits of protection spring to mind..
1. Conservation of Seals Act 1970 (which is why a licence is required to kill / take the seal from the Severn between 1st Sept and 31st December).
2. Habitats Directive Annex 2 listed species. Therefore protected by law in sites where the designated features include grey seal - looks like there are only two such sites in England - Humber Estuary and North Northumberland coast.