Otters have a right to be here and the more the merrier! Stuff the elitist barbel anglers, they must all be related to the people that nearly wiped them out in the first place...The elite land owners that would kill anything that they thought were taking their precious game fish!!
Otters have a right to be here and the more the merrier! Stuff the elitist barbel anglers, they must all be related to the people that nearly wiped them out in the first place...The elite land owners that would kill anything that they thought were taking their precious game fish!!
benny samways
Well-known member
You've raised your game there, elite tosh!
richiekelly
Well-known member
What makes you think that riverkeepers wont carry on doing just that ? who is there to see on a large estate? if otters cause catches to drop on expensive salmon beats i doubt if the keeper will allow them to continue to drop. illegal it may be but i would bet its already happening.
sam vimes
Well-known member
Mink may be agressive and destructive but you can't realistically accuse them of being evil. They do what they do by nature. Anthropomophising that into good and evil is wrong.
Get real, of course otters take pike, tench and chub. They'll take whatever they can. Chub predominate on my local river, where otters have been present for as long as I've been visiting. Guess which fish you are most likely to find as a half eaten corpse and a sad pile of scales? Naturally, it's a chub.
Then it comes to a local stillwater, quite close to the river. When we stocked some relatively small tench in the place, what did the supplier say to us? Well, he said "they'll disappear for years, but most of them will find their way inside the local otters and cormorants". Not exactly the quickest things with fins, tench.
The only reason that people witter on about otters taking barbel and carp is that that's what many of the shoutiest anglers around care about. Much as I have little time for the various angling groups, you only have to look the the size of the memberships of the barbel and carp related single species groups compared to those of tench and chub.
Yep, they do have the right to be here. However, I'm damned pleased that my local river has always had a population. It's meant that the impact of new introductions to the area has been minimal. I even saw an otter on Sunday. A bitter sweet moment, because it was less than a mile from my syndicate lake. I did know they were about, we've seen the evidence, just not seen one.
However, I'm sure you know that the rest of that post is complete nonsense.
cg74
Well-known member
You are right otters do have a 'natural' right to be here but crucially they need to be apart of a 'naturally' balanced ecosystem, humans meddling with the balance by increasing their numbers is always going to be counter productive (reintroducing orphaned and/or rehabilitated injured otters), as it'll lead to a shortage of their primary food source; fish. Leading a necessity for them to actually target other species; birds etc
"Stuff the elitist barbel anglers, they must all be related to the people that nearly wiped them out in the first place"
I've seen some stupid statements but that really is idiotic. But I'm not going to get personal, so will stick to matters of fact and not speculative opinions.
What actually caused the otters to decline in the Thames system upstream of Wallingford? Or Great Ouse system upstream of Bedford?
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barbelboi
Well-known member
sam vimes
Well-known member
So I'm lead to believe, I've seen figures of up to 15-20 miles bandied about. I suspect that's why the places that had a population prior to the more recent introductions seem to have suffered less. The pre-existing population was already balanced to the available food source. Those large territories meant that introductions were doomed to failure. They were either killed by the resident otters or forced out to uninahibted areas. This also explains why stillwaters in reasonable proximity to the river and especially those between this river and the next large watercourse (believe to have had no or minimal pre-existing otter population) have been hammered.
cg74
Well-known member
Quite a well presented bait by Mark, I'm thinking... At least it's given us something to discuss and a bit of myth-busting is always good.
The bad one
Well-known member
Two condemnatory and derogatory statements there. So tell us what pearls of wisdom and insight research you've carried out to draw that conclusion?
benny samways
Well-known member
They do, 20 miles at least I have heard. Within this territory there will be a number of females whom the males tolerate so as they can have their way with them as and when they please!
I fish around 10-15 miles of middle Ouse and there seems to be otters along the whole length, whether I see animals moving through their territorial range or they are different animals is hard to fathom.
I have seen both Dog otters and females and the size difference is amazing. Dog otters are big beasts.
EDIT
Why does it say I made this post at 08.59 when it is 15.59? How can I change my clock
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B
binka
Guest
This is because the forum employs sophisticated software that occasionally suspects when someone is posting from work and it automatically re-times postings to what it assumes is an out of office time in case the boss is spying on you.
Or...
Click on User CP top left, on the page that loads scroll down to Settings and Options which is about halfway down the menu on the left and then click on Edit Options below it, on the page that then loads scroll down to Date & Time Options and select GMT Western Europe from the drop down menu
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cg74
Well-known member
I you're going quote me at least have the decency to include all the relevant parts and not just the bits that suit your argument.
The whole post:
(you'll notice I've edited the last line to make more sense)
After talking with one the contributors of this: http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/static/documents/Business/Otters_the_facts.pdf
It was very evident to me that much wasn't known about otters behaviour, to the point where it was pure speculation or was poorly researched old info on a species in major decline.
It's widely accepted when a species is in serious decline, their behaviour alters. I guess it triggers an innate survival response.
Added to me talking to an 'expert' - myself and others that I know and trust have seen first hand many otters displaying behavioural traits that are totally contrary to the perceived norm.
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The bad one
Well-known member
Did I misquote you in anyway in regards to you condemnation and derogatory comment about experts?
No you wrote it and I quoted you verbatim!
Edited the last line since, tut tut. I won't remind you of what you accused me of a short while ago.
The bit not used in the quote I have little quibble with. Broadly true.
Now you say you talked to one of the contributors to the Fact sheet and who is that then? Name please?
Again you said you spoke to an expert, who was that expert? Again name please?
It's pertinent to point out to you here I was part of the team (SACG/SAA Conservation Officer at the time) that first brought the whole issue of otter predation to the EA's attention back in the early 90s, so it's likely I know most of the people involved with that factsheet.
You have also stated this in this post
"It was very evident to me that much wasn't known about otters behaviour, to the point where it was pure speculation or was poorly researched old info on a species in major decline."
So how was it evident to you?
You have read the 100+ papers and several books written since the 1940s to the present day on otter biology and ecology from across the range of the Eurasian otter Lutra lutra?
So far all we can establish is you've read the factsheet and said you've talked to two people and some friends you know. Is that correct?
Does the thought not occur to you that that is at best cursory research and at worse poor research?
Remind us again of what you are saying about poor research above from those that you condemn?
Again in light of your claims above, it is pertinant here to ask what your qulifications are in this field to make such claims?
You also state this "It's widely accepted when a species is in serious decline, their behaviour alters."
Widely accepted by whom? To help us understand it would be helpful here if you state which "expert(s)" and where they've said it. References again would be helpful.
You'll fully accept I would assum that sweeping statements like that are far more complex when you get into the detail of the reasons for behaivoural change.
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Yes Sam I know what they eat, just having a go at a certain ''group'' that seem to get pleasure by vilifying poor old Mr Otter
Now Mink, I know they do what they do and calling them evil was just just a term I used to describe there murderous ways
---------- Post added at 07:58 ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 ----------
I know all to well what certain keepers (and their bosses) get up to, the same ones that kill Raptors (birds of pray to you
) but, they are not all the same, there are some good conservationists about these days.benny samways
Well-known member
Or even birds of prey:w
The general decline of otters and raptors was a result of them being poisened as a consequence of them being top of the food chain (farming practises meant that most food eaten by these predators was toxic).
THANKS BINKA. Sorted my clock now (lets hope my boss isnt checking on me:wh)
cg74
Well-known member
1, By dropping those three points the post can easily be taken in different light.
2, The reason for edit is clearly displayed and you've quoted the original text, no issue - just you being ass!
3&4, Dr David Allen and Graham Scholey.
5, I'm not interested.
6, Because the behavioural traits of otters seem to be changing in many new pieces of literature. Suggests that earlier pieces were written on limited numbers of otters. Always seen as being shy/scared of humans, dogs yes, humans no! Of course there are exceptions to the rule, there always is...
7, I have read considerably more than one piece of literature and have no intention of discussing my education, either with you or a forum.
8, Simon King and David Attenborough among others but seeing as I could Google the answer - me answering the question is pointless.
Out of curiosity, do you think that a threatened species is likely to change its behaviour?
jasonbean1
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they have an intersting thread going on bfw
Anglers Mail - John Bailey Article - Barbel Fishing World Forums
i read the article in the mail and alot of what he said is what i've thought for along time.
before karen twine started her ouse study/phd our local ea officer pointed her in my direction with a the idea of carrying it out on the cherwell, we spoke on the phone...but unfortunately for me i never heard from her again.
i have read a bit more of her phd findings in BS magazine and it is quite eye opening....it all comes down to **** spawning and recruitment nowadays whith the odds stacked against barbel so greatly on many smaller rivers and stocking may be the only answer.
it's terrible to say but i agree with alot CG says, on my local bit of cherwell the few surviving barbel are pretty much impossible to catch...they are there though, the electro fishing proofs it. so i'm a beleiver that these big old wise fish with not many mates go into a survival mode, trying there best to stay alive and even avoiding anglers through some kind of learnt behaviour
cheers
jason
Anglers Mail - John Bailey Article - Barbel Fishing World Forums
i read the article in the mail and alot of what he said is what i've thought for along time.
before karen twine started her ouse study/phd our local ea officer pointed her in my direction with a the idea of carrying it out on the cherwell, we spoke on the phone...but unfortunately for me i never heard from her again.
i have read a bit more of her phd findings in BS magazine and it is quite eye opening....it all comes down to **** spawning and recruitment nowadays whith the odds stacked against barbel so greatly on many smaller rivers and stocking may be the only answer.
it's terrible to say but i agree with alot CG says, on my local bit of cherwell the few surviving barbel are pretty much impossible to catch...they are there though, the electro fishing proofs it. so i'm a beleiver that these big old wise fish with not many mates go into a survival mode, trying there best to stay alive and even avoiding anglers through some kind of learnt behaviour
cheers
jason
Glad you liked it Jason, shed a bit of light didn't it!
By the way, Karen is now the EA Fisheries Officer for the Loddon catchment.
By the way, Karen is now the EA Fisheries Officer for the Loddon catchment.