Decline in Barbel Populations

[thecrow]

If, and it's a BIG if, pellets are found to be detrimental to coarse fish health what is the "modern" barbel to do if they get banned

Maybe the fish in some rivers will start to look like Barbel should instead of fat pigs.

 

[Judas Priest]

Should have also said "modern barbel ANGLERS".

 

[The bad one]

Was the contraceptive pill something to do with sex changes in fish?

Yes Mark they are EDSs via the two substances (estrogen and oestrogen), which make up the active ingredients to avoid pregnancy. Don’t get fixated on this as being the reason for inter-sexing as there are far worse and more potent chemicals entering the rivers in every day usage in far greater quantities than what a woman p***es out in a day. The active ingredients are but a small part of the total load.

As per usual when the story broke (20 odd years ago) with headlines of “Gender Bender chemicals make male fish female.” The press seized on the Pill as the simple easy to understand common denominator. Thereby creating the myth that that was the only cause. It was bollox then and its bollox now!
Far be it for me to suggest the press had other reasons for not stating the everyday in use chemicals, which at the time and still are, far more potent than them.
But when have you ever seen advertisements carried by them for the Pill?
Whereas those multinational companies regularly advertise those everyday products that are know or considered to be EDSs to the tune of many millions of their advertising budgets in the self same papers.

 

[Titus]

If, and it's a BIG if, pellets are found to be detrimental to coarse fish health what is the "modern" barbel to do if they get banned

The modern barbel will be fine, the modern barbel angler however will be at a loss.
Meanwhile those of us old enough to remember the days before the pellet revolution will quietly revert to meat, maggot, hemp and casters and carry on catching just as we did before.

 

[no-one in particular]

Yes Mark they are EDSs via the two substances (estrogen and oestrogen), which make up the active ingredients to avoid pregnancy. Don’t get fixated on this as being the reason for inter-sexing as there are far worse and more potent chemicals entering the rivers in every day usage in far greater quantities than what a woman p***es out in a day. The active ingredients are but a small part of the total load.

As per usual when the story broke (20 odd years ago) with headlines of “Gender Bender chemicals make male fish female.” The press seized on the Pill as the simple easy to understand common denominator. Thereby creating the myth that that was the only cause. It was bollox then and its bollox now!
Far be it for me to suggest the press had other reasons for not stating the everyday in use chemicals, which at the time and still are, far more potent than them.
But when have you ever seen advertisements carried by them for the Pill?
Whereas those multinational companies regularly advertise those everyday products that are know or considered to be EDSs to the tune of many millions of their advertising budgets in the self same papers.

Thanks Baddo-I was not sure, a bit more knowledge for me. I did not link the edc's to it; I have not that much on the subject -The Press-they will grab any head line and twist it to sell papers.

---------- Post added at 08:47 ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 ----------

Mark if you google endocrine disrupters in water/rivers there is lots of info on there.

Thanks Crow, I will have a look later. (I know, I should have done that first)

 

[bennygesserit]

Benny,
If that was the case would it not be reasonable to presume that other small fish would have gone the same way? I doubt this is the reason for the decline in barbel stocks on some rivers.

I suspect that there are many factors that have attributed and that it is not just down to one factor.

Only my opinion not based on any science

Kind regards
Ray

Ray are you saying that heavy floods , and we know we have had a few of those in the last few years , do not wash small fish away ?

 

[thecrow]

One things sure Benny, any dredging carried out by the EA will make that piece of the puzzle worse as it will increase the speed of the river as it hurtles towards the sea only for the EA to moan about lack of water a few weeks later.

 

[Titus]

Ray are you saying that heavy floods , and we know we have had a few of those in the last few years , do not wash small fish away ?

Contrary to popular belief heavy floods don't wash fish away, there are always slack areas where fish can find refuge, these can vary from huge lakes formed by flooded fields to tiny areas the size of a teacup behind a grassy tussock.
The prolonged summer floods of 2007 (I think) provided a bumper recruitment season for the Severn catchment and the shallow lakes which lasted for several weeks were a haven for fry of all species. The flip side of that was the loss of the huge shoals of bream from the lower river but that in turn has resulted in more available food for the roach and barbel which are thriving.

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Ray are you saying that heavy floods , and we know we have had a few of those in the last few years , do not wash small fish away ?

Benny, what I said was I don't believe floods are responsible for the decline in barbel on some of our rivers. As Ade has said fish big or small can find refuge in the biggest of floods. A boulder here an under cut bank there and the endless sangs in most rivers will be a refuge. Don't forget the flow on the surface is not the same flow on the river bed, it can be almost stationary at riverbed level.

I believe that water quality and what is getting into our rivers is more likely to be the cause for the decline. On the other hand it could just be things equaling out and nature finding a balance.

I am not a scientist so don't have the answers, and nor do others regarding pellets of some types being responsible. Evidence will have to be gathered to prove that theory, and will no doubt be to costly for individuals or a single species group to take on, I may be wrong of course.

Regards
Ray

 

[Judas Priest]

Ray

Keep on debating mate.

One point regarding floods. You're as old as the hills and will remember back to our youthful days when all that was left behind after a flood was mud. Nowadays it's all colours and usually stinks to high heaven, leading me to believe that raw sewage etc is entering the watercourses as a regular occurrence. This in turn must have an impact on invertebrate life, the foods juvenile fish of all species rely upon.

It would appear that the smaller rivers are more impacted upon regarding juvenile recruitment of barbel. Would make more sense though to see if Rivers such as the Kennet, Loddon, lea etc have seen an increase in other species or is the reduction across all fish life before we can blame water quality.

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Ray

Keep on debating mate.

One point regarding floods. You're as old as the hills and will remember back to our youthful days when all that was left behind after a flood was mud. Nowadays it's all colours and usually stinks to high heaven, leading me to believe that raw sewage etc is entering the watercourses as a regular occurrence. This in turn must have an impact on invertebrate life, the foods juvenile fish of all species rely upon.

It would appear that the smaller rivers are more impacted upon regarding juvenile recruitment of barbel. Would make more sense though to see if Rivers such as the Kennet, Loddon, lea etc have seen an increase in other species or is the reduction across all fish life before we can blame water quality.

Phil,
You're not wrong there mesun old I am. I'm just trying to drum up some interest in this topic which is also going on behind supposed closed doors well apart from BFW that is. You and I know there is no such thing though don't we I have just been told that a poll on the issue put up on a certain facebook page has been rubbished (edit).

As a long term barbel angler I am of course interested in just what is going on be it pellets,water quality,otters,cormorants, that have caused this decline?

I don't fish the Lea these days to may cray's so can't comment on any increase in other species or the Kennett for that matter.

I fish the Trent and Teme these days, the former appears to have a vast array of species I have had some nice Roach from that river. I always do alright on the Teme and catch different year classes on most trips.

I doubt we will find out what is going on with barbel on some of our rivers. No one seems to want to take it on. Probably due to cost's, and the amount of studies it will require to come up with the positive proof for the decline.

Still we can keep the kettle on the gas to try and get someone to take it on can't we?

Regards
Ray

 

[Judas Priest]

Thanks Ray glad you're still catching a few. As we both know, those who profess to be the movers and shakers do more not moving and not shaking than a dead ferret with its head buried in the sand. Action of any sort is not a word they understand very well.

For years I was knocking on about, not just juvenile barbel but the smaller species being very absent from our river systems. Fish such as Gudgeon, bullheads, loaches, bleak and even minnows appear to have disappeared in any numbers especially from the smaller rivers. the days of the margins being black with smaller species seemed to have gone.
My thinking being that these smaller species feed on the same foodstuffs (invertebrates) as the juvenile fish of the larger species, take that out of the equation and you will end up with poor recruitment.

I must say though that on the lower the silvers are making a great comeback, even though the bleak are a little absent, and we get a good cross section of year class barbel which appear to be in great condition, so perhaps the bigger waters can cope better with whatever's going on if there's anything going on and it's not just Mother Nature redressing the balance.

 

[The bad one]

Contrary to popular belief heavy floods don't wash fish away, there are always slack areas where fish can find refuge, these can vary from huge lakes formed by flooded fields to tiny areas the size of a teacup behind a grassy tussock.
The prolonged summer floods of 2007 (I think) provided a bumper recruitment season for the Severn catchment and the shallow lakes which lasted for several weeks were a haven for fry of all species. .....

Somewhat miss leading this for several reasons - washout does occur when over topping happens, as you acknowledge by the formation of temporary lakes and fish seeking refuge in them. The impact being greatest on fry and year 1-3 fish, which haven’t developed the innate survival strategies to return to the river channel as the flood recedes. The larger fish in the main having developed that innate survival strategy.
The smaller fish then get marooned in those temporary lakes/pools and fall prey to all manner of birds, not only the fish eating species, including gulls, turns (summer) and all members of the crow family, ever the intelligent opportunists they are, as the water dries up. The mortality rate of these year classes under these conditions is very high indeed and causes a discontinuity of stock profile in future years.

Added to this in heavy floods of this type is the violent nature and velocity of the floodwater flow that brings down all nature of debris, large and small pebbles, even moving whole gravel runs 10s of metres from their original position before the flood. Twigs, logs and full trees. Along with all the man-made rubbish that get thrown in the river. Again, these now missiles, will take there toll on all fish causing injury and death to them by being hit by them. There is no doubt, if you are a fish in these conditions you are living in a very hostile environment indeed!

Ray whilst the flow in rivers is lamina (slower at the sides and bed) under flooding conditions it becomes distorted from the idealised model and the speed, pace picks up vastly, creating helicoilous flow that extends to the bed of the river causing Saltation (the picking up of stones, pebbles and crashing them into the next in a chain reaction) which intern allows gravel runs to move as I stated above.

I’ve mentioned earlier I’ve been getting over the last two years significant numbers of year 0-1 tiny barbel in my invertebrate net samples and the reasons why is, they hide in the stones/gravel at that size in their hundreds if not thousands. They frankly stand very little chance of survival once saltation starts because of where they hide.

 

[cg74]

I think it depends on where you fish and where your river is on it's cycle. Numbers in the middle severn for instance are well down on what they were 25 years ago but the average size is up. It took me 20 years of regular two or three times a week outings before I caught a double from above Stourport and while they are still not a common sight when I was fishing for barbel regularly three or four years ago I would expect to see a couple every season from a return of around 150 to 200 fish.

The Trent however is a different proposition altogether and despite me being a fairly average angler, probably bordering on lazy, I have on several occasions had 3 or four doubles up to 12 Lb in multiple catches of over 20 fish in an afternoon, on one memorable day I arrived at 2pm and by 9pm I had walked the mile or so to the pub and was eating pie and chips having stopped fishing when I had caught 25 barbel which included 8 doubles. That was from a very prolific syndicated weir pool and is probably not typical of the whole length but it does show the potential of the bigger rivers and I include the Wye in this as I have also had good results from there, above and below Hereford.

I am aware however that there are plenty of other waters where the fishing is in decline and probably for exactly the reasons listed in the posts above, i.e. poor recruitment, over abstraction, high levels of 'gray' water or treated effluent with all the associated problems, many of which are not fully understood, and of course the recent increase in predation by mammals (four and two legged).

Whilst agreeing that on some rivers the barbel are in decline due to many factors it is worth pointing out that without mans interference in the first place, barbel would not be present anyway, and there's one overriding factor in all this and it's called Mother Nature.

If barbel had evolved over time to be sustainable in most rivers it is now present due to mans recent stocking, then nature would have dictated it to be so.
Over the last 10-20yrs man has created artificial environments with his continual stocking and re stocking of waterways leading to anglers thinking it is the norm for such high populations of barbel to be present.

What we are seeing on the rivers I fish are an increase in the silver fish populations as the barbel populations "decline" from the heady days of a few years ago, it's called nature balancing itself out and I for one welcome it.

A lot of river anglers are quick to decry " overstocked carp puddles" but in effect we have been creating " overstocked barbel rivers" for the last few years to the detriment of other riverine species, especially on the smaller rivers.

For me these two posts are the best on this thread, as they pretty much echo my thoughts.

If, and it's a BIG if, pellets are found to be detrimental to coarse fish health what is the "modern" barbel to do if they get banned

Use boilies and if fishmeal becomes to expensive just mince up some silverfish and they'll act as a replacement - you could call them 'rubby dubby' boilies or is that now a registered trademark??

Which suggests the use of estrogen and oestrogen in historic pellet,

Yes Mark they are EDSs via the two substances (estrogen and oestrogen), which make up the active ingredients to avoid pregnancy.

Phil, you seem a little confused; Oestrogen and Estrogen are the same thing, only the latter is an American variant spelling.

 

[Titus]

Somewhat miss leading this for several reasons - washout does occur when over topping happens, as you acknowledge by the formation of temporary lakes and fish seeking refuge in them. The impact being greatest on fry and year 1-3 fish, which haven’t developed the innate survival strategies to return to the river channel as the flood recedes. The larger fish in the main having developed that innate survival strategy.
The smaller fish then get marooned in those temporary lakes/pools and fall prey to all manner of birds, not only the fish eating species, including gulls, turns (summer) and all members of the crow family, ever the intelligent opportunists they are, as the water dries up. The mortality rate of these year classes under these conditions is very high indeed and causes a discontinuity of stock profile in future years.
.

That is not what we experienced in 07, the main casualties then on the lower Severn were the adult bream, in some areas after the floods receded the fields were paved with them yet devoid of other species.

The shallow lakes I referred to were always connected to the river and as the levels returned to normal over the period of a couple of weeks the 'round' species and younger year classes, in the main, found their way into the drainage systems and eventually back into the river.

Severnside farmers have been dealing with flooding for years and most of the floodplain is engineered in such a way that there are very few areas which are not connected back to the river by ditches and drains so standing water after a flood is not a feature. While there were undoubtedly casualties I can't remember seeing flocks of birds gorging themselves on fry around the odd puddle but I do remember seeing them perched on the corpses of the bream which were caught out probably due to their anatomy.

However, as interesting as this is it is a very different situation than the idea which was originally postulated regarding fish being 'washed away' by floodwater..

 

[The bad one]

That may well be the case on the lower Severn, I can tell you it’s not the case from Bridgenorth up and as you know my club controls many lengths from there to Newton. Many of the fields having small hollows depressions in them with no connection to any dyke or stream. Over topping fills them up fish get trapped and it good night Vienna. You simply can’t equate what you witnessed on the lower Severn and extrapolate that out on a national scale because the situation has been witnessed far too many times by anglers up and down the country.
The Trent was famous for this happening when it was matched up 70s 80s. Same with the Fens district and as for the northern spate rivers it happens on even a modest flood.
I wish I had a pound for every netfull of fish I’ve put back into the Ribble after a 3 metre flood.

Colin confusion accepted Would you like to say anything on growth promoters past and present, as it's something I guess you know about?

 

[Titus]

Whatever you say Phil.

 

[Judas Priest]

TBO just out of interest and it's a serious question, how many juvenile barbel have you seen trapped in these depressions or were they all juvenile silvers ?

The barbel has evolved over centuries to cope with water flows and that includes increased water flows during flooding, as flooding is not a modern phenomenon.

 

[bennygesserit]

TBO just out of interest and it's a serious question, how many juvenile barbel have you seen trapped in these depressions or were they all juvenile silvers ?

The barbel has evolved over centuries to cope with water flows and that includes increased water flows during flooding, as flooding is not a modern phenomenon.

I am not disagreeing with you but its certainly part of evolution that the bio mass can cope with catastrophe hence numbers will naturally fluctuate anyway

---------- Post added at 10:13 ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 ----------

I also don't see a need to get personal TBO on what might be an interesting thread

 

[Judas Priest]

Agreed Benny, it's Mother Nature at work.