Stillwater barbel

[wes79]

The other thing is these venues are typically match venues where fish are dropped into keepnets for hours at a time. That goes against everything Ive been taught about barbel care.

couldn't agree more mate.

---------- Post added at 14:44 ---------- Previous post was at 14:27 ----------

I've seen stillwater Barbel in far better shape and condition compared to some of the big fat pop bellied river Barbel people post pics of or the ones that end up in the comics because they are doubles.

Just out of curiosity, have you seen a 10-15 year old still water Barbel?

I would be interested to see what one really looks like, if it is lean, are the flanks firm and do they reflect the amount of usage over its life period, does it carry any extra fat for the winter, can a fish relegated from its enviromental feeding dominance in its natural habitat reach its full potential (like in Spanish rivers) etc etc.

I'm not convinced it is a good idea putting Barbel in still waters but that opinion I hold shouldn't fear the scrutiny of comparison between the two fish from differing environments and the outcomes, as I have faith that time will tell.

My main worry (amongst others already mentioned) is the genetic diversity being completely closed off in ponds/lakes, left at the mercy of to few milt and egg doners and elevation of inbreeding depression left to take its natural course and so is leaving the susceptibility for genetic disease to arise more often if its already contained in one particular still water. This cannot be simply avoided by "regular stockings" of reared Barbel as these to are normally produced from even fewer milt and egg donors.



If I had to make a prediction, it would be one based upon the variation contained within Barbel species, losing some of its instinctual abilities, like being able to hold a position in extremely fast water, almost effortlessly, as what is not used will eventually be rejected, but again that is just my opinion of why Barbel are shaped the way they are and why, when given the choice, naturally seek out highly oxygenated water, the choices seem a little restricted and based on depreciation of conditions, which have to be artificially maintained just to give what is a sub standard habitat.

Time will tell.

 

[bennygesserit]

Stillwater Barbel . . . . . . . .


That is the Ultimate Oxymoron!

maybe just an analysis of aesthetics is required , but that's a desperate fruitless , wonderland , chase.

Peter your fish are hard won , artistically portrayed, fish that are "worthy" of an artists attention, that's great but they are still fish and still the still water fish that anyone could catch , maybe given the chance.

 

[greenie62]

...Also if your really bored you can check out the video from the day...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnIOlt17q0&spfreload=10
...

I was bored - so I had a look - not sure whether I agree with the principle of still-water barbel or not but looks like you had an enjoyable day. Your video captured the spirit of the session - well done!
Tight Lines :thumbs:

 

[thecrow]

Barbel are a running water species and should be left to live where they were designed by nature to be, they do not do well in keepnets or low oxygen conditions both of which are found at commercial still waters where Barbel have been stocked.

The stocking of Barbel into still waters has to do with one thing and one thing only and that's money, the welfare of the fish being stocked is at best a secondary thought if one at all.

If anglers want to catch Barbel get out on a river and fish for them, to many anglers not prepared to put the effort in taking the easy route.

 

[Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC)]

Let's be frank- if fish welfare is top of an Angler's agenda then we wouldn't fish for them would we. We would just make sure their environments were looked after, preserve stocks and just observe them and take underwater photos.

Try looking from a non Angler's perspective.

 

[thecrow]

Let's be frank- if fish welfare is top of an Angler's agenda then we wouldn't fish for them would we. We would just make sure their environments were looked after, preserve stocks and just observe them and take underwater photos.

Try looking from a non Angler's perspective.

How many "none anglers" care about fish or the riverine environment? its possible that without anglers there would be fewer fish to care about anyway.

Most of the none angling public haven't a clue of the problems our rivers and the creatures that inhabit them have to face, some of those that do know don't care as long as their own agenda's are satisfied, still water Barbel being one of them.

 

[bennygesserit]

I don't see the harm really , its in a commercial owners interest to see that his/her stock survive and after all fish don't feel pain.

I am under no illusion , when I fish a commercial , about where I am fishing so if I catch a barbel on a day out fishing with my lads I am more intent on simply enjoying myself and so is anyone who is testing their skill by catching river barbel ( though it doesn't look that hard to be honest judging by this forum ).

So if you catch a giant after stalking it for days from a tree - well done I hope you enjoyed yourself but don't kid yourself that you or your fish is more worthy than another my fish and your fish are both just fish after all.

 

[thecrow]

So if you catch a giant after stalking it for days from a tree - well done I hope you enjoyed yourself but don't kid yourself that you or your fish is more worthy than another my fish and your fish are both just fish after all

Sorry Benny that just doesnt make sense to me, are you saying that a fish that has just come along and taken an anglers bait on a commercial is as creditable as a fish that may be the biggest in the water being fished and has probably taken a lot of effort to catch are both the same?

If you think its easy to catch Barbel why don't you give it a try, one problem you might have is finding some, its not all about chucking big feeders and waiting, small river Barbel are an elusive beast with the whole river to swim in, Barbel in a still water do not and if in a commercial probably have to through high stock levels rely on anglers bait to survive

 

[tigger]

Barbel are a running water species and should be left to live where they were designed by nature to be, they do not do well in keepnets or low oxygen conditions both of which are found at commercial still waters where Barbel have been stocked.

The stocking of Barbel into still waters has to do with one thing and one thing only and that's money, the welfare of the fish being stocked is at best a secondary thought if one at all.

If anglers want to catch Barbel get out on a river and fish for them, to many anglers not prepared to put the effort in taking the easy route.

Just as a comparison...

chickens are wild birds and should live where they were designed by nature to be, they do not do well in cramped conditions and without exercise both of which are found at batterifarms where chickens are being kept.

Keeping chickens in batterie farms is to do with one thing and one thing only and that's money, the welfare of the chickens being kept is at best asecondary thought if one at all.

I'm not teckin' the mick out of you Crow, i'm agreeing with what your saying but at the end of the day money talks and as the old saying goes "money makes the world go around". So even though something may be wrong or appear to be wrong if there's money to be made then it's gonn'a happen.
Only way to look at it is that the creatures involved be it farm animals or fish in a pond simply wouldn't exist unless they'd been bred for the purpose.

Also it makes it possible for anglers who arn't in the best of health to get on the bank and catch various species of fish....just a little food for thought.

 

[bennygesserit]

I

Sorry Benny that just doesnt make sense to me, are you saying that a fish that has just come along and taken an anglers bait on a commercial is as creditable as a fish that may be the biggest in the water being fished and has probably taken a lot of effort to catch are both the same?

If you think its easy to catch Barbel why don't you give it a try, one problem you might have is finding some, its not all about chucking big feeders and waiting, small river Barbel are an elusive beast with the whole river to swim in, Barbel in a still water do not and if in a commercial probably have to through high stock levels rely on anglers bait to survive

Sorry I wasn't clear , if you want to catch just a few fish then yes I agree most commercials can be relatively easy. If you want to catch more than the guy next to you in a match then they are hard as the best angler you are fishing against.

I diluted my point with the snidey comment about barbel , what I mean't was we each enjoy our fishing no matter where we are on the scale ( pun ) and , while some fish might be difficult , no fish ( or indeed angler ) , is worthier than another.

Simply put it does my nut the way sone crack on about how worthy they are and how they are proper anglers , fine I admire dedication and hard work but frankly I reserve all my hard work and effort for my job and the fact that I enjoy happy splodging doesn't make me a second class citizen on the bank or on this forum.

 

[dorsetandchub]

Not trying to be controversial here but isn't some of the anti argument based on the size of the fish and the "perfect world" scenario that, physiologically, the barbel is a river fish, only suited to that environment and should not be placed elsewhere?

Gudgeon are similarly river designed yet nobody seems too worried that canals and many lakes are stuffed with them.

Nobody seems overly worried that dace crop up in stillwaters and, indeed, Stillwater chub have become a cult capture with many anglers believing that a big, solitary, seen-it-all Stillwater chub is one of angling's great prizes.

If your stance is that barbel belong in rivers, all you have to do is fish for them there and avoid those stillwaters which offend so much.

How far does the argument go? Do we get rid of rainbow trout, zander, wels because they shouldn't be there?

Prior to the mid 1950s and the Angling Times stocking of the Severn, there very likely wouldn't have been a barbel thread even, if t'internet had been a reality.

Surely there's room in angling for everybody? If a kiddie can catch his first barbel at a commercial where Mum can drop him off to fish safely rather than a river too far away or too challenging / dangerous, then surely that's better than drifting away from the sport, to other distractions?

Sorry guys, but the world has changed. You have to accept it because, perversely, change is the one thing you can't change.

You've all accepted email and the internet. You can't pick and choose and only accept those changes you like. That's just the way it is.

Regards to all

 

[thecrow]

Just as a comparison...

chickens are wild birds and should live where they were designed by nature to be, they do not do well in cramped conditions and without exercise both of which are found at batterifarms where chickens are being kept.

Keeping chickens in batterie farms is to do with one thing and one thing only and that's money, the welfare of the chickens being kept is at best asecondary thought if one at all.

I'm not teckin' the mick out of you Crow, i'm agreeing with what your saying but at the end of the day money talks and as the old saying goes "money makes the world go around". So even though something may be wrong or appear to be wrong if there's money to be made then it's gonn'a happen.
Only way to look at it is that the creatures involved be it farm animals or fish in a pond simply wouldn't exist unless they'd been bred for the purpose.

Also it makes it possible for anglers who arn't in the best of health to get on the bank and catch various species of fish....just a little food for thought.

I am not sure if chickens are kept in batteries any longer, even if they are I have always purchased free range chickens.

I am an angler who is not in the best of health but I would never fish a commercial for Barbel, its just a personal decision, I fish rivers for Barbel, why should the Barbel be placed in less than ideal waters (the EA seem to be good at that) just so that someone can catch one, plenty of other species more suited to still water.

 

[steve2]

Why not, I have caught them to 7lb and seen bigger ones caught. They are in most cases in as good condition as many of the river ones I have caught. Like the regular caught river ones they are well fed on good food and in years to come the record, like the chub record as in the past, will go to still water barbel.

 

[robertroach]

I agree with Crow, to me barbel are a hard fighting fish living, breeding and thriving in running water. It just doesn't seem right to put them in a muddy puddle to make it easier to fish for them.
I understand the commercial reasons for doing it but I would rather be on a river bank fishing for a wild fish in its own environment any day.

 

[Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC)]

If I can use an analogy; Fishing for barbel in heavily stocked commercials is like playing golf on a course that has conical greens with 3ft diameter holes...it makes the game of golf so much more accessible to those with less experience and allows the older generation to play when they might find it too difficult on a regular course.

 

[tonybull]

Anglers who pursue Barbel in rivers and don't like the stillwater stockings need to accept that there's no going back, its here to stay and its widely accepted and part of the norm in fishing.

 

[tigger]

I would rather be on a river bank fishing for a wild fish in its own environment any day.

So would I but there are many others who wouldn't so commercial owners are supplying the demand.
Many rivers need to be re-stocked with fingerling barbel (otherwise they'd die out) that have been bred in fish farms anyhow so they ain't really wild, just free range.

 

[dorsetandchub]

So would I but there are many others who wouldn't so commercial owners are supplying the demand.
Many rivers need to be re-stocked with fingerling barbel (otherwise they'd die out) that have been bred in fish farms anyhow so they ain't really wild, just free range.

As was pointed out to me, the Wye fish are originally Severn and Trent strains.

 

[sam vimes]

As was pointed out to me, the Wye fish are originally Severn and Trent strains.

And as I understand it (I'd not put my life on it, but I've heard it often enough) the original EA breeding stock, for the early Trent stockings, originated from the Swale.

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A point that many of the objectors to "unnatural" barbel stockings often seem to conveniently overlook is that barbel do not naturally occur in quite a number of the rivers that they have gone on to establish rather healthy populations.

Like many, I have no particular desire to fish for stillwater barbel. I'm not actually pro stillwater barbel. However, I have very occasionally fished stillwaters with them present. I've even caught a few and seen plenty more. They've always fought well enough, and I knew that they weren't carp or tench as soon as they were hooked. Apart from a slightly washed out appearance, typical of most fish living in turbid coloured water, I've yet to see one in poor condition. Were that not the case, I may well join those that object so strongly. As it is, I'm largely indifferent. As an angler, you pay your money and make your choice. The same goes for the fishery owners.

 

[dorsetandchub]

I honestly don't know but if correct it shows how well travelled they are, doesn't it??