Has barbel tackle gone to far?

[mickb]

Hi all and good luck for the new season.
I've been fishing for barbel for the last 20 years or so with no interest in any other species. In the last 20 years I've seen big differences in barbel fishing but no real difference in the size of barbel I'm catching. Back in the mid 90s I was catching 8 or 9lbs with the same regularity as I am these days. Back then I was watching dave harrel videos and either the specimen approach for barbel wasn't around or I wasn't aware of it. I used casters and hemp with a big feeder rod and 6lb line straight through to a size 12 drennan super spade. Not once did a barbel break my line but I must admit that I daren't put too much pressure on them. I landed them no problem but must admit they were tired out when I got them in and needed time to recover which they did in a few minutes. Like I said I was unaware back then. I went through the process as we all have using higher breaking strain lines and specific design barbel rods. My line strength went up to 8 then 10 then 12lb. Because of the thicker diameter line there was more drag on the line from the river current (I fish a powerful river ribble) therefore more weight to hold bottom had to be used even with a bow in the line and the rod tip held high. Of course the higher weights then needed a more powerful rod to cast them out. Back in the 90s with 6lb line I could hold bottom with 30 gram black cap feeder. I really got carried away. Using 12lb big game with a diameter approx 0.35mm needed 3 oz or so to hold bottom and I went out and bought a top of the range daiwa infinity 2.25lb test curve rod. Not cheap. Great rod. Even light enough to touch ledger if I wanted to (not that it's needed but it's fun). All of a sudden it occurred to me. I had a near double figure barbel on and I was just winching it in. The barbel had no chance and the fight felt awful. This seems to be the norm now on big rivers. I thought back to the 90s and thought I landed the same size fish with 6lb line and a heavy feeder rod and had so much fun. Now im using what used to be classed as a standard carp rod fishing for a fish that averages under double figures. People say they use heavier line now for abrasion resistance but i think this doesnt make sense. When a fish takes your line round a boulder as they do on the ribble does it really matter if your line is just 0.05 of a mm thicker? It's going to break anyway. When people say I've stepped up from 10lb line to 12lb because of snags does it matter? The difference is 0.03 of a millimetre. Makes no difference but it does make a difference with the drag of the river meaning heavier lines and heavier leads. I remember Steve Stayner writing that no British barbel could break a line with a wet knot strength of 10lb against the bend of a rod. A 0.28mm line has a wet knot strength of 12lb so this should be enough regardless what the breaking strain might say on the label. I'm certainly not suggesting going back down to 6lb line again because that's just too tiring on the fish but surely the need for silly diameter lines is not necessary. Bit like using a rocket launcher to kill a rabbit. Last season I went back to my 1.75lb test curve rod and 0.28mm mainline. I never needed more than 2 oz feeder even when the river was in flood and landed every barbel. It felt so much better. Being brainwashed by these articles suggesting crazy tackle for barbel did me no good. Did we not start fishing for barbel because of the bite and the fight in the first place? Let me know what you think.

 

[theartist]

Well said mate, there's been a few threads about the perils of line breakage, breaking strain, tiring fish and how one shouldn't lose any fish and step up the b.s if they do so, etc etc. Not to mention those big rocks that we don't have down south

It's the challenge that makes it more fun.

 

[mickb]

Hi the artist and thanks for the like. I think people just get brainwashed. I certainly did that's for sure. Barbel are hard fighters but their not great white sharks or orcas as some might make you believe. Their a good fighting fish that can be landed quite easily with sensible tackle but not the kind of tackle that could land a 40lb carp as some people use. We've got to remember their not a huge fish so we don't need to use this sort of crazy carp tackle for a fish that weighs mostly under double figures.

 

[tigger]

Why would 6lb line tire the fish out too much, that's another old wives tale.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

. . . many of the known perils of the tactics known as . . Carbelling . . . . . .

 

[mickb]

Hi tigger. I said 6lb line tired the fish out too much mainly because of me being paranoid of it snapping and taking too much care landing the fish. With a 0.28lb mainline I use now I can put all the pressure I want on the fish. Maybe I could of back then. 6lb line straight through does take some breaking.

---------- Post added at 06:23 ---------- Previous post was at 06:21 ----------

Very true Peter. I was told by a well known angler up here that people fishing with these heavy rods and lines are failed carp anglers. I saw this angler almost empty the ribble. Fantastic barbel angler. Using stepped up match tactics. Never lost a fish.

 

[sam vimes]

As ever, it's a case of horses for courses. Couple that with the knowledge that test curve ratings alone mean very litte. Just because a rod has a high test curve does not necessarily mean it's a poker. I certainly can't winch even modest barbel in on my heavy barbel rods, no more than I can on float rods or 1.25lb Avons. They may have a 2.75lb TC, but they bend right through with fairly modest fish. They are nothing like the vast bulk of similarly rated modern carp rods. However, I wouldn't choose to use my heavier barbel rods unless the swim or conditions dictated that I do. In that respect, barbel fishing is no different to any other fishing. I will use gear just a little heavier than the specific job in hand requires.

 

[thecrow]

The only situation I can envisage a 2.25 tc rod being needed is on a big powerful river such as the tidal Trent. Just winding in double figure barbel??? that's something I have never been able to do in all my years of fishing for them.

 

[john step]

Just depends on which river you fish I guess. Before I moved up to The Trent my barbeling was on the upper Lea which may have got as deep as 3 foot. I used to fish with 6lb bs and even bought a "carp pole" with strong elastic so I could hold back and edge the bait down between trailing weed in awkward winds. No problems.

The first time I fished the Tidal Trent was an experience. I took along my Diawa Jaguar quiver tip and 6lb line and some of my heavy leads, ALL OF AN OUNCE AND A HALF.

First cast a bit upstream as I had been advised. Tackle flew straight downstream int the rocks. There are quite a few there!!

There are places of course when not banging through you can go lighter but sometimes the snags are so prevalent and random on the bottom I like to fish a lead heavy enough to sink and hold bottom without moving immediately. That obviously requires a rod capable of dealing with the lead and line to match.
Catch 22 really.

Then there are places where you can fish directly downstream from the rod top, but not many. Sometimes it needs a 50-60- 70 yard chuck. Not always but when it does the heavy armament is what is needed.

I suppose its like saying carp fishing. Everywhere is different. Its the venue not the species.
Thats my take on it anyhow.

 

[theartist]

Don't know about you guys but i'm catching far too many Barbel that are trailing line that looks like rope usually coupled with a barbed size 8 and the sore that goes with it. Bit like carp on commercials the gear has got too heavy, the worst thing is these pools and gear are the learning curve for most anglers now even future river anglers

 

[thecrow]

There are swims that I used to fish that needed heavy line when the fish had to be held and noline given at all to the fish, 6lb line would not have done the job and would have resulted In a breakage.

In those circumstances I believe it is far better to be over gunned than find out when a fish has been lost that you were fishing to light.

As with all fishing there isn't a one size that fits all

 

[mikench]

I will comment on this marvellous fish after I have caught one. I have a suitable float rod, 6lb line and a pin one day!!!

Mickb have I seen you on the telly

 

[mickb]

Mikench if you could be bothered to read my first post properly you would see that I said I used 6lb line in the 90s when I didn't know any better. Feel free to use the 10lb (really 12lb) 0.28mm line I now use and I'm sure you'll land any barbel you'll hook. You can thank me later

---------- Post added at 07:26 ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 ----------

Saying that I believe barbel anglers fishing for barbel with stick floats and wagglers do use 6lb line as it comes off the reel much better than heavier lines.

---------- Post added at 07:32 ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 ----------

Also I'd just like to say that it is possible to just wind a double figure barbel in. Well not wind in but hold onto the rod and give no line. Well known barbel anglers like Tony Miles, Steve Stayner and Stef Horak do this all the time. You need a progressive actioned rod of course where the pressure builds up on the fish. Just dont use 6lb line

 

[thecrow]

Also I'd just like to say that it is possible to just wind a double figure barbel in.

Not possible and I have fished for barbel for over 50 years.

 

[sam vimes]

I'm not entirely convinced about the whole concept of winching barbel in. However, it might go some way to explaining why some folk talk of stripping the gears on their reels. Hit and hold I can go with. Overly agressive pumping and winding I've seen. I've never seen the most agricultural of barbel set ups being capable of winching even a fairly modest barbel in.

 

[mickb]

I don't really care if you've been fishing for barbel for a hundred years. I've done it myself and so has a lot of anglers. Tighten your clutch to the max, hold your rod horizontally and not vertically and hold on. If you're using the right actioned rod the barbel will give in. It just cannot break a decent 10lb line and will never bottom out a progressive actioned rod. Take a look at the excellent barbel dvds that Stuart walker and bob roberts have made. On one of them Steve pope lands a double figure fish without giving an inch of line. In fact he does it with several fish. Stef horak who has caught more barbel than pretty much anyone told me he gives them nothing. There is also an article in one of Steve Stayners books that shows you the right technique to do it. I've landed big barbel in excess of of the rated breaking strain I'm using and have given them no line whatsoever. It's easily possible. You just need the nerves to do it. Like I said they are good fighters but not great white sharks so don't treat them like they are.

 

[sam vimes]

I don't really care if you've been fishing for barbel for a hundred years. I've done it myself and so has a lot of anglers. Tighten your clutch to the max, hold your rod horizontally and not vertically and hold on. If you're using the right actioned rod the barbel will give in. It just cannot break a decent 10lb line and will never bottom out a progressive actioned rod. Take a look at the excellent barbel dvds that Stuart walker and bob roberts have made. On one of them Steve pope lands a double figure fish without giving an inch of line. In fact he does it with several fish. Stef horak who has caught more barbel than pretty much anyone told me he gives them nothing. There is also an article in one of Steve Stayners books that shows you the right technique to do it. I've landed big barbel in excess of of the rated breaking strain I'm using and have given them no line whatsoever. It's easily possible. You just need the nerves to do it. Like I said they are good fighters but not great white sharks so don't treat them like they are.

I suspect that this boils down to a question of terminology. What you describe (and I've seen on such videos) sounds like hit and hold with not an inch given followed by pump and wind to draw them in. That is a little different to using just the reel to winch, wind or crank them in The vast bulk of reels, including big pit reels favoured by carpbellers, will be destroyed in short order if you genuinely try to just wind them in.

 

[mickb]

This thread has kind of gone off topic. It was meant to be about the tackle used for barbel these days but it's gone on to other details. I know what I mean and I'm sure I will never convince the heavy tackle boys to change their ways. All the Trent guys saying they need carp rods. Funny isn't it that the likes of bob roberts and stef horak both use 1.75lb test curve rods for the Trent. Anybody seen the first DVD that bob roberts brought out? Lee swords on the Trent using fox 2.75lb test curve rods? What you didn't see on camara was that day bob roberts was actually fishing the next peg. Bob roberts told me this himself. He also told me that he was casting just as far out as Lee using his daiwa infinity 1.75lb test curve rod. Who do you think had the most fun playing barbel that day? Someone using a 2.75 test rod or someone using a 1.75lb test curve rod? And don't come out with that 'it's the action that matters' rubbish. Yea there's is a difference with a fast actioned rod to a through actioned rod but come on. Is there a need for a 2.75lb test curve rod for barbel regardless of river? Stef horak uses the old korum neoteric twin tip rod but always uses the 1.75lb top and has NEVER used the 2.2lb top. He's caught plenty of fish out of the Trent. Tony Miles has a friend who fishes the Trent. He told me his friend sees people on the opposite bank casting to his side and people on his side casting to the opposite bank. He just fishes on the inside line with a 1.75lb test curve rod and catches just the same. The tackle for barbel these days is as close to madness as can be. When I had my 2.25lb test curve rod I did winch barbel in. It was awful. I tried to be fair and play them out. I'm over and out with this thread. Just the thought of the tackle used these days makes my blood boil. Rant over. Over and out. Good luck.

 

[Philip]

It just cannot break a decent 10lb line and will never bottom out a progressive actioned rod.

Try lifting an 11lb Barbel out on 10lb line. BANG. They can break 10lb line.

I think your over simplifying a complex situation Mick. Flow for example can make a difference if the fish flanks onto a very strong current and surges off I recon it could break 10lb line.

In any case I think its asking for problems to winch them on over strong line even if your totally confident the line wont break, the reason being because its the hookhold rather than the line that could let you down.

I think its better to know your tackle and give line when you know it needs to be given than simply cranking them in robot style. I may as well go long line fishing, stick it out in the evening and then drag em all in in the morning. Thats not fishing. Not in my book anyway.

Agree with you on the idea that things are OTT now but thats just a consequance of bolt rig tactics being used Barbel...Carbelling as Peter said. Also agree that even the thickest line out there wont withstand a right angled pull across a sharp object....it might save you if it wraps round a branch however.

 

[108831]

Mick,I can see the point in a flood scenario(I don't fish the rivers then,only in slacker tree pegs),but in general terms I would say 8lbs bs is more than sufficient,this some years ago got me lambasted on FM,telling me that I was killing fish fishing this light,is it that anglers can't understand that you can only apply 1.75lbs with a 1.75lb test curve rod with a 90 degree bend,only by pointing the rod can you apply more,thus fishing even 6lb line would be fine on such a rod,lets be brutally honest here,its pretty easy playing a barbel on 10lb line,exciting yes,but that's just because barbel are a powerful fish.