Carp v Barbel rods

[Mike Fidler]

Interesting article in Anglers Mail today which confirmed something that I've been thinking about for sometime. A barbel rod can apply more pressure than the heaviest TC carp rod. Makes you think eh? In fact I've been using my barbel rod all summer long for floater fishing with great success. Any of you guys found the same?

 

[Dave Johnson]

Test curves are misleading Mike, as you know. I prefer to feel the rod under pressure etc to get a better idea of how it works. Problem with barbel rods comes when you are trying to punch out 3oz 100metres-something a good carp rod does easily as Rik points out in his article that is sitting in the 'Sea forum' thread....

 

[Paul Williams]

And it wasn't me put it there, this time!!! mind you i got lucky with Barney's "Snook" article...i was just about to ask Graham to switch it when i realised it WAS a sea fish...

 

[GYPSY DAVE]

Thro action rods exert more pressure per psi due to the fish fighting the rod not the test curve(if you know what i mean)(I think i'm right, but tech help needed)Feel free to help me out.

 

[Ron Clay]

Sorry Gysey Dave but could you explain what you mean. I think I know what you mean but as a boring old mechanical engineer I would like to help you on this one.

Quite simply a fishing rod is a special form of cantilever. The stiffer it is the more pressure you are able to exert. But there are other things too, such as length and the angle at which you use the rod to the line.

 

[Paul Williams]

But Ron....a rod has no fulcrum point on which to act as a lever so it is a pretty useless one!! it has always been my opinion that a slower taper rod will tire a fish better.....it's a little like the pole anglers elastic.....but as DJ says it is sometimes a nesesacity to cast a long way so as you know fast taper rods came into being.....problem is it was forgotten along the way that they were a tool for a specific job rather than a general rod!!!

 

[Carp Angler]

The fulcrum point is where the rod joins you!!
e.g. your pivoting wrist/elbow is the fulcrum.

 

[Paul Williams]

But the Fulcrum aint in an effiecient position in relation to the power applied....is it? a good lever/fulcrum is better positined, i'm not one of these who thinks a rod is an extension of your arm......a well chosen rod does the job, admitted we have to know how to use it though!

 

[Paul Kendall]

I will only use my fly rod for floater fishing - the amount of pressure you can apply when compared to a carp rod of say 2.75lb tc is awesome.

Also, when carp fishing I tend to use my Avons unless I'm fishing a pit or mere at distance and even then as I use light leads most of the time it is still possible to cast a good distance without over taxing the rod.

Maybe some rod designers out there should look at producing some slim through action blanks for carp rods .......

 

[Rob Brownfield]

i think lighter rods can apply more "useable" pressure. My pound and a half amourphous can be locked solid and I can turn big carp, pike and salmon no problem...but on the beefier rods as soon as I start to apply the pressure, the hook will pull (Talking HEAVY pressure here).

Have a look in Carp Fever on the section on rod Test Cuves. Kevin Maddocks tested different rods (tc and taper) and there was actually very little difference when used at 80 yards.

Try it yourself. With my 2 and 3 quarter tc Amourpuous's I can just about apply 3 pounds of pressure..and thats not sustaned. I could not even break 5 pound line on a steady pull!!

 

[Steve Dixon]

I've was given a pair of Freespirit Stepped up Specimen rods for my birthday by my long suffering (now given up) girlfriend.

After using these instead of my 2.5lb carp rods I am now reluctant to stop.
No hook pulls and a feeling of being in control and in touch is a completely new feeling.
Also using a smaller reel just makes the whole set up a lot more enjoyable.

 

[Ron Clay]

Personally I think that test curves are meaningless with modern rod and materials. There are some people who think that **** Walker invented the test curve concept. Not true. It was first described in Big Game fishing circles long before I was born.

Test curves might have meant something when rods were made out of cane and enven fibreglass which was a homogenious material. Take a modern fast taper rod. Bent it to the test curve, that is when the tip is at right angles to the butt. It might pull 1lb but due the the fact that the bottom 2/3rds of the rod are not even bending doesn't mean to say that the optimum line is 5 lbs bs. With modern compound tapers and different formulations and mixtures of resin and even kevlar, the optimum line strength might be nearer 9 lbs bs for this type of rod.

In effect a through action Avon type rod is well able to apply more pressure WITH A CURVE OF RESILIENCE IN HAND than the typical awful carp rods that are built today. I truly cannot stand the way that carp rods have developed. They feel like pokers, have horrible abbreviated rubber handles where the reel fitting uplocks and is set much too far from the butt to enable a fish to be played properly. Not only that you cannot achieve optimum casts with these anachronisms.

Do I see a bit of sense returning to rod design. I hope so. Nice cork handles with down locking reel fitting. actions that enable you to play a fish properly as well.

To be able to put heavy pressure on a fish and still retain an action curve demands a rod that will bend through it's length. The stiff long heavy horrors we see now have been the cause of more lost big fish than you can imagine.

 

[Andy Nellist]

A lot of the anglers these days don't understand what they are fishing with.

I can cast further than most of the Carp boys on the water I am fishing (115yds)with 1.75oz of lead. My rods (1lb 10oz Harrisons) are great for playing tench and bream yet have enough power to subdue any carp in the water. The Carp boys are using at least 3lb TC rods, have trouble hitting 100yds and loose a lot of fish.

Such rods on a 30 acre water with very few snags and carp to around 30lb have no purpose other than as a fashion statement.

 

[Ron Clay]

The difference Andy is that you, like me and lots of others in this website grew up learning how to fish properly. A lot of carp anglers (I don't mean the top ones who I have a great deal of respect for) have only ever in their lives used these brute carp sticks. Most of them don't even know how to play a fish properly (back winding, I ask you?).

I saw a guy hook a barbel on the Trent the other day. He was using big pit reels and brute sticks. He lost the fish of course when it got under his rod tip and started plunging. Lots of the carp boys do need lessons in basic angling.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Ron..u should see the salmon boys up here. They hook a fish and point the rod at it. Then they wind and wind and wind and wind. Does not matter if the fish is running or comming towards them..they still wind!. Its bloody hilarious!

I think its coz in 10 years of fishing, they maybe have only hooked 10 fish!!..lol

 

[Ron Clay]

Not only that Rob, but there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of anglers today who have only ever handled a fish at the end of a laccy band!!

 

[Philip Inzani]

Ron I assume you mean poles....whats wrong with them?

How did people used to fish the far side of a 30 foot canal with a 9 foot split cane rod?

You can say "thats it from me" and run from the thread but if you are going to make the sweeping statements that you do then I think a little more explanation is in order.

 

[Ron Clay]

Yes, I mean pole, and there is nothing wrong with poles, I use one myself.

There are as I have said a great many people who have never used a rod and reel. We have LOTS of them in this area. I was talking to a few only this week. I asked one guy, he was about 35 I guess why he doesn't fish a stick float on the Don in winter for roach. He told me that he had no idea of how to use the technique. He only fished matches on canals and commercials and that was just pole fishing.

 

[Philip Inzani]

Does it occur to you that maybe he does not want to fish a stick float on the Don in winter ? Was he enjoying what he was doing the day you spoke to him?

Lets turn things around a bit. What would Walker have done if you plonked him on 100 acre pit with a handful of Carp in it and asked hilm to catch one. Would he have stuck to his split cane rod and bread paste ? Fact is it seems to me that the old "masters" choose to avoid fishing waters like that. For the most part their "teachings" where based around misty dawns, chasing bubblers and fishing a quill float lift method style.

Walker lived around Bedfordshire didn?t he ? Lots of big pits round there which I am sure must have held some whopping great fish even in his time. Now tell me, did he choose to fish these places? I think not! Instead he choose to travel all the way to Ross on Wye to fish 3 acre lakes like Remire. Just to help him on his way they also restricted access to small elite syndicates. Why ? Was the pit fishing to difficult for them? Or perhaps its more likely they just did not understand the methods and tactics needed to fish places like that successfully. From what you say I would have thought someone with their vast range of skills would lend their hand to any branch of the sport in a twinkling of an eye.
Fact is I think that Walker and his contemporaries would have been lost on some of the waters that people are fishing successfully today. Even if he had access to the modern tackle do you think due to their superior skills (cough) that they could have just picked up a rod cast 150 yards, slap the rod on a buzzer and start bagging up? Of course not! Now does this mean that I can belittle them because of this ?

It is because of the advances in tackle and techniques and access to knowledge (given more freely!) that we are starting to exploit many more waters today?waters that the old masters choose for the most part to turn their backs on because they did not have a clue how to approach them. Yet for some reason a small band of people today still seem content to look down their noses and pour scorn on people sat behind buzzers and bivvies on a massive pit. The reason for the scorn ? ?.because they do not how to cast a dry fly for brown trout on the river Itchen!

Fact is people brought up fishing places like that unlikely to be experts at fly fishing or trotting a float in winter on the Don are they?.same as Walker would have been lost fishing the massive pit they are currently sat on.

A final thought to ponder?..Wouldn?t it be great if I could go back in time, I would walk up to Walker sitting on Redmire with his split cane rod and bread paste in the margins and said...."hey look **** why don?t you fish Wraysbury for Carp, its closer to your home and there are some whopping great fish in there mate"
I think his answer would have been remarkably similar to that pole angler you chatted to?.something along the lines of not knowing the techniques to fish a place like that!

 

[Jim Everiss]

Ron,i am in total agreement with your sentiments on carp rods.I have tried for several years to find a rod with a true through action.Years ago i owned a pair of B.W.glass Mk.1V carp rods that i used for carp,bass,pike,salmon and even light pollack fishing from a boat.They always coped superbly and let you feel the fight through to your hands.The modern trend is more to macho casting machines that would not be out of place on Dungeness beach!!They certainly put a lead out a long way but are dead in the hands when a fish is hooked.At last i have a set of rods that are a pleasure to use - they are the Century R.1.'s.They were advertised as 'The Players Rod'a role they perform superbly.Alas,they never seem to have caught on as i understand they have been discontinued after little more than a year.
Ther is no doubt that todays anglers are far,far more efficient at catching carp than even the great R.W. could have imagined - but i fear that somewhere along the line the soul has gone out of the sport.
Cheers,Jim.