Bent Hooks

[GrahamM]

I've just return from a club committee meeting where we debated the fact that most of the leading manufacturers who sell hooks have now got a hook pattern in their range that resembles, to a greater or lesser degree, the old bent hook pattern that was banned for damaging the mouths of carp.

Has anyone noticed an increase in mouth damage since these hooks have crept back onto the scene again? Or are these hooks too far removed from the original bent hook pattern to cause damage?

 

[Carp Angler]

I've said it on many previous occasions that the Partridege Piggyback and the F** series 5, do double hook, unlike the original bent hook.

The hook doesn't cause the damage, inexperienced extraction does.
Cut the hook and it falls out, try and save the hook and you will cause damage.

 

[Andy Thatcher]

I haven't noticed any damage on the carp waters that I visit from time to time apart from a commercial water that I go to with my brother in law. That some of these fish can feed is quite amazing. I would not point the finger at the hook patterns but the heavy handed nature of the unhooking of these fish.

I am not particularly pro barbless hooks but on commercial fisheries that have a large number of inexperienced clientele I'd insist on it.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Intresting one this, mouth damage that is. Firstly, I agree with Rik, Partridge and Fox both sell "bent hooks".
Secondly, I had a bit of trouble with double hooking with Nash Fangs. But I have not used them enough to be sure of the cause.

Thirdly...and this is the important one.....are hooks really to blame for the mouth damage. I used to fish a heavily pressured water in Essex in the late 70's. Many of the carp had been caught many, many times without any damage at all. Now, my theory is this. The strongest rod being used would have been a 2 pound test curve compound taper. The soft rod stops the hook from tearing.

Now...move forward in time. the same water, that has not changed in size etc is being fished by guys using 3 pound fast taper rods...and heavier. The leads have increased from half an ounce too 3ozs+.

I am going to stick my neck on the block and say that this is the cause of the present damage to the mouths of these carp in that particular water. Not the hook. The heavy lead bouncys around on the hooklink, moving and tearing the hook hold, The rod has little give so every head shake of the fish is against a solid pull. And the use of braid with these pokers of rods has compounded the problem.

I expect some flack, but I do feel we, as caring carpers, have to re think the gear we are using, for the benefit of the Carp.

What do u guys think?

 

[john conway]

Rob I’ve wonder myself about the use of heavy leads causing hooking problems but manly fishing for bream it’s unusual for me to use anything over 1-1/2 oz unless the river is in flood. Most of the still waters I fish are not large enough to have to use big weights. I can certainly see the logic in your argument Rob, a very heavy weight and stiff rod is certainly going to cause more problems if you occasionally latch onto a small fish.
I have however started to use carping methods to fish for large bream on the river at night, i.e. bolt rigs and buzzers etc. The question, all be it not quite related to bent hooks, is; what are the relationships between weight size and the size of fish when using a bolt rig?

 

[Rob Brownfield]

John, even on a big fish, I still think stiff rods cause a large degree of damage. Along with heavy leads.

As an example, I had a 22 pounder a few weeks ago on crust. I was using a size 8 nash Fang hook. The rod was a soft pound and a half test curve amourphous rod. The carp was hooked at my feet in heavy reeds. It fought like a tiger but the hook hold was solid. No tear, nothing. On the same water I hooked a 19 pounder on a 2 and 3/4 test curve rod at about 30 yards. (Using a heavy rod because I was using large PVA bags). I hooked the fish and, after a brief fight, nothing great, I noticed the hook , the same patten, had torn about 3/4 of an inch.

I know this is far from conclusive, but it worried me enough to stop using the rod for short range stuff. I switched to a soft 2 and a 1/4 and hooked another fish..about 17 pounds, again no tear.


As for size of weight in relation to size of fish....i think its a chicken and egg issue. I have used a 1oz lead as a bolt rig for tench, and have hooked large carp, and I have used 4 oz and hooked a 2 pound roach that did not even move the lead. i have no idea the poor thing was hooked. I now use either 1 and 1/2 oz or 2oz leads, relying on round ones or the essential products comets, both of which have the weight in a very concerntrated area. That way, I know when i have a pick up, even from a small fish. I often get a couple of bleeps, then a run.

Hope this helps a little

 

[Ray Bewick]

Rob et al

firstly I'am not a 'Carp' angler what ever that is now and i'm therefore not sufficently up to date with methods etc, but a thought occurred via observations I made some years ago.

I remember the use of heavy lead (pear shaped 2oz - 2.5 oz!) on bolt rig and eye mounted hairs, hooks SS size 12 to 8, 2 lb TC fast tapers against 1'5 TC through action only used for floating baits; no leads attached, same hook set ups The 2lb set ups certainly appeared to cause some damage with the hooks almost appearing to 'screw' in making unhooking an almost surgical procedure. Is it posible the method of attaching the bait has a bearing & therefore the way the bait is taken & thus how pressure is applied. Incidently the fish were not large even then, mid to upper doubles being the target, with singles fairly common (no pun intended!) and in my perception being damaged more.

I'm unsure if the above is of help, as there are many other factors involved not least the amount of pressure & angles at which its applied to a hook hold, but its broadly in line with Rob's thoughts.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Ray, thanx for that. It does seem to me that as rods have grown in power, so the incidence of =tering has risen. I am supprised not more anglers are making comments on this though. I wonder why?

 

[Ray Bewick]

Rob

This peTA thing has all decent Anglers 'jumpy' in case their words, deeds or actions are misinterpreted by these narrow minded, selfish & dangerous individuals.

However, taking into consideration the above and my previous comments, thats why I fish floating baits if I fish for Carp. Plus, I'am in no condition to cart 2 tons of tackle around! and unfortunately a 'twenty' is devalued to a great degree in my mind these days. Mind you if you can tell me of double figure true 'wildies' different story!.

John & yourself have an interesting points, what is the true relationship in the lead weight - size of fish - Rod characteristics - possibility of damage ?.

Carp Angler made an excellent point about unhooking procedure but theres whole new thread just in that!.

Perhaps modern end rigs, hooks etc are just too efficent at what there are intended to do and we need to accept a percentage of fish not hooked as a justifable downside?.

 

[Carp Angler]

I know of a water that totally disproves Robs theory.
Apart from one gravel plateux, all the fishing is to the tree line and it's all hook and hold snag/margin fishing.
The fishery has a barbless hooks only rule, so there are no unhooking problems.
Without exception, all regulars fish with 3lb+ rods and 15lb+ mono or 30lb+ braid mainline.
(I'm not saying wether I agree or disagree with this, I'm just stating what gear others use)

Because of the near fanatical reverence the owner places on the fish, all the carp are treated as though they are his own children.
(this has to be seen to be believed)
Almost all the carp show absolutely no damage to their mouths whatsoever.

I believe that internal mouth skidding and slipping of the hook is down to the pattern used.
The worst culprits being Super Specialists.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Rik, interesting one that. Believe me, I am far from an expert on this topic, but I do believe that some waters produce hard mouthed fish, and others produce soft mouthed fish. Nip down to Catch 22 in Norfolk. The fish there are of Dutch origin in the main lake, and there mouths are unbelievably soft. Hook pulls are common etc.

Another water I fished in Essex had fish where it was not unusual to have the hook point not even past the barb...and it would be a real struggle to remove a hook sometimes. This was a gravel pit.

I fully appreciate what your are saying though, and like I said before, I am not in a position to prove or disprove anything.

A certain Mr. Clay may back me up on this point though...when fishing for large trout with a fast action fly rod, its easy to lose a hook hold....far easier than with a soft rod.

Ray...I can put u on a water with TRUE double figure wildies, up to about 14 pounds. Trouble is, its up here in Scotland!!!

 

[Sandra Wood]

Glad this topic has been brought up the pool i fish now for the last 9months is full of carp with very small mouths..how they feed i dont know you have been talking about hooks doing the damage ..could it be possible for the line thats attached to the hook and the small amount that rubs against the mouth if the hook is inside the mouth and not on the lip...therefore cutting mouth ...this small amount of line could be covered with some transparent cover..(understand) what you think?

 

[Sandra Wood]

Glad this topic has been brought up the pool i fish now for the last 9months is full of carp with very small mouths..how they feed i dont know you have been talking about hooks doing the damage ..could it be possible for the line thats attached to the hook and the small amount that rubs against the mouth if the hook is inside the mouth and not on the lip...therefore cutting mouth ...this small amount of line could be covered with some transparent cover..(understand) what you think?

 

[Sandra Wood]

whoops ...still getting used to it

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Hi Sandra. I have always been a bit cautious when using multistrand as this seems to slice through most things. I cant say i have had a problem though. I have seen a damaged mouth caused by someone using a braid that was ment for a main line..i think it was whiplash...that is a fine, abrasive braid..nothing like the braids sold purely for hooklengths which appear soft and thick. I dont think mono does any damage...or else we would see damaged tench, bream etc...and it would have been an ongoing probplem going back a long time.

 

[Ray Bewick]

Carp Angler - SS were used in both set ups only difference being lead weight and TC of rod. This was observed on a single water only, as I was never a carp specialist & would leave it to those that are to evaluate my comments.

Rob - the soft mouth theory as been put forward before has it not?, similar to the big mouth small mouth eels idea in that certain fish are geneticaly adept at feeding certain ways. Mind you, I would have thought regular rooting about if gravel would mean that a tough lip strain would be increasingly succesful in certain waters?.