Is it possible for a carp outrun a baitrunner?

[Tee-Cee]

Had a situation yesterday that still has me baffled...

I went fishing for wild carp yesterday(for a short spell)on a small pit with fish up to double figures.The swim was one I've fished many times before with 3/4' of water.
My set-up was an 11' rod with a Shimano Baitrunner on a simple pod(very hard bank)with just enough weight to underarm cast 25' or so.Baits were hair-rigged.

The actual swim(under an overhanging tree) meant I had to fish with the rod parellel to the bank so most of the rod was within the bank area and only the tip over the water(hope thats clear!).

The first fish(as is always the case in this swim)caused the baitrunner to start...a gentle sweep of the rod hooked the fish and a 6lb fish was landed without a problem.

Some twenty minutes later the baitrunner sounded again-only this time the rod shot forward almost immediately(before I could react!)some 2/3',then pulled the reel over the front rest and continued to move forward!
I,coming out from under the umbrella(it was hissing down!!) had to dive/fall forward to grab the end of the rod which was only possible because the reel had jammed up against a tuft of grass and this stopped the rod moving any further.
The strange part is that the baitrunner,even as I grabbed the rod was still going strong and I eventually landed a 7lb+ fish in perfect condition.

Later,after some tea I reflected on the situation and although I checked the reel line to see if a double loop had formed(which could cause the rod to move forward)I could find no reason why it happened and apart from anything else the baitrunner allowed line to leave the reel the whole time!!
The only thing I did recall was that the baitrunner seemed to pick up speed in those first few fractions of a second after the initial take-it sounded much faster than normal and this(as you can see from the title of this Thread)made me wonder if a really fast moving fish could mean the the line could not leave the reel quick enough to keep up with its rush!!

What I do know,is had I been fishing with the rod straight out in front of me it would've disappeared into the depths,never to be seen again.....a lesson for the future!

If I'd been unattentive I could understand it but I was sitting with the rod next to my hand and still it happened before I could move!!

I can only think the fish picked up the bait and scooted off at speed ...............but any other offers as to why would be welcome!!(a possible mathmatical formulae....ie speed of fish is not equal to speed of baitrunner???)


ps The next fish(5lb)was straight forward...................

As The Indifferent Crucian would say.....Stupid Baitrunner!!.........'stupid boy'is just too much to contemplate!!

pps Last year 3 people lost rods on this water but in every case the had moved away from the rod with the pick-up closed...........

 

[richoxon]

Had a barbel do that to me once, i think it stopped and the free spool kept spinning for a second or two giving out line and when it took off again it caused some sort of snag around the bailarm.

 

[quickcedo]

This would be my slant on it too. If the baitrunner was set too loose it can allow an overrun which can cause line to catch somewhere and although the reel would still give line it would be under enough tention to pull the rod. Once you had gained control this may not have been obvious.
In my opinion it is impossible for anything to pull line faster than the reel can revolve. Unless it jammed.

 

[Tee-Cee]

..I see what you're saying Mark-perhaps the line did catch somewhere and then release before I reached the rod....because I didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.....

In the past I've had rods(sort of) rattle in the rod rest due to fish taking line at speed BUT the rod has never moved forward more than 2/3" as happened in this case.

You can understand how this sort of thing can shake your confidence(and belief in the set-up).....it does,however make one more aware of checking the arrangement and not assuming it to free from human error-sort of a wake-up call!!

 

[quickcedo]

I had to dive into 16ft of water on the w. avon about 6 weeks ago to save a rod which did exactly the same thing only I didn't stop it in time. It must have been funny to watch because it was like a scene out of "a river runs through it". There I was swimming back to the bank holding the rod high with a very angry Barbel still attatched (I did loose it though, as I was getting out). It was only then I realised how STUPID I had been. I was fishing alone so no help. I was fully clothed with my wallet and phone in my pocket. Oh well live and learn.

 

[tigger]

Sounds like the baitrunner was set to tight to me.

 

[tortoise100]

I have nearly lost my rod twice along the same lines had the rod shoot of the rear grip rest and bounce against the bite alarm with the fish screaming off .
On one occasion the resulting fish was far larger than anything that was supposed to be in the lake my friends thought I was snagged it put such a bend in the rod unfortunately it got off before we got to see it .

This experience has not stopped me experimenting with the settings of my bait runners all the time in the quest for more fish and less dropped runs.

I now have those very tight rubber rear rod grips and have never come close to that problem again.

 

[quickcedo]

Mr Froggy what make rear rests do you use as all the one's I've tried so far gradually get looser until they are no use at all.

 

[tigger]

Mr Froggy what make rear rests do you use as all the one's I've tried so far gradually get looser until they are no use at all.

The John Roberts rubber/plastic ones are good and mine are still good after 3yrs.

 

[Paul H]

I have seen my rods jump on a violent take with carp, zander and barbel but never shoot off like that with the baitrunner set. I think there must have been a loop of line somewhere, maybe around the top ring at the tip somehow.

 

[quickcedo]

Cheers Tigger, I will check those out. Not sure which ones I have, but I'm sure they are a "named" brand and worse than useless!!

 

[tigger]

Cheers Tigger, I will check those out. Not sure which ones I have, but I'm sure they are a "named" brand and worse than useless!!

These are the one's...


JOHN ROBERTS BUTT GRIPS BACK REST Carp Barbel Fishing on eBay (end time 03-Oct-10 14:22:25 BST)

I even use them fishing with my rods up in the air and the rods won't slip down. They are good and they haven't marked the corks or blanks on my rods which some rests do.

 

[noknot]

Rubber butt grips are a must, I've used John's grips for years ever since he gave me a set to try out! Ensure everything is set up correctly (no line round the tip ect) and test the B/R setting after every cast! Last point, is to always point the rod in the direction of the rig/bait, two reasons for this, firstly you are not creating accute angles on the line, this will detract on your bite indication, and secondly, on a savage fast take the rod could well be pulled off the front rest/alarm!

NK.

 

[Tee-Cee]

tigger.......the Baitrunner was set to its lowest setting(in this mode,as you know,the line leaves the reel very easily!)and,as I say above,line was being pulled from the reel the whole time......

Going back to the rate at which line can leave the reel(see Mark Todd's first post above).....
I'm not too sure the reel CAN keep up with the speed of the fish moving away.If the bale arm was open,then yes,the line would just fall off the spool BUT the bale is CLOSED(obviously)when using the Baitrunner so I'm wondering if the small amount of resistance offered by the Baitrunner(the line has to run over the bale arm wheel)could mean the line cannot leave the spool quickly enough.............this is me'thinking aloud'and only offered as a possibility-not fact!!

I agree the probable cause is something I failed to see at the time and human error is the most likely reason BUT I know for sure the Baitrunner was definitely running THE WHOLE TIME-thats what I don't understand!!

Yesterday I spent time checking the reel thoroughly including pulling line from the spool via the Baitrunner and it worked fine.....and its a pity someone with physics knowledge cannot say if 'speed of carp does not equal line leaving the spool'........I did read many years ago(I think in an article by **** Walker)that carp can travel at speeds of up to 40' per second and if this is true why shouldn't a Baitrunner fail to keep up???

tigger...the Roberts rear rod rest sounds like a good product-he always produced good stuff-so I will have a look at them-thanks for that!

Thanks to all for posting!!

ps noknot.....agree 100% with the rod pointing absolutely direct to the bait position-I even make minor adjustments to the pod position to ensure they are all as straight as possible!In this case the small amount of clear water(into which I cast)means the bait cannot help but be 'in line' with the rod......

 

[Ian Gemson]

With the free spool set to the lowest possible friction setting it is possible for the spool to over run slightly ( this is caused my mass moment of inertia ) and thus cause mini tangles. The line could also have been bedded into the spool again not allowing free exit of the line from the spool. There are many possible causes without being there and witnessing the whole event it is very difficult to pin point the exact cause. But I would suggest setting the spool with a little more tension to minimize the potential spool over run issues. Check the free spool operation and the line lay (bedding) on the spool. make sure your rod is well away from anything that could trap or hinder the line as it leaves the rod. Finally if it does it again get a new reel. Or tie a rope to the spool and anchor the rope to the ground with a stake LOL.

 

[Tee-Cee]

Ian...I must admit I hadn't thought of that....I will try a slightly higher tension tomorrow......

As I said previously,this was a one-off happening in a swim I've fished many,many times so whatever it was human error must've played a big part....

At the end of the day it does make one a little more wary and stop complacency creeping in-never a bad thing!!

Thanks for that!

ps regards the stake-perhaps thats why some people carry a hammer with them!!!

 

[Rodney Wrestt]

This could be caused by so many things but not limited to the reel, a piece of weed stuck or dried around the line and a guide coming off when it gets wet again? The line bedding in is another prime suspect.

 

[gentle]

Id opt for Line bedding too. Ive seen it a couple of times and had it happen on the early shimano baitrunners. It tends to happen more with thinner line 8lb stuff. It tends to be worse if you have just played a fish and during retreive there are varying pressures affecting the line lay causing a line to become embedded under an earlier lay usually at the first lift when you hook into the fish.

The only way I found to deal with this was to set the clutch lighter and use my finger to control release and try not to 'Wind down' on retreive which causes the underlay to happen.

Low stretch lilne may help too.

 

[Fred Blake]

When I first moved from using the old open bale arm technique to a baitrunner, I naturally set it as loose as possible, believing I needed to minimise resistance. I never lost a rod, but had a few close shaves where the line doubled under itself due to slight overruns on a fast fish. Then the penny dropped; I'm using a bolt rig, so rather than resistance causing the fish to drop the bait (which it can't once hooked) the extra drag actually helps keep the hookhold in place until I pick the rod up. Furthermore, I can see no advantage in allowing a hooked carp to get more line than absolutely necessary; if fishing tight to snags you wouldn't set the baitrunner loose, so why do it in open water?

Nowadays I've dispensed with baitrunners completely and use front-drag reels with the clutch set to just give line before the rod is pulled from the rests/pod. I use very stiff butt grips which anchor the rod to the back rests or pod, and extended ears on the alarms to prevent a sideways pull making the rod jump off the front. Since adopting this tactic I've had plenty of mid-upper twenty pounders which only gave a couple of bleeps as the indicator tightened. A carp can't get up any speed or momentum if it's not allowed to.

 

[jcp01]

If the fish was moving at top speed when the line to the reel snapped tight then this could easily happen if the spool was set at somewhat less than completely free running.

Set the rods up on the pod, attach the line to your pet dogs collar and then chuck a ball past the rod tops and see what happens...