NO Leader

[alsoran]

Hmmm! A question for you guys that fish waters where leaders are banned.
How do you safely cast in excess of 100yds with no leader?? As I was always led to believe and still am that it should be 10lb leader for each ounce of lead. So a 3 ounce lead needs a 30lb leader to be safe.

I guess some of these clubs will be facing lawsuits when crack off's happen and someone gets hit or even worse killed.

 

[sam vimes]

In thirty years I have rarely use a leader. Whilst for much of that time I have rarely used a lead in excess of 2oz, I have used 2.5 and 3oz leads quite frequently in the last five years or so. Using 12 and 15lb line, I don't recall suffering a crack off.

If you are going to see regular crack offs, it's by those striving for absolute maximum distances with low diameter, low breaking strain, mainlines. Give a 3oz+ lead a big heave ho on 10lb (or less) mainline and you are inviting trouble and should probably consider using a leader. Increase the mainline, reduce the weight of the lead, moderate the distance you are striving for, or alter your casting style, and the chances of suffering a crack off are reduced.

Leaders are not an absolute necessity, even when trying to chuck as far as possible.

I would very much doubt that the owners of any water that banned leaders would face a law suit. Crack offs can still happen when leaders are used. If a crack off does occur, leader or not, the responsibility for any consequences are down to the person concerned, not the owner of the water.

 

[alsoran]

In thirty years I have rarely use a leader. Whilst for much of that time I have rarely used a lead in excess of 2oz, I have used 2.5 and 3oz leads quite frequently in the last five years or so. Using 12 and 15lb line, I don't recall suffering a crack off.

If you are going to see regular crack offs, it's by those striving for absolute maximum distances with low diameter, low breaking strain, mainlines. Give a 3oz+ lead a big heave ho on 10lb (or less) mainline and you are inviting trouble and should probably consider using a leader. Increase the mainline, reduce the weight of the lead, moderate the distance you are striving for, or alter your casting style, and the chances of suffering a crack off are reduced.

Leaders are not an absolute necessity, even when trying to chuck as far as possible.

I would very much doubt that the owners of any water that banned leaders would face a law suit. Crack offs can still happen when leaders are used. If a crack off does occur, leader or not, the responsibility for any consequences are down to the person concerned, not the owner of the water.

Hi Sam, perhaps fishing at extreme range is what is required to catch fish, yes I know not always and I would be the first to say so. So reducing the weight and stronger thicker line isn't the best way forward.
If you changed the casting style, I presume you to mean going from the standard over head thump to a pendulum type of cast, sorry mate but that will just put even more strain on the line as the forces created are more than with the 'thump'. So that choice is getting even more dangerous..
I don't know why you think leaders are not needed even when going for the maximum?? This is against what ALL the casting forums would say. Check out WorldSeafishing Just because it's a sea fishing forum don't be put off as casting is casting.

As for the 'club' not being liable. if the club banned leaders and there was an accident because someone couldn't use one that wanted to. The rules are dangerous and imo put the club at fault. Just because a club say so doesn't make it the right thing to do..

 

[sam vimes]

Hi Sam, perhaps fishing at extreme range is what is required to catch fish, yes I know not always and I would be the first to say so. So reducing the weight and stronger thicker line isn't the best way forward.
If you changed the casting style, I presume you to mean going from the standard over head thump to a pendulum type of cast, sorry mate but that will just put even more strain on the line as the forces created are more than with the 'thump'. So that choice is getting even more dangerous..
I don't know why you think leaders are not needed even when going for the maximum?? This is against what ALL the casting forums would say. Check out WorldSeafishing Just because it's a sea fishing forum don't be put off as casting is casting.

As for the 'club' not being liable. if the club banned leaders and there was an accident because someone couldn't use one that wanted to. The rules are dangerous and imo put the club at fault. Just because a club say so doesn't make it the right thing to do..

I don't dispute the full mechanics of the thing. I don't dispute the fact that sometimes fish are at range. When I mentioned casting style I wasn't meaning changing to a new one. Some folks cast quite differently in essentially the same style. Some have very violent casting styles, others much smoother. Quite a few I've encountered, the ones most likely to suffer crack offs, put far too much brute force into a cast yet often attain less distance for it.

However, if an angler reduces the diameter of the line he's using and increases the weight of the lead he's chucking, regardless of using a leader or not, he's responsible for any mishaps he has. He'd be responsible even if he were using a 100lb leader and 20lb mainline, though the risk would undoubtedly be reduced. The angler concerned is responsible for their own actions. I seriously doubt that the club/syndicate/owner of the fishery would have any liability whatsoever. A similar kind of scenario exists when it comes to waters with powerlines or when fishing in a thunderstorm. No one will stop you, but the responsibility for your actions rests with you.

Most waters/clubs/syndicates will have a disclaimer of some description. Whether anyone bothers to read it or not is immaterial. Here's an example of a real one from a club. I know full well that most members won't even be aware of it. Would it hold up in a court? I don't know for sure, but I rather suspect it would. After all, you have effectively agreed to the conditions by accepting membership or paying for a day ticket.

"It is recommended that all anglers should wear head and eye protection at all times, and a flotation device as appropriate. Anglers should fish with a companion when possible. Anglers should leave details of their planned itinerary and time of return with someone. The society accepts no liability for any injury or damage that anglers suffer or cause. It is a condition of permission to fish that the angler accept liability for any injury or damage to themselves, others or property. It is a condition of permission to fish that
the angler arrange suitable insurance against injury and/or damage to themselves, others and property."

Do a google search for "Anglers at ther own risk" and marvel at the number of hits from clubs and fisheries up and down the land. As so many of them are businesses, I find it hard to believe that their lawyers would let them waste their time with disclaimers that had no legal basis.

 

[alsoran]

Sam, thicker line heavier weight is just plain asking for trouble, isn't it??

As for the individual bye laws I know where you are going with this, but my point is that the 'accident' occurred because of the rules. Not because the rules are being broken.

Angler 'A' cracks off and causes serious injury to angler 'B' or even member of the public. No club rules have been broken. But, 'A' and 'B' can prove that it was because of the rules eg No Leader, that the accident happened.

You don't have to look to hard to find out that leaders are a must..

It is because of Health and Safety, that leaders are a must if you wanted to take part in any casting club meetings. Or even have casting lessons.

 

[bullet]

Just out of interest, what is the perceived wisdom to not using a leader?
Logic suggests that thicker line near the hook might actually be better for fish welfare, the larger diameter line being less likely to cut into the fish whilst playing?

 

[sam vimes]

Sam, thicker line heavier weight is just plain asking for trouble, isn't it??

As for the individual bye laws I know where you are going with this, but my point is that the 'accident' occurred because of the rules. Not because the rules are being broken.

Angler 'A' cracks off and causes serious injury to angler 'B' or even member of the public. No club rules have been broken. But, 'A' and 'B' can prove that it was because of the rules eg No Leader, that the accident happened.

You don't have to look to hard to find out that leaders are a must..

It is because of Health and Safety, that leaders are a must if you wanted to take part in any casting club meetings. Or even have casting lessons.

I'm not disputing anything to do with the mechanics of casting or the use of leaders when casting for the horizon. I just doubt the assertion that a club/syndicate/water would be held accountable for any accident, whether they allow leaders or not. It's up to the individual to minimize the risks. If they can't fish safely within any rules imposed, then it's up to them to find an alternate safe way of doing what they feel necessary (bait boats?) or stop what they are doing.

Just out of interest, what is the perceived wisdom to not using a leader?
Logic suggests that thicker line near the hook might actually be better for fish welfare, the larger diameter line being less likely to cut into the fish whilst playing?

That element of danger can be minimized easily by using rig tubing of some kind. However, the reason given for most places banning leaders is for fish safety, mainly down to misuse causing a very real danger of fish ending up tethered.

 

[aebitim]

Unless you are using extended arc casting with a stiffy rod 15lb straight through isnt going to give you a problem with a 3 oz lead, 20lb is well up for 4 oz, suspect the leader thing has been introduced because tapered leaders have become popular because you can cast further with them, once you hook a decent fish it might be as well to give some thought to actualy landing it.

 

[law]

I fish at 100-120 yards and don't use a leader.
I use Pro Clear in the equivalent of 15lb and have never suffered a crack off.

 

[thecrow]

If you have the correct rods/reels and technique well over 100yds is possible on 15lb mono without a leader.

If the fishery rules state "no leaders" and an angler injures another through cracking off trying to gain extra yards knowing there are anglers on the opposite bank it is the angler that is to blame as he has failed to show a duty of care towards others on the fishery.

 

[binka]

I might just be being simple here but if you were on a water where fishing at long range was required yet a cracked off lead could still reach an angler on the opposite bank would it not just be easier to fish from the other side and not have to cast so far in the first place?

How far beyond casting distance can a cracked off lead travel, is this injury scenario realistic?

Edit: Just to add to that, if you were casting 130 yards and there was an angler opposite then the water would have to be at least 260 yards wide or you would be crossing over and fishing in the other anglers swim.

I could see a cracked off lead travelling another sixty or seventy yards but not 130 yards or more, and that’s on the tightest scenario of you casting to the maximum halfway point.

I may well be wrong though???

 

[sam vimes]

How far beyond casting distance can a cracked off lead travel, is this injury scenario realistic?

When unhindered by still being attached to a reel line, a lead can travel an awful lot further than the angler could hope to cast the full rig. Is it a realistic scenario? I guess it rather depends on how responsible the angler concerned might be.

 

[thecrow]

When a crack off occurs the "free" lead will go a long long way, not always in the direction that the angler was intending to cast to, the last crack off I had was years ago on a very large Dutch water, I never saw where the lead landed, fortunately there were no other anglers on the water other than me and 2 friends.

I don't know how fast a lead attached to mono travels at when cast but on a narrowish water (80yds approx.) a friend overcast and couldn't pull the lead out to retrieve it, on going round to the other bank he had to dig the lead out, he reckoned it was a foot deep.

 

[binka]

the last crack off I had was years ago on a very large Dutch water, I never saw where the lead landed,

I hope you were nowhere near the Belgian border crow, I can't handle the image of the great Marcel Van Den Eynde having to dive head first for cover against the strange backdrop of a decreasing pitch whistling sound

If it's any consolation mine was a couple of seasons ago on the Trent and took the top two inches of a hollow carbon quivertip with it mg:

 

[cattyfatty]

the most important thing here is fish safety.
the crow got it in one change you rods & reels to suit your style off fishing.
the rules on lakes are there for a reason.

 

[law]

The other option of course is to use a bait boat if they are allowed.

 

[alsoran]

Crack off's can go in excess of 350yrds in any direction, while I know guys fish at 100/130 yrds with 15lb mono and 3 or 3.5lb tc rods with no problems, it doesn't mean it's safe does it?? Not when every casting instructor/club in the country says a leader is a must.

As to why I think the club would be responsible, they are saying in there rules that that you have to do something that goes against everything anyone involved with casting tells you from a Health and Safety point of view. Problem is that the average course angling club probably isn't even aware of the dangers, or even worse doesn't care.

 

[thecrow]

I hope you were nowhere near the Belgian border crow, I can't handle the image of the great Marcel Van Den Eynde having to dive head first for cover against the strange backdrop of a decreasing pitch whistling sound

If it's any consolation mine was a couple of seasons ago on the Trent and took the top two inches of a hollow carbon quivertip with it mg:

No it was the other end at Niewkoop plass, a big water that at the time held some very big fish, it was an interesting trip as my holdall slid off the roof rack while the car was moving grinding half of a male ferrule away on one of my armalites.

 

[cattyfatty]

goes against everything anyone involved with casting tells you from a Health and Safety point of view.

the health and safety is the fish foremost you have not once said this
you are responsible for your actions on the lake taking into account who around you .
every body knows there limits of there gear and not to push it to the limits.

Problem is that the average course angling club probably isn't even aware of the dangers, or even worse doesn't care.

that's a load off bull i you ask me , why do they make rules just for a fun.
ok then i will give you an example someone got a fish on then the fish snags up in the weed and no way its coming out off there , keep trying on line then goes ping
then the carp is trailing 18ft plus leader with rig items and hooklink.90% is lead clip setup is used
so tell me how a 30lb leader knot can pas through a lead clip hole , might have rubber lead clips sleeve on to get through.
right same problem , but with just mainline through to the lead clip set up.
the line goes ping might be a couple of meters , most will be just on the knot on the lead clip, hooklink will pull away from the lead clip set just trailing hooklink , swivel and a bit off line leaving the lead clip and leads on the lake bed .
that's why leader's are banned from angling club who see the benefits from this style of course fishing.

 

[aebitim]

Crack off's can go in excess of 350yrds in any direction, while I know guys fish at 100/130 yrds with 15lb mono and 3 or 3.5lb tc rods with no problems, it doesn't mean it's safe does it?? Not when every casting instructor/club in the country says a leader is a must.

As to why I think the club would be responsible, they are saying in there rules that that you have to do something that goes against everything anyone involved with casting tells you from a Health and Safety point of view. Problem is that the average course angling club probably isn't even aware of the dangers, or even worse doesn't care.

You have a point, however using a shock leader isnt going to stop a crack off if something goes wrong [one of the most common oopsies is a tangle on the leader knot, another is the wire pulling out the lead], the point of a shock leader is to allow the caster to put more energy into the lead to make it go further, thus increasing the speed of a cracked off lead increasing the distance/danger aspect. I would suspect the ban is more to do with shockleaders being left in the water when anglers have to pull for a break and the shockleader knot is the weak point.