Mouth Damage

[wanderer]

I posed this question to another forum with some interesting theories, so now i will throw it open to my pals on here and see what you come up with. On a heavily stocked local commercial, although this problem is not restricted to this type of venue, a number of anglers have been complaining about serious mouth damage to fish. So what is the main culprit, all methods from bottom bolts and running rigs, method feeder and surface fishing are employed at various times of the year, some of the striking is way over the top and there is a barbless rule, so guys what do you reckon and how do we avoid this.

 

[peter crabtree]

http://www.fishingmagic.com/forums/coarse-fishing/355447-beaten-up-carp.html

 

[tigger]

Heavy leads, large hooks (especially barbless), heavy test curve rods and being caught over and over will all contribute to mouth damage to fish....pretty obvious really.

 

[wanderer]

Yep, read the link Peter many thanks, this is a big problem and all input gratefully accepted whether lessons will be learned or fish abused as a commodity whatever the cost is up to us. The bird brigade got lead shot banned, food for thought.

---------- Post added at 05:59 ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 ----------

Heavy leads, large hooks (especially barbless), heavy test curve rods and being caught over and over will all contribute to mouth damage to fish....pretty obvious really.

Somebody on the other website suggested small hooks would solve the problem, you see how divded opininon is.

 

[Lord Paul of Sheffield]

I've seen many angler fishing smallish lakes/ponds that hold carp to low 20's at best fishing with gear that you could land a 30lb carp on - then when they hook a 8lb carp their gear is overgunned and I believe this could lead to mouth damage.

For the life of me when you are catching mostly carp in the 8-15lb range why you need size 6 and 4 hooks heavy leads and 15lb BS line is beyond me

 

[chub_on_the_block]

This topic has been discussed at length on here several times over recent years. I was trying to find a link to one or more of the other threads, but failed. It is an important issue and it is right to raise it. It would be nice to put links to other threads so that a comprehensive account can be found easily. There has been a lot of informed input on here about this issue over the years.

 

[dann]

It's such a shame. There is a local lake near me that is terrible for it, I won't go back.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

It puts me off carp fishing in any pressurised water. I would be devastated if I caught a new PB but it had grotesque mouth damage - it would really spoil it. On some waters, that is all you could find. I dont understand the attraction at all.

The best carp i have ever seen was an 8Iber that a mate caught from a small pond in a wood. It was a pristine, lean fish. Absolutely stunning. Way nicer to behold than many other better prized specimens.

 

[barbelboi]

That's true Dave, some of the best lookers I've seen have been 'ferals' from farm ponds that are never going to quite reach double figures................

 

[robtherake]

I see a lot of complaints (in the discussions we've had) about overgunned carp anglers but few about pole anglers skulldragging fish to net with ultra-strong poles and 20+ elastics. The strong but fine diameter lines must surely cut like cheesewire.

 

[maggot_dangler]

I see a lot of complaints (in the discussions we've had) about overgunned carp anglers but few about pole anglers skulldragging fish to net with ultra-strong poles and 20+ elastics. The strong but fine diameter lines must surely cut like cheesewire.

But it is the hooks that do the damage not the line unless you are lasooing you fish


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[nocturnus anglius]

I love the way anglers love to blame a singular item or method, your all kind of wrong but right.
Damage to fishes mouth is a Bi Product of what we do, by that I mean, we all need a hook to take hold somewhere in the mouth, and as there's no way of predicting where that hook is going to take hold, we are all guilty of inadvertent damage.
Anglers, of course would never admit this, but in truth how can we guarantee we don't cause damage.
Think about all those lost fish we've had, had the hook taken hold properly, I doubt it, that why we lost fish.
Whether it's hooked in the, scissors, bottom lip or top lip, some times the inevitable happens and hook straightens or scrapes out.
You can blame barbed/barbless, size, rod tc, method or what ever you like, in truth it's all of these things.
A lot is caused by hook extraction I must admit, and as that's the only aspect we can control I'd say all day tickets should implement a barbless rule as these are where beginners usually start their fishing lives.

 

[thecrow]

I love the way anglers love to blame a singular item or method, your all kind of wrong but right.
Damage to fishes mouth is a Bi Product of what we do, by that I mean, we all need a hook to take hold somewhere in the mouth, and as there's no way of predicting where that hook is going to take hold, we are all guilty of inadvertent damage.
Anglers, of course would never admit this, but in truth how can we guarantee we don't cause damage.
Think about all those lost fish we've had, had the hook taken hold properly, I doubt it, that why we lost fish.
Whether it's hooked in the, scissors, bottom lip or top lip, some times the inevitable happens and hook straightens or scrapes out.
You can blame barbed/barbless, size, rod tc, method or what ever you like, in truth it's all of these things.
A lot is caused by hook extraction I must admit, and as that's the only aspect we can control I'd say all day tickets should implement a barbless rule as these are where beginners usually start their fishing lives.

Agree with all of the above apart from the last bit about barbless hooks, lots of caring fisheries have banned barbless hooks.

In my opinion micro barb are the way to go, I started using them this season after the manufacturer of my usual barbed pattern stopped making them, I was very suspicious of whether they would hold as well as a barbed, they do and are very easy to remove.

 

[Ray Roberts]

I think the barbed v barbless is a bit of a red herring. The care taken by the individual is what really matters.

 

[wanderer]

I think the barbed v barbless is a bit of a red herring. The care taken by the individual is what really matters.

Unfortunately, that begins only after the fish has been landed, we need to think about the damage prior to this moment if we stand any chance of dealing with this.

 

[Ray Roberts]

Unfortunately, that begins only after the fish has been landed, we need to think about the damage prior to this moment if we stand any chance of dealing with this.

Not letting the line go slack when using barbless or playing the fish excessively hard on a high test curve rod. Taking care when unhooking, etc. They are all things controlled by the individual. Also bad practices are not always carried out by novices but like littering, they are often carried out by people who should really know better.

 

[barbelboi]

Unfortunately, that begins only after the fish has been landed, we need to think about the damage prior to this moment if we stand any chance of dealing with this.

I don't think that's always the case Steve, as I posted on another thread - sometimes playing a fish too softly can be as lethal as playing it too hard. A carp is trying to get rid of the hook from the moment it feels it, and they can become quite good at getting rid of it....

 

[sam vimes]

Mouth damage can be difficult to pin down. It seems intuitive to think that overly heavy gear will be a prime culprit. However, I've seen waters, with relatively small fish, where reasonably heavy kit is the norm, where the fish seem to suffer very little in the way of mouth damage. I've seen other waters, where out and out carp tactics are totally banned and hook sizes and line strengths are restricted, yet the fish have mouths ripped to shreds.

I've also seen tiny lipless dace, skimmers, roach and rudd on both rivers and stillwaters. Such fish can't possibly be blamed on carpers or their overly heavy methods. We are talking too small to get even sweetcorn in their mouths.

I'm afraid that the majority of the blame falls squarely at bad angling, inexperience and dismal unhooking techniques. It always amazes me to encounter anglers that carry no form of unhooking aid (forceps/disgorgers). I've seen it on more than the odd occasion where some seem to think that pulling is a bona fide unhooking method. Sadly, not all of the culprits have the excuse of being young and daft.

Skilled anglers can use very heavy kit and cause no damage whatsoever. Just because the kit may be capable of winching smaller fish in, doesn't automatically mean that they do. It's wrong to lay all the blame for fish damage at the feet of inanimate equipment. It's invariably the loose nut on the end of the rod that's the problem.

 

[robtherake]

A commercial near me holds a stock of fish with the worst mouth damage I've ever seen. At least 90% of anglers are fishing the pole (these are pleasure lakes I'm talking about, not the match complex) another few percent are float or feeder anglers, with anglers using carp gear making up just a couple of percent at most. The most prevalent type of damage is a rearward cut severing the side of the mouth - both sides on many - which heals up to leave the mostly mid-single fish with a hole as small as a 5p piece to eat through: the poor bu99ers must almost be reduced to filter-feeding on mush. I'm no fan of the carp cult, which encourages unprepared novices to grapple with powerful fish from the outset, both on and off the bank, but in the above situation I fail to see that they can be held solely responsible. I might add that I witnessed one complete a$$hole holding a mid-double mirror (caught on pole-fished bread on the surface and in the net inside two minutes) at head height for his equally drunken pals on the far bank to admire, when the inevitable happened and it flapped out of his hands and dropped six feet to the bone dry and iron-hard bank with a sickening slap. Whether it survived I don't know. I packed up there and then, delivered a message to the equally pi$$ed-up staff in the restaurant and haven't been back.

It typifies the absence of fish care at these places, where novices catch big fish from the off and have to learn to deal with them without having had any form of angling apprenticeship. They also seem to attract a boorish element who are much at odds with the sport's etiquette and lack any kind of empathy for their catch. I'm reluctant to name this particular place, but it's regularly advertised as one of the North's leading coarse fisheries. Maybe it was, once upon a time.

 

[wanderer]

HERE, HERE, ban commercials before somebody else does.