Fluorocarbon line when surface fishing

[keora]

I've bought some spools of Drennan Supplex fluorocarbon line - it's sold in 50 metre spools so obviously it's designed for use as a hook length.

I tried the line out on a local commercial fishery holding plenty of carp. I surface fished with floating crust and a brand of floating pellet, can't remember the name.

Although fluorocarbon line is supposed to be less visible underwater, it didn't seem to be less conspicuous to the carp. I could often see them approach to within a few inches of the bait, then swim away without taking the bait.

I tried various combinations. The reel line was Drennan Supplex copolymer, 10lb breaking strain, diameter 0.26 mm, to this I added 10lb Drennan fluorocarbon (0.30 mm dia and very stiff), then 8lb Drennan fluorocarbon (0.25 mm). Later in the day I ended up just fishing with the reel line straight through to the hook, as the fluorocarbon hook lengths didn't seem to be any better than the copolymer reel line.

I ended up with two small carp and lost a few in the dense reedbeds.

What do members think of fluorocarbon hook lengths for surface fishing?

I wonder if fluorocarbon is more effective when legering and float fishing.

 

[sam vimes]

Fluoro for surface fishing isn't necessarily the best idea. Fluoro has a greater density than water, so has a natural tendency to sink. Fluoro will float on the surface tension, but it'll try to sink through it. It may be this that's making the line more visible. There's also an interesting theory about the way fluoro refracts light. I've seen it doing a fair impression of a "light pipe" in bright sunlight. That could be a problem if replicated when fishing.

 

[Philip]

The ex editor of this site Graham Marsden used to recommend gently rubbing fluro with emery paper to remove the sheen for floater fishing as he was of the opinion it was the glare that put fish off.

For my own part I am not really a big fan of fluro. I use it for things like drop shotting and some lure fishing where there are not too many Pike but I think its suggested invisible properties are overrated and I think it’s a bit of a gimmick.

My opinion is maybe a little biased as I used it in its early days and it was terrible. Far too brittle and breakages used to occur for no apparent reason, even in the middle of what appeared to be a perfectly good bit of line. I hear some of the new brands are allot better but my confidence has been dented by the aforementioned experiences.

I accept that perhaps in certain light conditions at certain depths it may be slightly less visible than mono but then at others its more visible. Basically I don’t see allot of advantages over mono but I do see disadvantages. That’s why I don’t use it as hooklink for bait fishing and as a leader behind the lead although as Sam Vimes suggests it does sink readily, again I think its not all its made out to be.

One other point I would make…you mention about fish shying away from the bait as they approach it. I obviously don’t know for sure in your case but one thing I am 100% certain of, its not always the line that they see..its also the hook. I can think of several occasions when hiding the hook in the bait has turned fish shying away at the last second into confident takes without making any change to the hooklink.

 

[keora]

Thanks to both of you for your advice.

I first tried fluorocarbon line about 15 years ago. It was Berkley Vanish, marketed as a reel line (100 yd spools) and it was dreadful. The first and only time I used it I lost two good carp within a couple of hours of starting. I checked the breaking strain when I got home, it was supposed to be 8lb but it broke at 6.5lbs.

I imagine modern fluorocarbons are better. I know a very experienced angler who uses fluoro hook lengths most of the time

I think you're right about carp spotting the hook. I saw some of the carp get so near that the nose was touching the bait, so I imagine they were able to see and avoid the hook.

 

[103841]

My experience is limited but have done quite a lot of surface fishing, just about the only carp fishing I enjoy.

I fished the same swim within a few days, on one day the carp gulp down anything presented to them, using exactly the same rig days later they don't want to know. I've fished some waters where carp just don't take from the surface full stop. I feel this is more of a factor than what sort of line you choose.

 

[geoffmaynard]

We used to joke that Berkley Vanish was so named because you hook a fish - and it vanishes but that was before we realised that our knots had to change. You can't use a grinner knot on flurocarbon; a tucked bloodknot is fine though. Also flurocarbon sinks like a brick so why would anyone want to use it for surface fishing? The final damning evidence comes from Dr Paul Garner. In his Underwater Angling book he records the tests made comparing various reel lines - and fc did not really score highly. That said, I use it quite regularly but never for surface fishing.
Make sure that you only use a coated hook when surface fishing - the metallic taste of an uncoated hook is pretty obvious to a stillwater fish and this is probably far more important than a black curling object which trout regularly mistake for a nymph.

 

[keora]

I've been using a grinner knot when fishing with the Drennan fluorocarbon hook link line and haven't had any problems with the line breaking at below the expected breaking strain. However I'll try the tucked half blood knot you recommend.

When dry fly fishing I degrease the last 3ft of the leader so it sinks and supposedly makes it less visible to trout. I'd imagined that using fluorocarbon would be useful when carp fishing on the surface for the same reason.

I've been rereading Paul Garner's Underwater Angling and for surface fishing he recommends a low diameter hooklength - I assume he means copolymer rather than fluorocarbon.

I'll get some black coated hooks as you mentioned.

 

[Philip]

Also Palomar will work with basically every material. If I am ever in doubt I go to that.

 

[geoffmaynard]

I seem to remember a very good article by Dave Chilton in the FM archives about the right knot for the various materials we use. I'll see if I can find it.

Here y'go

https://www.fishingmagic.com/ultimate-knots/

 

[thecrow]

You can't use a grinner knot on flurocarbon

Its what I have always used on it and never had any problems with it breaking at the knot (or anywhere else) its possible that because I have never used it in lighter BS that after the knot is tied the line was still strong enough for what I was doing but it may have been the attention I gave to tying the knot, most knots weaken line somewhat.

---------- Post added at 08:33 ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 ----------

Although fluorocarbon line is supposed to be less visible underwater, it didn't seem to be less conspicuous to the carp. I could often see them approach to within a few inches of the bait, then swim away without taking the bait

That could have nothing at all to do with your hook length but more to do with how your hook bait was sitting in relation to any freebies you had introduced, fish can be very shy of anything that looks different to them from freebies that have no hook in them. You don't say what the hook/ bait end of your rig was.

 

[Tee-Cee]

I have done a fair bit of surface fishing with crust using straight forward mono and if I cannot fish close in (pretty much under the rod top) and keep the line off the water altogether, then I make sure the stiffish line comes into the crust from the top which (in most cases) means the line is off the water immediately adjacent to the crust as far as is possible. Not to say this always works, but IMHO having this 'clear' area around the crust has helped, if my catches are anything to go by!
Personally, I like to fish very close to lillies with the crust drawn close to them, again keeping line off the water and this works fine (providing you watch the crust at all times!) or with the line vertical under the rod top with bail arm open, but this means any movement by the angler and.........

Mr Walker suggested this a good method for patrolling margin carp when the crust could be lowered onto the water as fish approached, thus avoiding small fish. Exciting fishing to be sure!

Other than that, I use anchored crust close to trees where I can swing the bomb out, let it sink and then release the line allowing the crust to float to the surface (2/3" sq chunks) and then letting it just sit. I use braid for the last foot or so.....
If fish swirl at the crust it will move across the surface but eventually settle back, but one is always in contact with the crust, if you get my drift.
I've had upper double mirrors seemingly charge across the surface on one or two occasions and smash into the crust, almost if they had become frustrated with failure to suck the crust in..
It goes without saying that carp on the surface are happier when close to overhead cover.

Crust fishing looks simple and it is to some extent, but the finer detail around presentation needs thought (IMHO) What it is not, is whacking a lump of bread onto a hook and lobbing it out!!

 

[geoffmaynard]

Its what I have always used on it and never had any problems with it breaking at the knot (or anywhere else) its possible that because I have never used it in lighter BS that after the knot is tied the line was still strong enough for what I was doing but it may have been the attention I gave to tying the knot, most knots weaken line somewhat.

I suggest you read the article I linked to - and/or do some tests yourself. You might change your mind when you see the results yourself

 

[thecrow]

I suggest you read the article I linked to - and/or do some tests yourself. You might change your mind when you see the results yourself

Geoff I have read the information a while ago, it never changed my mind then so rereading it wont change it now I have as I said never had a knot fail or the line part at the knot when using it.

I would sooner trust my own experience of something than going to a new method of joining fluro to my mainline that I would have no confidence in until it had proved itself over as many years as the grinner has for me, maybe I should learn to tie the bimini twist

 

[geoffmaynard]

Okay, nobody is forcing you

 

[mikench]

Geoff I have read the information a while ago, it never changed my mind then so rereading it wont change it now I have as I said never had a knot fail or the line part at the knot when using it.

I would sooner trust my own experience of something than going to a new method of joining fluro to my mainline that I would have no confidence in until it had proved itself over as many years as the grinner has for me, maybe I should learn to tie the bimini twist

What has Chubby Checker got to do with fishing?

 

[Steve Arnold]

Make sure that you only use a coated hook when surface fishing - the metallic taste of an uncoated hook is pretty obvious to a stillwater fish and this is probably far more important than a black curling object which trout regularly mistake for a nymph.

Wow!!! Now that really makes me think!

I have held small steel components between my lips whilst assembling various bits of machinery and have always noted there is a bad taste. Rusty metal is worse than bright, new steel. But any metal leaves some sensation!

Despite working in engineering for much of the time I have been fishing, I never considered the taste of a hook to be relevant. That's about 60 years, so does not say much about my senses of observation - or deduction!

So I would guess that fish will be very aware of the metallic taste to the bait they are inspecting. Explains a lot now, I still have time left to see what can be done to improve my bait presentation.:thumbs:

 

[geoffmaynard]

I have held small steel components between my lips whilst assembling various bits of machinery and have always noted there is a bad taste. Rusty metal is worse than bright, new steel. But any metal leaves some sensation!

I've been banging this drum for donkeys years. I'm always a little amused when people give me a bait and say 'smell that' The taste of something in the water is far more important than the smell of it. Smell is carried in the air, taste is carried in water. Sniff a coin - then put it in your mouth.

 

[Steve Arnold]

As well as taste there may be another sensation that fish might feel more than humans - electricity fields!

Don't know about freshwater species, but in saltwater it is well known that electrical currents can be sensed by rays and sharks, these sensations help find hidden prey in sand or darkness.

I would guess livebaits such as worms, maggots and fish might be sensed this way. Vegetable based baits and deadbaits would not cause these fields but the steel hook almost certainly could! Particularly if it was plated and damaged. Even good quality steel hooks tend to corrode and this is an electrical event caused by the different metals making up the steel alloy or plating.

The metallic taste we sometimes sense may be more to do with electricity than flavour. Doubt its ever been investigated!

When I made up steel traces for toothy sea creatures I deliberately used soft alloy crimps on steel wire with the intention of generating that field. No way to be sure if it worked, but I did catch fish!

That's all a digression from the original question - I would not use fluorocarbon line for surface fishing, too dense IMHO

 

[binka]

As well as taste there may be another sensation that fish might feel more than humans - electricity fields!

That's something I've associated with eels.

On the general theme of senses I also think there's a link to what some call 'line sing', namely the vibrations that a tight line might give off in flowing water.

It makes sense when you consider the long hooklink theory with barbel and something I practice along with slack lining where possible which might negate such effects.

How many anglers consider the role and sensitivity of a fishes lateral line picking up such miniscule vibrations?

Apologies for straying off topic but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Philip]

That's something I've associated with eels.

On the general theme of senses I also think there's a link to what some call 'line sing', namely the vibrations that a tight line might give off in flowing water.

It makes sense when you consider the long hooklink theory with barbel and something I practice along with slack lining where possible which might negate such effects.

How many anglers consider the role and sensitivity of a fishes lateral line picking up such miniscule vibrations?

Apologies for straying off topic but interesting nonetheless.

I think it was Frank Warwick who used to suggest the sound of a buzzer could transmit down a tight line.

I certainly try not to stomp about when I approach a swim especially when I am doing things like Chub fishing and often take the long way round if I have to to avoid footsteps too close to were I think the fish are.