Question for all you floatfishers...

[Philip]

Something I have mulled about for a while whilst float fishing the other day.

It seems the general advice is to shot a float right down so just the very tip is showing above the surface to increase sensitivity. However I was wondering if I have say a float like say a peacock waggler so basically a float that has about the same diameter from tip to base does this really make much difference at all ?

If I have say 3 inches of float sticking out above the surface or just say 2mm showing how is this going to help sensitivity or make a difference to a taking fish ?

I accept surface tension may make a small difference but if a fish pulls the float down will it really notice any difference is there is 3inches or 2mm of the floats tip showing above the surface?

 

[captainbarnacles]

Ok if you have confident fish that will take a float away without worry, The main object of setting a float down to almost nothing , is when the fish are so shy they hardly move the bait. So in fact if you only have an 8th of an inch showing you will see it move more clearly than if you have 3 inches. I think if your waggler fishing and the bites get that sensative then swap to an insert waggler and shot it down. Just a matter of balancing between sight and sensativity mainly.Thats why you will always catch more on the pole because you can fish so very light. I,m not a great waggler angler so cant offer anything else ,but thats just my view anyway. tight lines mate. But having said all that there are other things that come into play such as shot patterns and the like. The droper shot near the hook can make all the difference betweeen getting a bite and not , water conditions , and many more its not just about the float hight is what i,m trying to say . Experience goe,s a hell of a long way. tight lines.

 

[peter crabtree]

too much float above the surface will cause resistance which fish will feel when they pick up your bait, dotting it down also helps you see lift bites.........

 

[dezza]

Thats why you will always catch more on the pole because you can fish so very light.

There is a lot of truth in this and it has to do with the inertia of the float.

A large waggler weighted with the amount of shot needed to dot the float right down will present more inertia to a shy biting fish than a light pole float with up to 1 1/2 inches of the "bristle" showing above the water. Of course a pole rig is light because you don't have to cast it.

I have done a great deal of waggler fishing in my life on both still and running water and have often seen the tip of the float disappear and then return back to the surface of the water as the fish spits the bait out.

 

[Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC)]

It's simples!

If you have for example 5mm of float tip showing and a fish pulls the float 6mm you will notice the bight because the float disappears from view.

However if you have say 50mm of float showing and a fish moves the float 6mm then you may not spot the movement unless the float is under your rod tip and/or you have good eye sight.

 

[Graham Marsden]

Philip, the answer to your float problem lies with Archimedes Principle that states:

An object immersed in water is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the fluid displaced by the object. The weight of the displaced fluid can be found mathematically. The fluid displaced has a weight W = mg. The mass can now be expressed in terms of the density and its volume, m = pV. Hence, W = pVg.

It is important to note that the buoyant force does not depend on the weight or shape of the submerged object, only on the weight of the displaced fluid. Archimedes Principle applies to objects of all densities. If the density of the object is greater than that of the fluid, the object will sink. If the density of the object is equal to that of the fluid, the object will neither sink or float. If the density of the object is less than that of the fluid, the object will float.

Let's put it this way, using two extremes. If you have a large amount of float above the surface that requires an SSG shot to sink it, the fish needs to pull with a force equivalent to an SSG shot to sink it.

If you have a tiny tip of float above the surface that requires only a dust shot to sink it, then the fish needs only to pull with a force equivalent to a dust shot.

Therefore the least volume of float above surface is more sensitive than a large volume of float above surface. That volume may be a long thin antenna or a short stump of a thicker float, but if the volume of water displaced is the same then they have the same sensitivity, as Archimedes states.

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

I'm a bit afraid of giving my views on this in case Mr Aristotle's friend, Mr Winkle, comes on and gives me a blasting again. All I said last time was (TTE) that a denser and therefore heavier tip would be more sensitive than a lighter and more bouyant tip, given the same diameters.

However, Archimedes' mate was right in that it's all to do with the amount of water the remaining part of the float displaces. So a 2mm x 6mm Ø tip will be easier to take under than a 50mm x 6mm Ø tip and therefore more sensitive.

However, given that it's the same amount of float tip that is showing, say 25mm (1"), then the bouyancy of the material does come into play, IMO (and don't believe the trick he showed with the nail - that has to go in the bunko booth). The more of a very bouyant tip that goes under the more it wants to get back up again thus creating more resistance, whereas a denser and less bouyant tip will not create as much resistance to being sunk.

A bit like pushing a bucket under water with a couple of bricks in it as opposite to a bucket of the same size filled with two brick-sized polystyrene blocks glued in it.They both displace the same amount of water.

If that makes any sense? Not that Aristotle's mate would agree.

EDIT: Hahahahah! Sorry Graham. I was typing mine before yours went up. However, I think you are saying the same, but with the scientific formula, aren't you?

Further edit: Mind you, I gave up fishing with buckets, but they've returned now as "Spodcopters" it seems.

 

[Fred Blake]

There are three variables to consider. Number one is the amount of unshotted float remaining above the surface; this can be determined by finding out how much shot is needed to just sink it out of sight. Obviously, one No 8 shot's worth of float will be easier to pull under than five SSG's worth.

The second variable is inertia, and this is not so obvious. It also carries two sub-variables. The first is overall mass. A five SSG float (whatever shape) shotted so only one No 8's worth of float is left showing will present a greater resistance to the fish than a 2 No 8 float shotted with 1 No 8. The extra volume of the larger float creates resistance below water, and this is an entirely different resistance to that presented by remaining buoyancy.

The second sub-variable is shape-related. Two floats, both taking the same total shot loading, and both shotted to leave the same amount unshotted, might appear to be equally sensitive. However, if one is long and thin, and the other spherical, the thin one will create less resistance in water.

The upshot of all this is as follows: leave only as much float showing as you need to be able to see it, or to hold it up against undertow, drag, current or the effect of a large hookbait. Choose the float size according to casting range and wind speed/direction and shoose the shape according to current speed/turbulence.

Here's two extremes as examples; suppose you're fishing a flat calm pond or lake for roach with maggots or casters. The ideal float is one that presents the minimum resistance to a biting fish, so you'd choose a thin one, as small as casting range allowed, and shot it to leave the least amount showing as long as you could see it. Example two; fast, turbulent, deep river; barbel and chub, luncheon meat or breadflake on size 8 hook as bait. You need a larger float to take more shot to get the bait down, and you need to leave a bit more showing to stop the bait or subsurface currents pulling it under, and to be able to see it at the end of the trot.

A bodied avon or chubber type taking (say) 4SSG would be suitable; a long thin waggler or stick type float fixed both ends and taking the same shot loading would not, even though it would be more sensitive (inertia rule 2b) as the extra sensitivity would work against you.

One trick worth knowing on lakes; if you use a thin-stemmed antenna float and over shot it so it only just sinks, then fish it overdepth with the bottom shot resting on the lake bed, you can leave more float stem showing without increasing buoyancy-derived resistance. This can be useful when you need to 'read' a bite and time the strike; a float that is there one second and gone the next (as is the case with a dotted-down float) doesn't allow you to determine whether the fish is still holding the bait.

 

[Graham Marsden]

I think we're all more or less saying the same thing, which is:

Whatever force is needed to overcome the amount of buoyancy left in the float (which is the bit above surface) is the amount of force needed to pull it under.

Ergo: the less buoyancy remaining above surface the more sensitive the float.

Once that float disappears the rest of the equation becomes academic as the angler will have tried to set the hook.

 

[Fred Blake]

I think we're all more or less saying the same thing, which is:

Whatever force is needed to overcome the amount of buoyancy left in the float (which is the bit above surface) is the amount of force needed to pull it under.

Ergo: the less buoyancy remaining above surface the more sensitive the float.

Once that float disappears the rest of the equation becomes academic as the angler will have tried to set the hook.

And therein lies the next problem! If the float's fixed to the line, you have to shift it before you can move the hook, and a big sunk float creates more resistance than a small one. The deeper the swim and the further out you are fishing, the worse the problem as the angle between rod-float and float-hook has to be overcome. In anything over eight feet deep it's worth fishing a slider, simply to take the float's mass out of the equation.

 

[captainbarnacles]

And all boils down to one thing at the end of the day. Try it and see ,talk to others , and one final thing is experience . I own over 650 floats dateing from the 40s to present day maybe a few more as well , i carry on average around 80 in my kit when i go fishing , and people say to me, god why you got so many floats , well the answer is simple weather , water , wind ,fish ,rain ,hangover ,how the fish are feeding confident or shy , and many other variables too ,these all come into play and change in a moment. Thats why i carry so many , so i can change with it . Ok bit over the top but hey i gotta carry em.I never went to colledge so i cant realy tell you how much force it take to pull a maggit 1 metre but what i do know is that if yu dont keep experimenting you,ll never ruddy know , so just go and have fun try all and sundry and you,ll eventually start catching and it will all come clear , well a bit misty at first but will clear by mid day. Tight lines.

 

[Philip]

Excellent stuff guys..Thanks ! ..ok so I am convinced it does pay to dot your float down..I particularly liked this from Graham as I think thats easy for anyone (even me!) to follow...

Let's put it this way, using two extremes. If you have a large amount of float above the surface that requires an SSG shot to sink it, the fish needs to pull with a force equivalent to an SSG shot to sink it. If you have a tiny tip of float above the surface that requires only a dust shot to sink it, then the fish needs only to pull with a force equivalent to a dust shot.

Ok so for the fun and one for all you physics buffs .....does anyone want to have a shot at explaining the forces that come into play when we fish a lift float and why its more sensitive than fishing a float in the conventional way? For example I guess a float sunk by say a SSG wont need an SSG of force by a taking fish to lift the shot and make the float rise due to the shot already being under water and the floats inherent boyancy?..or am I getting it all confused ...

 

[captainbarnacles]

wont begin to know the No,s on this one but when you think about it , with the lift method you already have aprox 2 3rds of the float under the water trying to lift the shot , so when a fish picks up the bait and shot i would think the float would assist this, so therefor making the shot and resistance lighter. would think thats how it works , but without me slide rule that i left on the bus on the way home i cant realy work it out that well. tight lines

 

[S-Kippy]

That's certainly my understanding of it though I've never fully grasped the physics [?] of the lift method despite it being explained to me.My meagre brain just about grasps the concept of the float's inherent boyancy means it is always trying to rise and once friend fish "trips" the trigger [by lifting the shot] the float is then supporting/lifting most of the weight of said shot.

So the fish doesn't feel the shot while the float is rising and the line is under tension. However,once the float lays flat and the "balance" is broken, the shot sinks and the fish will feel the full weight. Which is why you are supposed to hit the bite as the float is rising.Er...I think ?

Of course if you have a greedy bunch of yobbos with their heads down in front of you then the float surfaces like a trident missile and all the subtle niceties of the physics go out of the window.

 

[Tee-Cee]

Can someone tell me how to print off this thread....I would like to spend a bit more time getting to grips with the content-particularly GM,FB and JW's offerings......before it disappears of the radar!

I seem to recall I can cut/paste into Word???

MAYBE a current(fishing) book is available that goes into this in more depth(without the requirment of a degree!)???

Any help appreciated!!!

ps It seems still more to follow from others......but thanks anyway to all for this info..........will it help me catch more fish...probably not,but I like the idea of float choice being based on a more scientific approach-not too much though!!

 

[Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC)]

Tee-Cee

Look at the top left of the thread - the second button in is 'Thread Tools'

Click on it and a drop down will appear.

Click on 'Show Printable Version'

Then away you go!

 

[Graham Marsden]

Re the Lift Method: Both Philip's and Skippy's understanding of it is correct.

As they've already said, when an SSG shot is used for the lift method (whatever weight is used it should just be enough to sink the float) the fish does not feel anything like the full resistance of it, for it isn’t lifting the full weight. Most of the weight has been taken up by the float.

What you do is fish overdepth, the deeper the water the more overdepth you fish so that the angle from shot to float is right. A rough rule of thumb is a foot overdepth for every 3 - 4ft of water.

The sequence is this, when you cast in the float is lying flat (due to being overdepth), then you lay the rod on two rests and gently (so as not to disturb that bottom shot) draw back until the float is almost submerged. The shot will now be on the point of moving. So when that shot is disturbed by a fish it is only feeling what little is needed to break the balance and the float rises. Hence using two rests to eliminate rod movements that will disturb the shot.

That all works out OK until you have a heavy drag on the water, so when that happens the balance between shot and float has to be tipped in favour of holding bottom. The lift method still works but is not anywhere near as sensitive as when used on a calm water.

 

[captainbarnacles]

So now another question to ponder over , To us a weight is heavy to lift on earth as per gravity and in water we find things become a lot lighter as the water helps. Now a fish is born in water, so does a fish feel the weight as we do or doe,s the weight feel lighter to him too.

 

[Fred Blake]

Re the Lift Method: Both Philip's and Skippy's understanding of it is correct.

As they've already said, when an SSG shot is used for the lift method (whatever weight is used it should just be enough to sink the float) the fish does not feel anything like the full resistance of it, for it isn’t lifting the full weight. Most of the weight has been taken up by the float.

What you do is fish overdepth, the deeper the water the more overdepth you fish so that the angle from shot to float is right. A rough rule of thumb is a foot overdepth for every 3 - 4ft of water.

The sequence is this, when you cast in the float is lying flat (due to being overdepth), then you lay the rod on two rests and gently (so as not to disturb that bottom shot) draw back until the float is almost submerged. The shot will now be on the point of moving. So when that shot is disturbed by a fish it is only feeling what little is needed to break the balance and the float rises. Hence using two rests to eliminate rod movements that will disturb the shot.

That all works out OK until you have a heavy drag on the water, so when that happens the balance between shot and float has to be tipped in favour of holding bottom. The lift method still works but is not anywhere near as sensitive as when used on a calm water.

Your description of how to fish the lift method is spot on. So often the need for a float that just sinks under the influence of the shot is forgotten, and in many diagrams the rig is set at exact depth, which is theoretically possible, but rarely practicable.

However, I don't agree with your statement that 'most of the weight is carried by the float'. In fact, if the fish actually lifts the shot from the bottom (as opposed to merely dislodging it) it carries an ever-increasing amount of weight the further the float rises, and by the time it topples over the fish is carrying almost all of it. I think the reason the lift method is at all sensitive is not because the float carries the weight, but because it tensions the line to a point where the shot is almost moved (as you quite rightly describe). I don't think a fish lifts the shot very often anyway; it simply dislodges it and tension does the rest. However, shy biting fish will often detect the large shot, and do no more than cause the float to rise a fraction before they drop the bait; you might hit them if you're quick, but most times they've gone before you can react.

Nevertheless, there are ways of increasing the sensitivity whilst retaining the lift method principle. I for one wouldn't fish lift-style for roach or crucians with a one-swanshot lift rig. The trick is to use a fine stemmed antenna float with a body at the bottom. This carries maybe 95% of the float's shot loading, and at no time should this weight be allowed to touch bottom. You can put it around the float in conventional waggler style, but in practice it's more stable if you place it somewhere between mid-depth and about a foot off bottom.

The final shot (a small one) should be of a size that, combined with the aforementioned bulk shot, just sinks the float. The smaller this shot, the more sensitive the rig, but the shot must sink the float completely. It is placed two to six inches from the hook, and should be allowed to rest on bottom, with the float set overdepth (remember the bulk shot should always be off-bottom). Now, when you tighten up, you draw the antenna down in the water. Obviously, the less buoyant the antenna part of the float, the smaller this shot can be, but don't fall into the trap of thinking a shorter antenna will work as well as a thinner one; the float proportions should be such that the antenna comprises at least half the total length.

The rig works very well. If a fish merely dislodges the small telltale shot, the float rises a little. If it picks up the shot (which it's more likely to do without taking alarm, seeing as it's so small), the whole antenna rises out of the water. At no time does the fish lift the bulk shot to do this; only the telltale is involved. If it moves off with the bait, the float sinks, not because the fish has pulled it under but because the weight of the shot has dragged it under, and because the float sinks before the line is pulled tight between hook and float, the fish feels no drag from the float's inertia.

If wind or drag causes the shot to keep shifting, simply go further overdepth, increasing the distance between telltale shot and bulk accordingly, but keeping the float-to-bulk shot and telltale-to-hook distances the same. This makes the angle between lake bed and line from talltale to bulk shallower, reducing the tendency for the telltale shot to trip along the bottom.

It sound very complicated, but actually it's the simplest thing imaginable. If I can get around to posting a couple of illustrations, which I fancy would clarify things enormously, I will.

 

[S-Kippy]

Yes...to me it follows that anything you can do to exaggerate the effect is a good thing...like a long slim antenna and there is no need for a big shot if you can nail it all and create the right tension using a small shot. That's the essence of the whole concept is it not ? Friend fish dislodges/lifts the "trigger" shot and though it may physically move it only a small distance we see a much exaggerated resultant movement of the float. It matters not whether it is an SSG or a No 4 or smaller if the float is set properly and the rig can be tensioned correctly.

Again my meagre brain follows the logic of the lift effect of the float on the shot diminishing as it rises but it occurs to me that that is not necessarily a bad thing. Is not that gradual increase in tension actually working for the angler in the same way a fixed lead does ? Much diminished forces I agree but to me it seems that the eventual downward force of the shot is actually helping to tuck the hook in and making it slightly harder for friend fish to eject the bait ? Just a thought.