Otter cull

[dalesman]

With ref to the great john wilson in the angling times saying its time for a otter cull it will never happen.

Otters are one of UK's natural wild animals. Unlike the cormrants and the mink which i feel are a greater threat to the fish stocks.

Yes otter are a problem, but not like the cormrants a few years ago fishing a match at chester le street on the river wear I had the black death taking fish I hooked.

And I witnessed mink dragging sea trout from the the tyne and wear.

Lets deal with the imported threat first.

Local lads tell me cormrants are the biggest problem we have on the Swale and Ure and the becks.

Tell me I am wrong ?????

 

[watatoad]

I have fished since 1953 and for many years I fished with Otters around, I personally never found them to be a problem, I believe that they are here to stay and the best thing we can do is accept them and get used to it.

The re-introduction officially ceased in 1999 and although I accept that there was and will be some marginal spread of the creatures, looking at the way they have spread and the numbers that have spread I am inclined to believe that many have and are being illegally introduced and illegally distributed...Unless the Cormorants are giving them a lift, that is...hehehe...Otters by parachute

I have no sympathy for owners of commercials who complain about Otters nor the cost of preventing them getting into their venues, its a business expense just like protecting a retail shop from burglars.

 

[Fred Bonney]

The only part I disagree with of the posts above, is that I think anglings biggest threat is the water companies!

I have never seen a wild otter, and have been a country boy/angler for 50 odd years


I was speaking to a farmer/river keeper the other day, he was firmly anti otter.
He was however, in favour of mink as they got rid of the rats!!!

We all have our views I suppose for differing reasons, my view is that the otter threat is wildly over estimated.

 

[chav professor]

Well I suppose the Close season dabate draws to a close - enter the ottermg:

Learn to live with them.................

If they eat fish which have been stocked at some point...............Take a close look at the originol stocking policy.....................

I would argue that otters are a wild animal and should exist without the helping hand of man to a point. Wildlife hospitals, rehabilitation and reintroduction is certainly the area where we could lobby. Don't think this will happen due to drawing attention to the dubious stocking policies within certain areas of our own sport.

No one is planning to reintroduce wolfs or wild boar because they do not fit what the British public percieve as indiginous. They eat sheep, or could cause harm to humans

 

[richiekelly]

wild bore are in the country now, how they got there i dont know but i belive the new forest has some.

 

[Fred Bonney]

Wild bore on the Severn!

I think there are wolves in Scotland, probably somewhere near the beaver and the elk!!

 

[dezza]

I've never seen a wild otter yet in the UK, but I have seen them many times in other countries. African otters prefer crustaceans such as crabs to fish. They eat them in vast numbers. The only "fish" I have seen African otters tackle are eels and recently killed fish. This is based on the large number of "spraints" I have examined.

As regards English otters, I think that they are probably sorting out the vast numbers of signal crayfish in our rivers. They do take fish of course, but this is because of the shortage of eels which are by far their favourite food, based on my experience of African otters of course.

I once had a Cape Clawless Otter grab a fair sized carp I was landing. It made a mess of my landing net and a real old tug of war took place.

And yes, we have much more important priorities to sort out other than otters. Cormorants, mink, apathy, anti-ATr bods and the water companies are our main enemies.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Personally I don't agree with the argument concerning 'commercial' fisheries noting that several river fisheries are indeed 'commercial' enterprises.

When setting up a fishery the prudent owner will include in his estimates for some 'contingency' funding to account for those 'unknown' things that might occur.

That these animals have been introduced without any form of consultation, scientific studies or indeed much pre-planning or even thinking, appears to be a travesty!

No 'commercial' owner should now be put to the additional expense of fencing his fishery (which on rivers is totally impractical) due to the nuisance that Otters certainly cause.

It would be a relatively simple exercise to formulate a legal case against those who were responsible for reintroducing these animals to the Countryside. I am rather surprised that in these litigious times that this has not already come to pass.

If people actually believe that Otters are not being 'dealt with' in some places privately, then those are the ones that can be sold items such as the Brooklyn Bridge and Tower Bridge as well.

I am not in favour of a general cull at present but would like to see proper studies being undertaken, and placed in the public domain, as to the extent of the harm (if any) that can be proven to stem from these re-introductions. Then, and only then, should we as anglers consider supporting a cull.

Until such time I will keep an open mind and not be swayed by the 'oh look at the cute and cuddly' school that appears to be swelling the ranks of anglers.

 

[Fred Bonney]

"It would be a relatively simple exercise to formulate a legal case against those who were responsible for reintroducing these animals to the Countryside. I am rather surprised that in these litigious times that this has not already come to pass."

Could it be Peter, that it isn't really that much of a problem ?
Fishery owners not prepared to put their money where their mouths are?

Most introductions I would suggest are saved animals, this is people playing God.
As there are no natural predators for the otter, injured or abandoned animals should be left, as they would be in a normal natural environment.
We interfere too much.

I'm sure those of you who watched Spring Watch last night would have seen similarities in peoples thoughts about the magpie!
Kill the magpie to save the song birds...but there was no evidence to support any subtle difference in song bird populations where magpie exist!



THE RESEARCH!
Otters - The facts

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Could it be Peter, that it isn't really that much of a problem ? Fishery owners not prepared to put their money where their mouths are?

In the south on the chalk streams it is becoming quite a problem, and as I said, how do you 'fence' a river, as well as the fishery owners had no say in the reintroduction, so why should they pay for a problem they didn't have a hand in making?

 

[Fred Bonney]

Why should they pay?
Why shouldn't they?
If it's causing them a financial loss, and they can prove it's due to otter then surely it's in their best interests to take action...or perhaps do the other thing you hinted at!

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Why should they pay?
Why shouldn't they?
If it's causing them a financial loss, and they can prove it's due to otter then surely it's in their best interests to take action...or perhaps do the other thing you hinted at!

The main problem with taking legal action is not so much how to prove the case, (it was relatively easily achieved w.r.t. to Cormorants) but who to take the action against?

Those groups on undoubtedly well-meaning souls who worked to reintroduce these ace predators are virtually fundless.
First rule of litigation applies: don't waste money on people who don't have the money to pay the Court's awards!

The government (any colour, take your pick) will definitley claim; its not our problem' as they have done in the past.

Sadly this leaves most fishery owners with the final option; the last two 'roadkill' Otters that I've stopped to look at were full of buckshot. Fact!

Sad, but true.

 

[Dave Slater]

Personally I don't agree with the argument concerning 'commercial' fisheries noting that several river fisheries are indeed 'commercial' enterprises.

When setting up a fishery the prudent owner will include in his estimates for some 'contingency' funding to account for those 'unknown' things that might occur.

That these animals have been introduced without any form of consultation, scientific studies or indeed much pre-planning or even thinking, appears to be a travesty!

No 'commercial' owner should now be put to the additional expense of fencing his fishery (which on rivers is totally impractical) due to the nuisance that Otters certainly cause.

It would be a relatively simple exercise to formulate a legal case against those who were responsible for reintroducing these animals to the Countryside. I am rather surprised that in these litigious times that this has not already come to pass.

If people actually believe that Otters are not being 'dealt with' in some places privately, then those are the ones that can be sold items such as the Brooklyn Bridge and Tower Bridge as well.

I am not in favour of a general cull at present but would like to see proper studies being undertaken, and placed in the public domain, as to the extent of the harm (if any) that can be proven to stem from these re-introductions. Then, and only then, should we as anglers consider supporting a cull.

Until such time I will keep an open mind and not be swayed by the 'oh look at the cute and cuddly' school that appears to be swelling the ranks of anglers.

I agree with all you say Peter. People who have posted to this thread claiming never to have seen a wild otter either don't have the same problems we have down here, are blind, or do not spend much time on their local waters. As you and I both know they have caused serious problems on both the Avon and Stour.

 

[quickcedo]

I live in very close proximity to Otters. Since there return these are my limited observations.
The local Mink population has subsided (perhaps too much competition for food).
The local duck/waterfowl population has risen with nearly 40% of hatched chicks surviving to fledge this year.
We have losts all the remaining Barbel. To my knowledge there were only about a dozen left on the stretch so the problem was there long before the Otters return. They just seem to have finished them off.
I have found only 4 Carp cadavers.
The Chub appear to be still there but are now very hard to find esp the bigger ones.
The Crayfish numbers have definately dwindled but this is due partly to the harsh winter.
Despite seeing and hearing Otters hunting and playing on a regular basis the local fish stock appear to be holding up quite well. But the fish behavior has definately changed. They are far more cautious, consequently catches are down(on the canal). It remains to be seen this year on the river

 

[little oik]

I think they are the thin edge of the wedge .Abstraction, Pollution ,Hydro power Farming fertilizers to name a few .There is a heated debate at the moment over here concerning a large gas field found near Lough Allen .Two companies have been given licenses to "abstract" the gas .They are planning on using a method called Fracking.It has been banned overseas but it seems as if lining the back and front pockets of officials is more important .For those who have no idea what this entails,it basically means that they drill horizontal holes in the ground and use a mixture of water, sand and chemicals pressurized to force the gas out of the holes .If this goes ahead they will be drilling around Lough Allen which is part of the Shannon catchment which supplies water to something like 40 % or 50% of Irish homes .As yet they are not coming clean on what chemicals are going to be used ,but as it has been banned in other counties, I cannot see it being of the nice variety.

 

[watatoad]

Interesting maps but please check the dates etc.,

NBN Mammal Distribution Maps

Environment Agency - Otters - new report

Species Action Plans - Norfolk Biodiversity Website

and the man who made it all possible he who saved the otters.

The man who saved Britain's otters - Telegraph

 

[Fred Bonney]

You and I no somebody from the same area who doesn't think the same Dave...evidence?

 

[Dave Slater]

Fred
I do know one or two people who would disagree, but the vast majority of anglers I know in my area would agree.
I spend quite a lot of my time fishing and the changes are very noticeable to me. I have better things to do with my time than try to collect evidence to argue with so called conservationists and do gooders about. I think it would be near enough impossible to do in any case.
I just feel the changes when on the rivers. As you know river fishing has been my main area of interest for many years now but I find myself spending an ever increasing amount of time fishing still waters, in fact I have done very little river fishing in the last year or so. This in itself should tell you something. I may even go back to carp fishing if things get much worse.
If you have not suffered problems as a result of otter reintroductions in your area then I think you are a very lucky man.
I do not think anybody can be 100% sure that they are right on this subject. The next ten to fifteen years should provide the answer as things, hopefully, settle down. I have a horrible feeling that I may well be on the right side of the argument. From a personal view it is not too much of a concern as I may well have hung up my rods for good by then and I am sure I will find some good fish to catch in the meantime, be they on still waters or rivers, but I do fear for anglers of the future.

 

[sam vimes]

If you have not suffered problems as a result of otter reintroductions in your area then I think you are a very lucky man.

I don't think my local river has suffered unduly from otter related problems. However, there have been otters present since I first started fishing thirty years ago. In this area it's the stillwaters that have suffered from otter re-introductions. The existing population have seemed to have forced the newcomers off the river and away to search for territory and food. Any stillwater within reasonable distance of a watercourse or actually connected to a watercourse has been hammered. I know of two commercial stillwaters in reasonable proximity to the Swale that are now fenced and a club water not a million miles from the Tees that consists of a dammed stream that is also now fenced. I'm also aware of a club stillwater close to the Ure that is rumoured to have been virtually wiped out.

 

[Fred Bonney]

I'm sorry to say it Dave, but your rivers have been affected, and still are being affected by all sorts of man made problems, otters are just an easy target.