DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

[Alan Tyler]

Thanks, indeed, for that detailed and reassuring response, Andy. Great stuff. Siberia should be far enough!
Now to find out if Jack's Lake might produce a record roach (ho,ho, ho...)

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

Just a thought; If anyone really wanted to 'cheat' what is to stop the using of two sets of scales, faulty/uncalibrated when weighing the fish and then giving different scales to W&M to be checked?

I can remember some years ago a 'name' angler (at the time) causing a stink by suggesting that some anglers were changing over the dial faces of Avon's so that they appeared to weigh more.

John,

Point one, what is the point of an angler trying to cheat with two sets of scales, how would he know if the first set of scales were weighing incorrect, and by how much, if they were un-calibrated.

second point,

Didn't that known angler at the time withdraw a record for the same reason, ???.

All,

Andy said the BRFC could do the check, but I fear not, not unless the captor is present. Talking to an angler is one thing, Calibrating at set of scales is another without the angler present.

Any Angler who wanted to claim a record, would IMHO, want everything to be correct, or there wouldnt be any point in making a claim.

As I said and will always say, the BRFC are not Qualified to Calibrate scales, you dont get any Tom, **** or Harry checking scales at the weights and measures departments. Who would be quailified to Certificate the Scales ??? something the weights and measures can do.

Philip,

You didn't say how you got two different readings or what make the scales were.

 

[Philip]

Philip, You didn't say how you got two different readings or what make the scales were.

Ray, it was not me. It was a story in the press a few years back...mail or Times I think. I think it was discussed here too but I cant find the thread.

Point is I would have more confidence that a pair of scales would be more thoroughly tested by an angler on the BRFC even if he is not “weights and measures certified” who is using exactly the same test weights and testing procedure every single time , than some non angler at a local weights and measures office who probably has little idea of the significance of his results.

If I was closer I think I would actually go to a weights and measure office and watch them do it. I have doubts there is any rocket science going on when it happens...

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

Philip,

Take your scales for Calibration, it is an eye opener, and I am sure you will have second thought's. When checking the scales for a record claim, weights and measure's are very careful when calibration is being done, they understand just how important it is, they even give a full written report on the calibration test and result, far more than the BRFC ask for.

I wouldn't want the BRFC to Calibrate my scale's, would rather have someone who is trained to do the job, after all the BRFC are just a committee, who wait for all the facts to be put in front of them, and then say, Yes it is, or No it isn't a record, that's it. With DNA there will be even less for them to do.

Maybe the BRFC could go out and check Petrol, beer, and even the odd check on supermarket scales, whilst waiting for a claim to come in......mg:., can't be that hard can it ??.....

 

[Philip]

Take your scales for Calibration, it is an eye opener

I am not doubting it Ray but I am still not sure what it is they actually do ! …maybe you could describe it ?

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

I am not doubting it Ray but I am still not sure what it is they actually do ! …maybe you could describe it ?

I have done that, by telling you that the scales have to be checked to the full range of the scales weight, and back down again. Scales maybe an ounce out at say 4lb, but could be out by much more at say 20lb.

You have to see it to understand all the pro's and con's, I wonder how many have bothered to have their scales Calibrated, infact, I will start a thread on it.

 

[Berty]

I'm still confused......who said the BRFC calibrate the scales?

Andy, in his post said he took the scales of one claimnant to be tested, i presume not to the BRFC who just happened to be sitting about waiting!

If i know Andy, he went above and beyond the call of duty, probably at his own expense to get something done in the best and fairest way that anyone could.

I'm 100% certain he would have made sure the job was a good en.

 

[Philip]

I have done that, by telling you that the scales have to be checked to the full range of the scales weight, and back down again. Scales maybe an ounce out at say 4lb, but could be out by much more at say 20lb. You have to see it to understand all the pro's and con's, I wonder how many have bothered to have their scales Calibrated, infact, I will start a thread on it.

Hang on Ray, yes you have said they need to be checked at a range of weights up and then down …I also described a process for that a few posts back so I wont repeat it here. However you have still not said what exactly the weights and measures people do that requires so much training that a layman without special skills cant do ?

All you have said is things like Weights & measures “take everything into account” …“it’s a real eye opener” , told me I need to "see it to understand all the pros and cons" and implied that it’s a difficult complicated task that someone on the BRFC could not do.

So what exactly is it that Weights and measures do ? Did you actually watch them when they tested your scales ?

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

So what exactly is it that Weights and measures do ? Did you actually watch them when they tested your scales ?

Yes I did, and thats why you need to go and get yours checked, for two reason's. 1, so you know what your scales are weighing, and 2, so you understand what goe's into the Calibration.

I also said how fish should be weighed, as many don't weigh fish in the correct way, and thats why it is important that anglers should be present at a Calibration, so they can give the fact's, not have the calibration done on hearsay.


Now would you rather have someone who is trained in the correct way, check scales at shop's, so your not being done out of a few ounces eveytime you buy your goods, or do you want any Tom,**** or Harry doing the Calibration.

It doesn't matter if you think the BRFC can do the job or not, facts are, they are not trained to Calibrate scale's, simple as that. Take yours scales along it may all look simple, then come back and tell use what you think.

 

[richiekelly]

ray whats the cost of having scales checked?

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

ray whats the cost of having scales checked?

I am not sure what they charge in your area, I got mine done for nothing when claiming the record, the first time i paid was 2009, they charged me £10, and that was because the guy who always did mine has retired.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Other than checking my scales (both sets) against bags of sugar etc., I don't bother with having them checked or certified. Usually the scales are pretty accurate, but one set does record a shade low.

I am happy to know that the fish was 'around' a certain weight and as I'd never bother with a record claim I don't need thenm to be perfectly accurate.

I do wonder though how said 'accuracy' can be maintained with them being thrown into rucksacks, tackle boxes and the like as well as being roiugh-handled on the banks too.

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

Weight's and measure's have checked all my scales, 3 sets, Avon's, Reuben Heaton's, 1 x 60lb x 1oz, 1 set fly weight 12lb x 1/2 onuce.

The Avon's have weighed the same for over 20 years, outstanding scales for spring balance, by and far the best, weight's and measures words not mine. The RH scales weigh correct, but have yet to stand the test of time.

I have had Digital scales, never again, by far the worst scales you can buy. If they weigh correct, they will only do so with a new battery, once the battery has been used, the scales weigh different, and it gets worse the more the battery is used.

i like to know the correct weight of my fish, but thats me.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

I have had Digital scales, never again, by far the worst scales you can buy. If they weigh correct, they will only do so with a new battery, once the battery has been used, the scales weigh different, and it gets worse the more the battery is used.

I've heard that from a lot of anglers Ray, so I've steered clear of digital scales myself for that reason.

 

[Philip]

Yes I did, and thats why you need to go and get yours checked, for two reason's. 1, so you know what your scales are weighing, and 2, so you understand what goe's into the Calibration.

I also said how fish should be weighed, as many don't weigh fish in the correct way, and thats why it is important that anglers should be present at a Calibration, so they can give the fact's, not have the calibration done on hearsay.


Now would you rather have someone who is trained in the correct way, check scales at shop's, so your not being done out of a few ounces eveytime you buy your goods, or do you want any Tom,**** or Harry doing the Calibration.

It doesn't matter if you think the BRFC can do the job or not, facts are, they are not trained to Calibrate scale's, simple as that. Take yours scales along it may all look simple, then come back and tell use what you think.

You have still not explained what exactly they do that requires all that skill and training.

I have no idea why you go off about every Tom, **** or Harry checking scales in shops, I never said that and its got nothing to do with this discussion.

Also the fact BRFC are not trained or certified to test scales is not in doubt. All I am asking is what exactly do weights and measures do that someone on the BRFC for example could not ? ...I note you have now mentioned “it may all look simple…”


Shall we just both cut all the Bull ? ….if your basically NEVER going to describe what exactly they do and you just going to keep saying “its complicated go and see for yourself” …then just say so and we can just save ourselves allot of typing.

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

You have still not explained what exactly they do that requires all that skill and training.

I have no idea why you go off about every Tom, **** or Harry checking scales in shops, I never said that and its got nothing to do with this discussion.

Also the fact BRFC are not trained or certified to test scales is not in doubt. All I am asking is what exactly do weights and measures do that someone on the BRFC for example could not ? ...I note you have now mentioned “it may all look simple…”


Shall we just both cut all the Bull ? ….if your basically NEVER going to describe what exactly they do and you just going to keep saying “its complicated go and see for yourself” …then just say so and we can just save ourselves allot of typing.

You need to look back at the posts, I said before it's not that simple, but you carry on about the BRFC. The reason i said about the shops again is simple, you have to be trained to calibrate their scales also.

Checking scales up the full range and back down is what weights and measure's do, as i said before, and to do it correctly, you have to be trained.

So if the BRFC are not trained, then they can't do the job, and shouldn't.

 

[Philip]

You need to look back at the posts, I said before it's not that simple, but you carry on about the BRFC. The reason i said about the shops again is simple, you have to be trained to calibrate their scales also.

Checking scales up the full range and back down is what weights and measure's do, as i said before, and to do it correctly, you have to be trained.

So if the BRFC are not trained, then they can't do the job, and shouldn't.

You still haven’t answered the question. What EXACTLY does the weights and measures do that requires special training to check scales ?

& I suggest you look back through the posts because you have not answered that question in any of them.

The only thing you keep saying is the weights and measures check scales up to a full range and back down again. So in other words they hang a range of weights on the scales up to the max and back down again and check a + or – at a range of weights.

So tell me what special training is required to do that ? …do they have special skills in loading a plastic bag with weights ? Or perhaps they have special skills at really really looking at the scales..down on one knee squinting with one eye to make sure they see were exactly the needle is ? …Or perhaps they have special pencil skills to make sure they write down the weight neatly on a pad ?

What else ? Please tell me Ray …what am I missing…what else do weights and measures do to test scales that requires special training ? You said you have watched them do it so whats the problem ? …describe it …describe the special skills they displayed when they tested your scales.

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

Well Philip, I have watched Doctors perform but couldn't tell you what they do that is special....could you.

The problem is simple, You want to have DNA testing, I am fine with that, that is done by a specialist who is trained in doing his job, I am fine with that.

Then you want the whole thing to fall apart by having someone, who isn't trained in scale calibration, check the captors Scales, I don't think so, do you take your car to be repaired by a guy down the road, just because you saw him change a wheel ???

You stated in one of your posts that you know how to weigh fish, well looking back at the way you weigh fish, I would say you don't weigh fish in the correct way, yet you have been fishing for years.

The members of the BRFC may weigh fish correctly, but they don't know how to calibrate scales. You didn't state what scales were calibrated twice with different readings, just something you read.

If I knew exactly what Weight's and measures did, I would tell you, what i do know that is fact, is they have to be trained to calibrate scales, simple as that, and that i have said time and time again.

The DNA testing of fish is the way to go, the calibration of Scales by the BRFC is not, and is going backwards.

 

[flightliner]

So much confusion, after six pages of reading some very cogent but differing kind of arguments says it all to me that it will never be resolved, so i,ve concluded that if I were to land (another?)a record fish I just would,nt bother to claim it with anybody but myself along with any wittnesses who may be on the bankside at the time and let the grapevine pass it on untill it (perhaps)eventually became lost in anglings "mythology"
If somebody else took op the burden of a claim then its for them to chase whatever outcome they were after.

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

I couldn't agree more with the above.

Years ago record fish and the record fish list was very well known by angler's, and was part of your learning as a kid coming into the sport, the Record fish meant something then, Not now.

Over the last 15 years or so, the BRFChave done more harm than good for the sport, and the record list is now meaning less to most anglers, and many have no idea what weight is a record for a species, very sad.

To have two records for the Roach makes it even more laughable, yet you only have one record for the Rudd and Crucian, so tell me the difference.

To make matters even worse, a DNA tested Roach has come forward at under 4lb, thats great for the DNA, but the BRFC are now talking about lowering the DNA record claim, WHY, just so they can have a fish on the list, one by the way that doesn't have the correct witness'es by all accounts.

The BRFC lost it's way many years ago, and it is nowhere near getting back on the right track.