Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 124
  1. #1

    Default DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    On another thread about a potential record Roach it was mentioned the BRFC now have an opening for a DNA ratified Roach on their list. I have already applauded the BRFC for this decision as they have clearly nailed their colors to the mast that DNA is the way to go. Well done BRFC !

    However this also means we are about to enter a new era for record fish. If DNA testing is about to take off then we are also about to hand our record fish list over to a lab technician who in all probability wont be an angler. Imagine the scene ...some young tech in a lab late on a friday evening is working through a mountain of DNA files and comes to the one marked « is this a Roach? » ...he's knackered, he wants to go home, he gives it a quick glance...yeah that's a Roach...and bingo we have a new record.

    It reminds me of a situation a few years back were 2 sets of scales sent to 2 different weights and measures office came back with different results. I said at the time that the BRFC should keep a master set of scales against which any record claimants scales could be measured...that way everyone is always measured against the same goalposts by a fellow angler with an interest to get it right.

    So what about DNA ? ….Now I am not a scientist and have no idea what a DNA test actually entails but if a test now costs less than 30 quid I am inclined to think « how hard can it actually be ? » and is this something that angling could do itself ?

    I for one would have far more confidence that if someone on the BRFC was shown how to do a DNA test, they would in all probability do it allot better on a potential record fish than some lab coat who has no interest at all in angling. Perhaps the equipment entailed to do the test would be too expensive to be procured but in that case maybe someone on the BRFC could get some training and ask to be at least present when a potential new record is about to be DNA tested & ratified.

    So what do you think ? - Plausible ? Possible ? Impossible ? ...Or is it all just going to far...
    Last edited by Philip; 28-06-2011 at 23:02.

  2. Default Re: DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    I would say that it would be far better for an independant lab to do dna testing and lets face it they only need it for the roach ,rudd and crucian records anyway.

    Any labs I have ever delt with would do it properly .

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Liverpool
    Posts
    422

    Default Re: DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    DNA records are pointless unless you can tell it come from the fish in the picture whats to stop someone catching a hybrid giving a dodgy picture then using a normal roachs DNA kinda pointless

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    4,587
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    Whilst I'm not a geneticist I do have friends that are. The test would test against an agreed template of a true roach. The DNA is extracted from the scale of the potential record fish claim. It's then processed though a gel using an electric current. A profile is formed in the gel through the process.

    This can be read manually as it was in the early days of DNA testing, or by a computer as it is now. The computer generates a graph of the profile and by overlaying that graph on the the template the spikes and troughs can be seen where they are a match. The more matches there are the more likely it's a true roach. All of this process can and should have printouts to it. And a short written report including a matrix of the findings
    There will be a probability factor for matches normally its 95-99% accuracy to say that is a true match.

    The technicalities will need a protocol setting down by the BRFC but that shouldn't be that difficult as they are not reinventing the wheel here. Much work has been done on many species of organisms and they have such protocols.

    Whilst DNA testing might be very new to angling it's not to the scientific world.
    And given its used by the law to prove innocence or gilt be it for murder, who's the daddy and many other legal issues, there's very little doubt in my mind it will end up a mess.

    Found this to give you an understanding of DNA testing
    DNA Testing: An Introduction for Non-Scientists

    ---------- Post added at 00:55 ---------- Previous post was at 00:42 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rains View Post
    DNA records are pointless unless you can tell it come from the fish in the picture whats to stop someone catching a hybrid giving a dodgy picture then using a normal roachs DNA kinda pointless
    Nothing really, but there would be problems for the defrauder in that, how would they know that the roach they took the scale from was a true roach?
    Just because it looks like a roach doesn't mean it's a true roach.

    So it could backfire on the defrauder.... submits a scale for testing from what they think is a true roach and it's hybrid. The hybrid as they thought it could well be a true roach.
    I think DNA testing is going to throw up a few surprises for a few people making claims for contentious species in years to come.

  5. #5

    Default Re: DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    Quote Originally Posted by rains View Post
    DNA records are pointless unless you can tell it come from the fish in the picture whats to stop someone catching a hybrid giving a dodgy picture then using a normal roachs DNA kinda pointless
    If you're determined to make a fraudulent claim then it can be hard to prove otherwise but the same factor applies to the scales used. I have 3 sets of Avon scales; I could doctor one to weigh heavy and use that one then produce the most accurate set for testing - it's no different.

    There are only two known fraudulent record claims ever known ((pike and rainbow trout) although one or two others that were suspicious.

    Producing a scale doesn't preclude the normal set of id photos.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Barnet, S.Herts/N. London
    Posts
    4,249

    Default Re: DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    "Just because it looks like a roach doesn't mean it's a true roach."

    Which begs the question, how will we know that the library against which hopeful samples are compared, itself comprises "True" roach?

    I'm told that genetic studies of Canadian burbot can identify which catchment a fish is from; has a nationwide survey of "true" roach been carried out, to ensure that the full national gene-pool has been included?
    Or will all claims be compared to the first few fish that can be identified by dissection as "true" , even if they're all from one isolated population?

    ---------- Post added at 05:15 ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 ----------

    P.S. aren't fin-clippings (tiny) less damaging to the fish than removing scales?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    In God's County: Wiltshire
    Posts
    22,921
    Blog Entries
    6

    Default Re: DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    We anglers can be a rather cynical lot, can't we.

    That DNA identification has been investigated and found suitable for some coarse fish is, in my opinion, a good thing.

    I doubt it would be used as the lone method of identification but rather in addition to the 'usual' scale count, fin ray count, position of fins relative to body and the inclination of the mouth.

    Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers.

    Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary. ~

    Patrick F. McManus






  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Barnet, S.Herts/N. London
    Posts
    4,249

    Default Re: DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    It's a good thing as long as due care is taken to get it right!
    I'm sure it will be, but it will be nice to have an overview of the details the "True" roach, rudd and crucians that are used to build the "libraries", just so we can be sure the fish of someone's dreams isn't being rejected because it isn't from a long-isolated pool near the compiler's lab.

    Another way, of course, would be to ignore DNA completely, and agree a set of criteria which even a lay witness can check in the field and attest to.
    We might, for instance, say that any crucian-looking fish with no barbules, a dorsal fin with the central rays at least x% longer than the last hard ray at the front, and between y and z scales on the lateral line is, for anglers' purposes, a Crucian.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Cambridge
    Posts
    2,017

    Default Re: DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    The answer to this problem is for all true Roach to carry ID cards......
    PaSC Failed Club

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Barnet, S.Herts/N. London
    Posts
    4,249

    Default Re: DNA ...a new era for records or the start of a big mess ...

    Barcode their tails?

Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Two New Records
    By Simon Vicos in forum Coarse Fishing
    Replies: 69
    Last Post: 24-11-2005, 15:46
  2. What's the most horrendous mess
    By Ron Troversial Clay in forum Coarse Fishing
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 18-11-2003, 20:20

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •