Roach location/behaviour

[thames steve]

On a big river with plenty of room, such as the Thames, how does the behaviour and habitat of choice of say, a 2lb roach, differ from a 1lb roach?

Will the larger roach stay in tiny shoals of what's left of the bigger roach? Or will they stay with the larger shoals of smaller roach...or will they shoal up with bream?

 

[Peter Jacobs]

I can't say regarding the Thames as its been many years since I last fished that river.

On my local stretches of the Hampshire Avon though you tend to find the larger roach (2 lbs and over) will shoal together with either 3 or 4 other big roach or together with medium sized Chub.

You rarely will catch small roach for a while and then a bigger specimen as the larger specimens don't shoal with the smaller one.

 

[dezza]

Don't forget the effect of depth.

From fishing a lot of the rivers Severn, Leam, Warks Avon and Idle I have often found the larger roach swimming underneith the smaller ones. On the Severn for example, all my big roach came to link leger, laying on or stret pegging tac tics towards the end of a session and as the light faded.

The name of the game is to fish on the deck with a stationary bait, if you want the biggies. You might only get a couple of fish this way, as against a net full, but they are likely to be a couple of whoppers.

 

[cg74]

I've found the size of the river to be pretty much an irrelevance, its the size/age that seems to dictate their behaviour traits. This is on the rivers I've fished for roach; Windrush, Thames, Wey and Dorset Stour in the main. I'm not suggesting its the same everywhere.

Summer:

2-8oz fish shoal up in large groups near weed beds (rununculus etc).

8oz-1lb(ish) shoal up in much smaller than the small fish but retain shoaling tendencies. Location pretty much as with small fish.

1lb8oz+ I've found behave very much like chub, hanging around snaggy areas, rafts, over-hangs etc, in small pods of 3-10 fish.

Winter:

2-8oz and 8oz-1lb, shoal up and migrate into areas that offer them sanctuary from cormorants, basically areas that have continuous human activity, mariners, parks, busy stretches of footpath, or like was found on Thames lock in Oxford, 40,000 roach crammed into a lock.

Big roach either join the small ones or primarily they go further into/under the snags and feed best at times of low light, just like big chub. I reckon this is due to much reduced boat activity and/or seasonal weed reduction.

 

[no-one in particular]

I believe there is a theory that all of the fish produced from a batch of eggs will stay together for life. They will decrease in size each year untill there are only a few left. These are the surviving members of that shoal and they will be very wise/big fish. I do believe this for roach and bream. But I am not sure . But, thats why you will often find 2 or three really big fish together. I dont believe they swim with other shoals but, they will hang around downstream of a feeding shoal of smaller fish. I have often pulled out a decent fish by trying a cast further downstream of where I have been fishing. Sometimes works...worth a try.

 

[Fishing Gimp]

As my old mate John Brough used to say ' if you want the bigg'uns (roach), fish for 'em like you would for chub!'

In other words on the bottom with a largeish lump of flake or crust. Sound advice from a man who caught shed loads of 2lb plus roach in his life time.

I still prefer to trot though as it makes me happy and to be honest that is all that matters to me at my age!!!

 

[barbelboi]

I believe there is a theory that all of the fish produced from a batch of eggs will stay together for life. They will decrease in size each year untill there are only a few left. These are the surviving members of that shoal and they will be very wise/big fish. I do believe this for roach and bream. But I am not sure . But, thats why you will often find 2 or three really big fish together. I dont believe they swim with other shoals but, they will hang around downstream of a feeding shoal of smaller fish. I have often pulled out a decent fish by trying a cast further downstream of where I have been fishing. Sometimes works...worth a try.

I'm also a believer of the hatching theory as per my post from the 'River Bream' thread in June

Another theory may be that shoal fish are of similar size as they may be what is left of a particular hatching – i.e. they shoal for life. The larger the shoal, the less food they get, the slower they grow. The smaller the shoal...........etc. It may also explain why large fish are generally in a much smaller shoal, or even solitary, if they are the last of that hatching. How close various shoals will feed to each other? I would guess it probably varies considerably upon the conditions at the time.

Jerry

 

[Tee-Cee]

Following up on Ron Clays post which stated in essence "fish on the deck for the bigger specimens' I wonder what the ratio would be (based on,for example, all roach caught over 2,5lbs from rivers) of those caught on the float against those caught 'on the bottom'??

I suppose we would have to look to people such as Mark Wintle, John Bailey et al (NOT to suggests some FM'ers don't catch big roach!) as a guide but I would imagine bottom fished baits are superior.....

I love to long trot the Thames and generally speaking my better fish have usually come from the end of the swim way beyond 40 metres but not often enough to draw any conclusions.

Many years ago on the Hants avon around Ringwood /Ibsley, matches used to bring good bags of roach 30/40lbs weighing from 1lb to 1,75lbs but I don't ever recall any over this weight. Doesn't mean much in its self but it does suggest the shoals were of similar size?

Anyway, an excellent thread on a great subject....gets one thinking out of ther box!


ps I think John Baileys book on big roach fishing on the Wensum,apart from showing immense dedication, bears out the 'several huge fish keeping together' theory... IMO

 

[Mark Wintle]

I think on the Thames, from my limited experience on that river in winter, the bigger roach shoal together so if you are finding pound-plus roach then there is an outside chance of a big one of 2lbs. That said a 2lb roach on the Thames is truly a fish of a lifetime and one that I covet very much! Finding the better roach is key, and then getting the tactics right; on the Thames I believe the best chance is with sophisticated feeder tactics with bread and a roving approach to find the fish, travelling light.

Trying to apply Avon methods is a recipe for disaster as the circumstances are different.

Comparing the success of float v. leger for big roach on rivers is a hard one; I've never had a big roach on the leger - some over a pound including some on the Thames but a lot over 2-08 on the float. In my book I compare the tactics of Bailey (mainly leger) and Wilson (mainly float); both succeeded but differing lifestyles and opportunities (and venues on the Wensum) led them to their preferred methods and ultimately both caught huge numbers of very big roach, with Bailey shading it on the biggest ones.

 

[darrengeorge]

Don't forget the effect of depth.

From fishing a lot of the rivers Severn, Leam, Warks Avon and Idle I have often found the larger roach swimming underneith the smaller ones. On the Severn for example, all my big roach came to link leger, laying on or stret pegging tac tics towards the end of a session and as the light faded.

The name of the game is to fish on the deck with a stationary bait, if you want the biggies. You might only get a couple of fish this way, as against a net full, but they are likely to be a couple of whoppers.

Ron,

What sort of loosefeed tactics did you use, particularly on the Severn?

Thanks,


PS great thread

 

[watatoad]

I personally fish for Roach very differently most likely as I like to catch them on the float (it's just more fun for me personally).

I try to get a shoal of small to medium Roach feeding just under or slightly upstream of the rod tip, then I feed slightly larger examples of my hookbait about 10' (3metres) downstream then overcast and bring my baited hook back to sink where I have been introducing my larger hookbait examples.

I always said I was crazy but its worked for me well for over 57 seasons.

EDIT:
If you are after specimen's then that is a totally different ball game. The above will work fine for most Roach under 3lb.
END EDIT:

---------- Post added at 07:22 ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 ----------

The other tip I will offer is the edges of Bream shoals for medium Roach 2lb to 3lb.

 

[thames steve]

Great replies - thanks all

Continuing the location element of the thread, how much credence do you give to roach shoaling near human activity, where cormorants might be deterred? cg74 touched on it with the roach crammed in the lock...

Has anyone targeted big roach under moored boats in the daytime?

Have you noticed roach being attracted to brightly lit areas?

 

[dezza]

Ron,

What sort of loosefeed tactics did you use, particularly on the Severn?

Thanks,

On the Severn I used plain white maggots most times, with a tiny Drennan block end feeder with most of the holes blocked off with insulation tape. Rod was a Drennan Bomb Rod and reel a small Shimano. It's been a long time since I fished the Severn for roach and since then, so Des Taylor tells me, the roach fishing has deteriorated.

I also caught good roach on the Severn with casters and hemp.

 

[Darren George]

Thanks very much Ron

 

[darrengeorge]

It appears I have more than one username, weird!

 

[itsfishingnotcatching]

Another split personality on the site mg:

 

[Tee-Cee]

Watatoad wrote: "edge of bream shoals for medium roach 2 to 3lbs"...........I don't know where you fish but I wouldn't class roach of 2/3lbs as medium fish!!

Just what would you class as a big roach??

Unfortunately I checked your 'location' (ENGLAND!) but it did not help me locate this magical river full of medium roach......(add smillie thing here)

 

[watatoad]

I fish all over the country as often as I can which these days can be quite often. Although my local river is the Suffolk Stour.

Example of good places...sorry I don't give them out on the open forum...seen a good few totally ruined over the years. But I will say in my opinion there are more large Roach in rivers than most imagine.

A good or large Roach in my personal opinion is a Roach over 3 1/2lbs from a river. After all anything under 2lb is really just a young one and not yet learned how to be really crafty and smart.

 

[Mark Wintle]

I think Mr Toad is being naughty!

On the Thames a genuine 2lber is a fish of a lifetime. I researched big roach for over a decade for my book; the Thames best is something like 3-9-12 (probably the only 3-08+ one ever reported from the Thames!) from the mid 1930s but my guess is that it was either not a roach at all but a roach x bream from the Thames or was a true roach but caught from another venue that the captor preferred to keep quiet about i.e. Lambeth reservoir which later produced several very big roach for Bill Penney. On other rivers fish over 3-08 are extremely rare; most rivers haven't even produced one, and even rivers like the best of them all - the Hants Avon - not that many, maybe 10 or so. To define that size as large is therefore a bit silly as I don't know a single river venue where there is even a chance of a roach of that size at present. Listing even 20 genuine 3-08+ roach from rivers is a tough task. Some extremely successful big-roach anglers have yet to catch their first three-pounder, not from a want of trying.

My advice to Thames Steve is to fish hard, try plenty of spots, perfect your bread feeder methods, and hope that one day you are lucky enough to get that Thames '2' because it will be well-earned.

 

[darrengeorge]

Mark,

Is bread fishing covered in your book?