Roach location/behaviour

[Mark Wintle]

Mark,

Is bread fishing covered in your book?

Short answer is yes.

 

[watatoad]

I think Mr Toad is being naughty!

On the Thames a genuine 2lber is a fish of a lifetime. I researched big roach for over a decade for my book; the Thames best is something like 3-9-12 (probably the only 3-08+ one ever reported from the Thames!) from the mid 1930s but my guess is that it was either not a roach at all but a roach x bream from the Thames or was a true roach but caught from another venue that the captor preferred to keep quiet about i.e. Lambeth reservoir which later produced several very big roach for Bill Penney. On other rivers fish over 3-08 are extremely rare; most rivers haven't even produced one, and even rivers like the best of them all - the Hants Avon - not that many, maybe 10 or so. To define that size as large is therefore a bit silly as I don't know a single river venue where there is even a chance of a roach of that size at present. Listing even 20 genuine 3-08+ roach from rivers is a tough task. Some extremely successful big-roach anglers have yet to catch their first three-pounder, not from a want of trying.

My advice to Thames Steve is to fish hard, try plenty of spots, perfect your bread feeder methods, and hope that one day you are lucky enough to get that Thames '2' because it will be well-earned.

I respond to the above post by Mark Wintle with what is my personal opinion Mark Wintle how am I being naughty?

I have simply stated how I fish and what I consider to be a specimen or large Roach. The fact that you disagree with what I consider to be a large Roach is up to you and I accept that as your opinion, why are you unable to do the same?

I will also say that. In my personal opinion, any Roach angler who has not caught a Roach over 2lbs is not and can no way be considered to be a Roach expert, simply someone who likes to catch Roach.

Before anyone makes a comment, yes I do have a copy of Mark Wintle's book 'Big Roach' and it is a signed copy and I have read it. I was bound to its a book with Roach fishing in it. I will make no comment as to what I think of the book.

Unlike Mark Wintle I am not a professional author, I am an angler and primarily a Roach angler, how often do I fish dependent on my health these days but generally five times a week and often more regardless of weather or time of the year. I have always been a fanatical angler and even when Roach are not my target species I will always spend a little time on every fishing trip catching a few. Simply a lifetimes love of the Roach species will always find me looking to catch them whenever I am fishing.

I am not however taking being dismissed as naughty when I am simply trying to help someone catch a few Roach by a method I doubt that many have used and mentioning what I consider to be a large Roach. If it was not for my failing health I doubt that I would even now mention some of the many methods or baits I use and have used over the years.

Perhaps Mark Wintle should put a little more effort in answering the author of this thread's question, perhaps even a few suggestions or helpful advice or tips, rather than promoting himself and or his book. Or referring to having researched big Roach for 10 years.

You may have done a lot better Mark Wintle if you had put a little more effort into fishing and actually catching Big Roach, perhaps then you could have helped the enquirer a lot more with some tips and advice rather than being snide.

Maybe Mark Wintle should concentrate more on the thread post than the responses, that would certainly give him more creditability in my eyes.

 

[Mark Wintle]

Dear Toad,

I was trying to point out that a 3-08 roach is a monster and on the Thames extremely unlikely; that's not my opinion but borne out by history. Don't take my comments too seriously but I was trying to maintain a sensible approach to Thames roaching where 2lbers are all too rare - how many are caught each year - two, three? Better to discuss what is more likely i.e. pounders than talk about mythical three and a half pounders. I've had many roach from the Thames but it's a 200 mile round trip nowadays so I get limited opportunities to fish it but I still try to get there occasionally to try for some roach, few of which ever make a pound.

The Thames is interesting in that it's possible to catch roach by many methods in summer especially float fishing but in winter it changes a great deal hence the critically-balanced (with a bow in the line) bread feeder approach, usually at long range in mid river or further across, and best used on a river with some stream and colour. The same method has potential on part of my local Stour in the right condition if only I can locate the bigger roach which are being ever fewer due to predation.

 

[thames steve]

My advice to Thames Steve is to fish hard, try plenty of spots, perfect your bread feeder methods, and hope that one day you are lucky enough to get that Thames '2' because it will be well-earned.

Thanks Mark. Watatoad thanks also for your advice. Will give your baiting technique a few tries.

It's amazing how few 2lb roach are reported from the Thames each year. I'm on the bank a fair bit, am with the TAC and on all the forums so I suppose have ears to the ground. From Staines down to Hammersmith, a big area, you only hear of maybe 1 or 2. Friends who've had them over the years were all on boilies when carping. I'm sure there's more you don't hear of but doubt it's many.

I think the main reason more aren't caught is that on such a massive river, the issue really is location - hence this thread. Plus the methods used by most anglers, especially at night, are more aimed at carp and barbel.

 

[watatoad]

Dear Toad,

I was trying to point out that a 3-08 roach is a monster and on the Thames extremely unlikely; that's not my opinion but borne out by history. Don't take my comments too seriously but I was trying to maintain a sensible approach to Thames roaching where 2lbers are all too rare - how many are caught each year - two, three? Better to discuss what is more likely i.e. pounders than talk about mythical three and a half pounders. I've had many roach from the Thames but it's a 200 mile round trip nowadays so I get limited opportunities to fish it but I still try to get there occasionally to try for some roach, few of which ever make a pound.

The Thames is interesting in that it's possible to catch roach by many methods in summer especially float fishing but in winter it changes a great deal hence the critically-balanced (with a bow in the line) bread feeder approach, usually at long range in mid river or further across, and best used on a river with some stream and colour. The same method has potential on part of my local Stour in the right condition if only I can locate the bigger roach which are being ever fewer due to predation.

Then all you had to say is something like "I don't know many anglers who have caught a Roach over 3.08lb on the Thames".

True I would have smiled to myself and thought no you would not have, as the mad Roach anglers I have known over the years and know are more secretive than the old Carp Specimen hunters of the 1960's.

But I will stand by what I have said "There are more large Roach in the Rivers than most anglers would ever imagine".

I would ask you and any angler to just stop a moment and think.

Does this really sound sensible or logical... All the Roach get caught by predators, or drop dead as soon as they get over 3.08lbs with just a very few exceptions over the whole country, with the majority vanishing just below the 2lb mark.

Balderdash, rubbish. What do you really think is happening? Are most of the 2lb Roach abducted by aliens?

More likely very few anglers are dedicated to Roach fishing nor have many anglers discovered or learned how to find and catch large Roach.

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 15:56 ----------

Thanks Mark. Watatoad thanks also for your advice. Will give your baiting technique a few tries.

It's amazing how few 2lb roach are reported from the Thames each year. I'm on the bank a fair bit, am with the TAC and on all the forums so I suppose have ears to the ground. From Staines down to Hammersmith, a big area, you only hear of maybe 1 or 2. Friends who've had them over the years were all on boilies when carping. I'm sure there's more you don't hear of but doubt it's many.

I think the main reason more aren't caught is that on such a massive river, the issue really is location - hence this thread. Plus the methods used by most anglers, especially at night, are more aimed at carp and barbel.

Many thanks, for the appreciation. You have certainly in my opinion hit the nail on the head most anglers head for the known large species Carp, Chub, Barbel, Bream. Yes I will be among the first to agree location is the main key.

If you fancy a little small cost experiment buy a pack of dairylea cheese spread, butter a couple of slices of bread then spread two triangles of dairylea one on each slice them make them into a sandwich and then bait a size 12 or 14 long shanked hook with a pinch of the sandwich just pinch it tight around the top of the shank over cast across the river and draw the bait carefully back so as not to loose the bread and cheesepaste to settle the float 10' to 15' downstream having carefully plumbed the depth so that your bait is hard on the bottom with an 18" hook length before the first weight which should not be larger than a size 10. for a variation crush some elderberries and pour the liquid on the sandwich. Not tried this on the Thames yet but I intend to sometime this autumn health permitting. Try to find a spot to fish 50 to 100 yards downstream of any overhanging elderberry laden tree, look for a quiet spot in the flow. If you don't get a bite within the first 5 minutes draw the bait back just enough to lift the bait off the bottom and then let it settle back down. After another five minutes strike then reel in and re-bait and go through the same procedure again until you run out of hook bait.

Oops! use a very fine tipped float the finest and lightest you can get away with, well dotted down ( the barest minimum of the float tip showing ), not many bites will make the float vanish but watch for sideways or sudden upstream movement of the float and strike hard and very fast at that.

 

[tigger]

Then all you had to say is something like "I don't know many anglers who have caught a Roach over 3.08lb on the Thames".

True I would have smiled to myself and thought no you would not have, as the mad Roach anglers I have known over the years and know are more secretive than the old Carp Specimen hunters of the 1960's.

But I will stand by what I have said "There are more large Roach in the Rivers than most anglers would ever imagine".

I would ask you and any angler to just stop a moment and think.

Does this really sound sensible or logical... All the Roach get caught by predators, or drop dead as soon as they get over 3.08lbs with just a very few exceptions over the whole country, with the majority vanishing just below the 2lb mark.

Balderdash, rubbish. What do you really think is happening? Are most of the 2lb Roach abducted by aliens?

More likely very few anglers are dedicated to Roach fishing nor have many anglers discovered or learned how to find and catch large Roach.

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 15:56 ----------



Many thanks, for the appreciation. You have certainly in my opinion hit the nail on the head most anglers head for the known large species Carp, Chub, Barbel, Bream. Yes I will be among the first to agree location is the main key.

If you fancy a little small cost experiment buy a pack of dairylea cheese spread, butter a couple of slices of bread then spread two triangles of dairylea one on each slice them make them into a sandwich and then bait a size 12 or 14 long shanked hook with a pinch of the sandwich just pinch it tight around the top of the shank over cast across the river and draw the bait carefully back so as not to loose the bread and cheesepaste to settle the float 10' to 15' downstream having carefully plumbed the depth so that your bait is hard on the bottom with an 18" hook length before the first weight which should not be larger than a size 10. for a variation crush some elderberries and pour the liquid on the sandwich. Not tried this on the Thames yet but I intend to sometime this autumn health permitting. Try to find a spot to fish 50 to 100 yards downstream of any overhanging elderberry laden tree, look for a quiet spot in the flow. If you don't get a bite within the first 5 minutes draw the bait back just enough to lift the bait off the bottom and then let it settle back down. After another five minutes strike then reel in and re-bait and go through the same procedure again until you run out of hook bait.

Oops! use a very fine tipped float the finest and lightest you can get away with, well dotted down ( the barest minimum of the float tip showing ), not many bites will make the float vanish but watch for sideways or sudden upstream movement of the float and strike hard and very fast at that.

Hello Mr Toad, hope your keepin well my friend, not seen you on AN for a spell m8 .
Anyhow I for one think your right and there are more large roach lurkin in the waters than is realised. It does seem though that round these parts "Lancashire" most of the larger specimines are being caught on larger ledgerd baits like boilies and pellets aimed at barbel and chub ! I've had a fair few just topping 2lb this summer whilst trotting for barbel and chub using bunches of up to 12 maggots on the hook and sweetcorn maggot cocktailes. Not a sniff off them on bread flake...wierd I know but that's how it's been. Also the 6lb line i've used combined with a 14's animal hook hasn't appeared to put them off either. I've actually had some enormous dace also mixed in with the roach. What I have noticed is that I rarely get more than 2 or 3 decent roach in a session and on most occassions just the odd one. I don't know if catching the one fish may have put off the others or if there's only been one in the area or what. I mean you always think of roach as being shoaling fish so when one puts in an appearance you'd expect there to be a few more to follow.
I fished into the dark on a largish local river several weeks back and had a lot of rattles on my rod tip (ledgerring with 1.75 test aiming for barbel) and after catching several eels on worms I assumed it was down to them plucking at the three sweetcorn segments on the hair of a size 10 drennan barbel hook. Anyway the tip bent a little bit further and kept rattling quite hard so I lifted up the rod expecting a eel but it was infact a roach of over 2lb. This continued for an hour or so and I did have quite a few roach in the same size bracket before my hunger made me go home. I think if I'd had a more subtle set up and stayed later I would have maybe started to get the larger one's in the shoal. Maybe the cover of darkness and a slack area in a dropping river would have produced me something special :w.

 

[watatoad]

Hello Mr Toad, hope your keepin well my friend, not seen you on AN for a spell m8 .
Anyhow I for one think your right and there are more large roach lurkin in the waters than is realised. It does seem though that round these parts "Lancashire" most of the larger specimines are being caught on larger ledgerd baits like boilies and pellets aimed at barbel and chub ! I've had a fair few just topping 2lb this summer whilst trotting for barbel and chub using bunches of up to 12 maggots on the hook and sweetcorn maggot cocktailes. Not a sniff off them on bread flake...wierd I know but that's how it's been. Also the 6lb line i've used combined with a 14's animal hook hasn't appeared to put them off either. I've actually had some enormous dace also mixed in with the roach. What I have noticed is that I rarely get more than 2 or 3 decent roach in a session and on most occassions just the odd one. I don't know if catching the one fish may have put off the others or if there's only been one in the area or what. I mean you always think of roach as being shoaling fish so when one puts in an appearance you'd expect there to be a few more to follow.
I fished into the dark on a largish local river several weeks back and had a lot of rattles on my rod tip (ledgerring with 1.75 test aiming for barbel) and after catching several eels on worms I assumed it was down to them plucking at the three sweetcorn segments on the hair of a size 10 drennan barbel hook. Anyway the tip bent a little bit further and kept rattling quite hard so I lifted up the rod expecting a eel but it was infact a roach of over 2lb. This continued for an hour or so and I did have quite a few roach in the same size bracket before my hunger made me go home. I think if I'd had a more subtle set up and stayed later I would have maybe started to get the larger one's in the shoal. Maybe the cover of darkness and a slack area in a dropping river would have produced me something special :w.

Hi Tigger,
Not been too great this year had little problems with both my heart and a MS flare up about four weeks with just a pure white glow to see, but the eyes are getting much better in fact strangely so although fairly light sensitive still, you would think I would have got used to the increased sensitivity after so many years of having it but it seems to hit me as hard each time although I have got used to loosing my sight for periods. once my arms and legs started on their recovery I went fishing did manage to tackle up but could not unhook safely for the fish and hooked myself when baiting the hook...hehehe you'd think I was after shark and had to restrict myself to underhand casting and touch legering as I could not even see the water let alone the float but it has proved that with a little help you can fish even when you are blind...hehehe I could not have even seen my hand if it was touching my nose. never mind I can see the float clear enough now and my remaining bit of my heart is just managing to keep going although at the moment its all I can do to get myself to the water and I need someone to pull my trolley with my tackle on it. Lucky I fish ultra light these days and have my son and many very good and kind friends who take (well almost drag me) fishing

But the fishing is good and spotted some excellent Roach and some very nice Chub from a bridge although the shortest trott I will have to do to even be in with a chance is well over 100 yards as its all private land nearer so I must wait until the cabbages (water weed type) die down and get my longest rod even then the strike might just be too far if it is I will leger the bu**ers out. or buy a boat seasick or not they really are most excellent Roach and you know me with good Roach I would crawl across the country on my knees for something really good...hehehe Its only a small shoal maybe 20 or so but magic.

Had a few Roach and some fair Chub last Saturday then I suffered a plague of 2lb to 3lb Perch for over an hour. Angler near me was having no luck, he asked me if I was using some secret bait and did not believe me when I said plain white maggots (I'd eaten the french baton (small stick) I brought for bait)...hehehe. I even invited him to have some, which he did but to no avail. I tried to tell him he was fishing over 3' too shallow but he did not want to believe it as I was catching on the drop...still you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

I'll try to get up your way next year health permitting and perhaps we can go and see what Roach we can find together, I'll bring a carer with me so I won't cause any problem for our Roach fishing. I'll start studying the river in your area on google maps and see what I can find, so expect pm's concerning stretches and club membership. See if I can get hold of some satellite photo's of likely stretches. I just love modern technology much easier than plain ordnance survey maps and so detailed makes fishing an easy sport for me now I can no longer hunt the Roach on foot in the wild hard to get at area's.

EDIT SUGGESTION:
Drop to a size 10 long shank hook increase the distance between hook and fist weight gradually in steps of 2" and give a go to sorry this is the bit I usually upset some for which I apologise to any with a sensitive nature but they are dead and bought from a recognised retail supplier. Liquidise 2 frozen mice buy them from a pet shop where they are sold as reptile feed. mix with a white bread hemp worm and liquidised elderberry in a cloudbait I dry mine in the oven slowly but ovens differ so keep an eye on it as you don't want it to darken too much. on the hook about a third of a chopped lob and two maggots if they are totally off the bread. Alex aka suffolktoad has been having a lot of success with lately is pomegranate blackberry and elderberry breadpaste, but I have not tried it although I shall be using some Friday afternoon/evening on what looks like a promising stretch. Though I am not fully convinced with the pomegranate as its not an indigenous fruit.
ENDEDIT:

---------- Post added at 18:08 ---------- Previous post was at 17:36 ----------

Sorry memory not yet up to speed as you know I have no short term memory and this last flare up has caused a slowness in my normally terrific long term memory.

I think it was 1972 but it might have been 1971 a lot of Roach went off the bread for most of the year but could be induced back onto it by using a bright gilded gold hook might be a thought will only cost you a quid or so for some to try.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

Going back to theory that same year class shoal of roach hang out together but sadly in declining numbers each year..i think I believe this. On the rare occasions i have seen a small shoal of 1-2Ib roach, say a dozen or twenty fish max, they have not been swimming or joined together with much smaller fish. Some range of sizes could just reflect natural variations in growth rate between individuals of same age as much as different aged fish. Perhaps some fish from the same batch of eggs could reach say 2Ib at the same time as others could have stopped growing at a smaller size, but they still all shoal together?

 

[matty w]

I used to believe that Roach would go from fry to old age as a shoal with their numbers being depleted as the years went by. Experience on the Hampshire Avon would suggest this is not necessarily the case. Several years ago a mate & I fished one stretch and the few Roach that remained went from ounces to very very big. I suspect that because numbers were low it was only natural they'd shoal together. Sadly I suspect even fewer of those fish remain now.
Where a decent population resides I suspect the year class theory still holds good.

 

[itsfishingnotcatching]

pomegranate blackberry and elderberry breadpaste

As someone who enjoys fishing for roach but has yet to reach the 2lb mark I would be interested in how the above works. The dairylea sandwich will be tried next time on the bank.
This has been a most instructive thread thank you

 

[watatoad]

As someone who enjoys fishing for roach but has yet to reach the 2lb mark I would be interested in how the above works. The dairylea sandwich will be tried next time on the bank.
This has been a most instructive thread thank you

Hehehe...You got me I have to confess I use a lot of natural baits although many will be unnatural to most others, The Confession My wife caught me using her liquidiser to liquidise a mix of slugs and mice...hehehe

So before attempting any of my crazy mixes Please Please buy your own liquidiser as I cannot accept responsibility for any family in the kitchen problems, which if it involves a wife or partner may spill into the bedroom or whatever.

pomegranate blackberry and elderberry breadpaste:-
simplicity itself
I use about a 1/4lb of blackberries and the same of elderberries and 1 (one) pomegranate (which I scoop the middle out and just use the entire middle e.g. I am just left with the skin which I do not use) once liquidised.

I grab an old kitchen sink bowl (only old because I just use it for bait) I add as much oven dried bread with the crusts cut off as needed it varies a bit due to my varying abilities at drying bread in the oven but generally a good loaf. Then kneed it all together (maybe you should wear those gloves that doctors wear latex I think they are called no short term memory but a very good long term one). Do not add any other liquid even if it is a bit dry you can do that at the waterside if you have to, its best to use it up within about a week.

To convert it to a groundbait I personally add varying mixes which can include sawdust for midwater breakup or sand to get it quickly to the bottom or fairly often granary bread or a bought groundbait.

I often take an old flask of my liquidised mix, just in case of a really great session...hehehe a hopeful Toad

Its a fairly good, very handy and I have found it to be a very reliable Autumn bait. Although if you have no blackberries or elderberries near the water I am not sure how it will perform.

Prior to using the pomegranate just recently and again this week I have used the mix without pomegranate and can say that blackberry and elderberry paste has worked brilliantly for me over many years. Please don't forget elderberry is a very good hookbait for roach especially when mixed on the hook with a little silkweed. I think the Roach mistake it for those small black snails they are so fond of.

I will say this here as I had a real dig at Mark Wintle I have half finished a review of Mark Wintle's book but need to read the last two chapters again. As you can imagine I have never met Mark Wintle nor have we corresponded or had any contact with each other other than on this forum, I can promise all of you that as is my way it will be a totally honest and unbiased review, not because I have any feeling of guilt as I don't. I am however known for being totally fair and honest in my opinions, although there is bound to be someone somewhere who is bound to say different. That's the nature of anglers and their pride...hehehe

 

[itsfishingnotcatching]

Many thanks

Now to source some elderberries, do they freeze?

Ian

 

[watatoad]

Yes, I wash mine dry them then spread them out on a tray and quick freeze them, so they are individually frozen finally I bag them up, although it can be a competition as to who grabs them first from the freezer the wife or me...hehehe

EDIT:
I have found it easier and cleaner to use a fork to pull them off the tree, don't go crazy doing it and you will damage less I go through and use the damaged ones first and some might like to consider the old latex gloves, as I realise some jobs require your hands to be clean and unstained. I collect about a bucketful usually sometimes more if she who has to be obeyed wants some for wine making. Although in fairness she lets me had some of hers if she goes to collect them first.
END EDIT:

 

[dezza]

Ron,

What sort of loosefeed tactics did you use, particularly on the Severn?

Thanks,

I didn't loose feed as such. Any loose feed went into my swim via a feeder.

I like to use a small blockend feeder on fast rivers loaded with a "sandwich" of hemp, maggots and casters, or liquidised bread and hemp with casters or flake on the hook.

It might be an idea to set up with a bolt rig.

I am updating this post to include how I fish a feeder on the Trent.

 

[Tee-Cee]

Re The freezing of elderberries:

I don't use a fork to pull my berries from the stalks (although it probably works okay as well!) nor do I wash mine as it just introduces more moisture to the process. I remove most of the stalks prior to freezing and once frozen the berry just pings off the remaining stalks which,IMO reduces damage to the fruit.

This year is the first time I've used this method and although I have sevaral bags of beautifully frozen fruit I am NOT at all sure how the berry will behave in the defrosting process. Its obvious crystals of water will cover the berry in freezing but what happens when the berry defrosts-do the crystals, once melted, give a soggy fruit??

I intend defrosting a few (on kitchen towel to absorb the water) and, after allowing the fruit to air dry, I will try them on a hook......

I note that 'watatoad' has frozen berry before so perhaps I'm being too careful BUT my wife who freezes fruit in a big way says frozen fruit/water is always a problem IF a solid friut is required AFTER defrosting......................and I always take notice of the wife!

So, as far as I'm concerned the 'jury is still out' on the finished product although 'watatoad' will, undoubtedly respond to this post and put my mind at rest.........After all, he does like to have his say doesn't he...Hehehe

Whatever, if you haven't frozen your fruit by now you're TOO late as they have gone over- in my area anyway!

 

[Mark Wintle]

Elderberries

I froze some last week and used them a couple of days later with no problems at all. I just thawed them with boiling water as they were in a bag with some cooked frozen hemp. Elderberries are soft anyway, held together with the skin.

I picked a batch earlier this week and froze them to keep; as you say they are going over quickly now.

 

[dezza]

Hehehe...You got me I have to confess I use a lot of natural baits although many will be unnatural to most others, The Confession My wife caught me using her liquidiser to liquidise a mix of slugs and mice...hehehe

mg:mg:mg:mg:mg:

 

[Tee-Cee]

Ron: I thought thats why everyone has a 'house' mixer.... I think you must be missing out!!

Just think how many more fish you might have caught......