BIG ROACH a book by Mark Wintle

[barbelboi]

I also have caught many 2lb+ roach over the years, but only one genuine 3lb ‘er. This was during a match on the Kennet in 1965 and weighed in at 3lb 2oz which, together with a slightly smaller chub, was my total weigh in for the day. Dozens of other fish didn’t make the keepnet due to the ‘steel rule’ rule of the time. This, I believe, would be probably my one of my most difficult PB’s to beat on anything other than a still water.
Jerry

PS Having great fun at the moment every couple of weeks, or so, on a local farm pond and the targets for this pond,this autumn/winter, between my river fishing, are a 2lb roach and a 4lb perch . (Best to date are 1.14 and 3.12)

 

[Mark Wintle]

In my River Trent, the roach at the moment are averaging about 7 oz with the odd one, and I mean odd, going just over the pound.

I am fascinated why certain baits produce good sized roach and with others like maggots and casters produce bleak after bleak after bleak!

I'm getting a similar stamp of roach (on berry) to you, Ron, with most being 4-8oz, the odd 10oz one, and one last week of just on a pound but there are 2lbers present somewhere in the complex of swims I'm fishing. I shall try another area this afternoon. Lovely plump roach that for some reason have that same coral colouration as the Trent roach.

Maggots producing plenty of dace and some bleak, few minnows about this year but had a monster (for a minnow) last week on a tare!

Fishface1,
In my research for my book I found 4lb river roach were exceptionally rare. I found reference to a 2001 EA survey on the Test that turned up two truly enormous roach, both well over 4lbs though no pics. The Avon shaded 4lbs with 3-15 and 3-15-8 (same fish), the Stour only produced Ray's record of 4-03. Biggest I ever saw in the water were two monsters in Throop weir in 1990 that dwarfed a big shoal of mere 2lbers. I had access to many exceptional roach anglers and they were brutally frank about what they told me; they knew that a genuine 3lb river roach is a fantastic fish, and ones much over 3-04 fish of a lifetime.

 

[no-one in particular]

Last Sunday had some very good roach on plain old bread. Wouldn't take the sweetcorn though which was odd as it is usually the other way round for big roach. But, the good roach seem to be feeding at present. I have always found September to be a very good month for big roach. The roach I was catching were not that big but, very good against the average size for the water -probably around the 1lb mark , maybe a bit less.

 

[watatoad]

I have fished just about every river in the British isles and not just once and I do not mean just the large and/or famous rivers and you must all remember I am talking about catches seen over a period of 57/58 seasons and often several sessions a week that's quite a long while, one heck of a lot of sessions and quite a lot of very changing conditions.

I have a theory which will make you all laugh I think we have a lot of mum's, kids and little old ladies who have fed ducks and swans for countless years plus maybe a few night stalkers (poachers) who have wanted to get the birds feeding together.

QUOTE:
Barbelboi
I also have caught many 2lb+ roach over the years, but only one genuine 3lb ‘er. This was during a match on the Kennet in 1965 and weighed in at 3lb 2oz which, together with a slightly smaller chub, was my total weigh in for the day. Dozens of other fish didn’t make the keepnet due to the ‘steel rule’ rule of the time. This, I believe, would be probably my one of my most difficult PB’s to beat on anything other than a still water.
Jerry

PS Having great fun at the moment every couple of weeks, or so, on a local farm pond and the targets for this pond,this autumn/winter, between my river fishing, are a 2lb roach and a 4lb perch . (Best to date are 1.14 and 3.12)
END QUOTE:

It is the unexpectedness of a (your terms) Monster Roach with a match going on you would not have expected to get a good Roach but you did well done.

The Suffolk Stour the most common (' better sized Roach ') these days are around the 2lb although I have recently located a more interesting shoal or two which as soon as I can I shall target and try to remember to get some pics for you all with a ruler but I shall not be weighing them. between 1970 and 1990 was for me a brilliant time for Roach on the Suffolk Stour, although you did even then have to put in some travel effort. Although I once had a Roach (not very large guessing maybe 6 to 8ozs) take an empty bright gilt hook that made me laugh I can tell you.

I do not believe I am the only angler on here to use somewhat unusual baits successfully i.e. any bug or insect I can find or even anything that might fall into or die in the water, I even always have a tiddler net just for getting small water born bugs. Plus a tiny close pronged garden rake head which I have adapted to fit my landing net handle just to get silkweed. I have also has some reasonable success when using a wet fly on a float set-up.

 

[fishface1]

Mark,

I suspect I missed the "big" roach years - only being qualified since 1992. Interestingly some of the biggest hybrids I eluded to earlier were from the Test, and I suspect when carrying spawn, they could have gone well over 4.... Very roachy but not roach....
No doubt there are still a few biggies kicking about somewhere in the Avon catchment and I guess with lower stocks a 4 might be possible.
There are a number of rivers with 3s in them but I think the bit of water in your avatar might be the best place for a real river 3 at the moment (although even here I guess it's not what it was, as I saw a cormorant have a near 2 a couple of winters ago...). , although I do hope Toady comes up with a couple of Suffolk crackers this autumn/winter.
I've never fished the Suffolk Stour, but maybe it has escaped columnaris and the over use of pesticides (amoungst other things) that have blighted other rivers.

 

[watatoad]

Mark,

I suspect I missed the "big" roach years - only being qualified since 1992. Interestingly some of the biggest hybrids I eluded to earlier were from the Test, and I suspect when carrying spawn, they could have gone well over 4.... Very roachy but not roach....
No doubt there are still a few biggies kicking about somewhere in the Avon catchment and I guess with lower stocks a 4 might be possible.
There are a number of rivers with 3s in them but I think the bit of water in your avatar might be the best place for a real river 3 at the moment (although even here I guess it's not what it was, as I saw a cormorant have a near 2 a couple of winters ago...). , although I do hope Toady comes up with a couple of Suffolk crackers this autumn/winter.
I've never fished the Suffolk Stour, but maybe it has escaped columnaris and the over use of pesticides (amoungst other things) that have blighted other rivers.

An interesting point you have made concerning the hybredisation of Roach and certainly this is a problem that has grown and increased over the years. Which seems to me to be strange as it is not as if Bream or Chub or Rudd are newly introduced species.

I very much doubt the Suffolk Stour has missed pesticides being in England's bread basket but where it may have suffered less currently is because it is used as a water conduit for reservoirs nearer London. We have always had Otters in the river, although the best Roach I have both caught and seen caught have all been from smaller rivers or quieter stretches of larger rivers. Many of the smaller rivers in my part of the country are almost not fished at all these days.

 

[Philip]

Please lets forget the 'Mr'. Toad, Toady or Rod is great.

I have seen more than a couple on the bank although I was and am trying to use everyone elses size guide as that is easier for you all. Sure Mark and I differ in choice of description. However it is a pity some people want to try to get a flame going in a thread. Hopefully by using the more common and generally acceptable definition, this will not be such a problem. So to reitterate in future I will be using what appears to be the general size definition for fish, does that make everyone happy.

To make it totally clear I have even seen a few Roach in excess of 4lb on the bank. But I make no reference to who may have caught them. Believe it or not as suits yourselves. I will not however be drawn into a flame session regardless, as I don't care what anyone believes or does not believe. Nor will I say what any of my personal bests are, that is between me and the fish.

Lots of things don't add up Mr Toad but rather than spoil a good thread I'll avoid tugging at those annoying loose ends and focus on the fishing....

So instant baits. Why do fish know Hemp or an Elderberry is food ? ...

I think a fish will investigate anything as a potential food source, be it an Elderberry, a bit of bread or whatever. If it eats it without any hidden surprises (like a hook..) and it suffers no bad experience it will have it again next time it sees it. I have used Hemp for example in places I am as sure as I can be the fish will not have seen it and they are straight on it. Same with Tigers...how many fish would have come across a Tiger nut ? ...but they are instant as you could want. My opinion is that its the oils/scent that get fish on Hemp especially when its freshly cooked still hot and pumping out the oils. If you can throw in particles still hot then do it is my advice.
After that I think the fish like the texture, I think once they take them they like to pass them to the back teeth and give them a good crunch. Also being small it keeps the fish there, I think once on it they will try and finish every grain ...like a person with a packets of crisps...you cant stop till they are all gone. If it was one potato you would gobble it down in 30seconds but when its cut up into smaller individual crisps it will keep you preoccupied for 5mins. Same with hemp, it keeps the fish grubbing around and is one of the best attractors there is I recon.

I would be interested to hear more about fishing with Silkweed. I watch some good fish sucking away at weed in the summer, ignoring anything else thrown at them. I think they may be tempted by a nice bit of silkweed. John Wilson wrote some good stuff on fishing it in the past but I would be interested to hear others views as well.

Fish sizes....

Like most I think a « big » roach is relative to the water with a 2 pounder being a specimen anywhere. Ok fantasy time...how big can Roach grow in optimum conditions ? ...I have never been so sure on this. I have heard of fish in excess of 5 pounds on the continent but details are always sketchy. The Ebro I heard was throwing up some big ones for instance but I am not sure they are held in the same sort of awe as we give them in the Uk. For example I once watched a guy, a Carper, kick back (physically kick) a Roach that looked every inch a 3 that he caught by accident from a river on a bolie . He appeared more impressed with a Pike of about 8 pounds he caught on a lure later ...

Back in the Uk, I dont want to mess up anyone's fishing but it does surprise me we don't hear more talk about the South East. Unless I am mistaken or its been beaten Britain's s 2nd biggest river Roach came from a small river down that way....

 

[watatoad]

I have just been E-mailed with a short message that John Bailey refers to 1lb, 2lb and 3lb and 3lb 8oz Roach being caught in a book called 'Roach - the gentle giants' and refers to a whole list of river you can catch them in and some of the angler's who catch them.

 

[Tee-Cee]

Whilst on the subject of hemp....

I usually buy mine in bulk (from Jollyes) for general feed so the the seeds are small and consequently not really good enough IMO for quality hookbait. I read about 'Frenzied hemp' but have never bought it so can anyone tell me its qualities include extra large seed or not (as its quite expensive)??

I will check myself but if anyone can recommend where I might buy large, top quality seed in bulk (regardless of price) I'd rather go by personal experience than take a flyer!!

Thanks and sorry if I've highjacked the thread..........................its been a good one!

 

[dezza]

In my opinion the best hemseed around is "Super Seed" which comes in a 710 gm can at £2.50.

You can of course buy your own uncooked hemp, but by the time you have simmered it, worked out the extra cost on your electricity bill an put up with the stink, you may as well get a can of cooked hemp.

 

[mark halsey]

I do think that some waters can be overlooked and there may be huge roach not pursued.

There is a small upper river (not the Wandle, that's another story) reserved for trout in the South East not that far from London that was polluted, and roach in numbers to 3.4 turned up - unfortunately dead.

This is a river you can virtually jump across. It is a chalk stream. This info was validated by an impeccable source whose works for the authorities dealing with the aftermath.

This river is well fished for coarse fish downstream and does produce roach.... but nothing to get excited about.

If you judged the river on downstream catches you would give it a few sessions, maybe a season and move on. Yet a few miles upstream, where it is left untapped and frankly is too small to grab attention, it's potential was huge.

Mark

 

[dezza]

Some interesting facts by Henry Coxon on Trent roach:

"The largest roach I ever remember being caught with rod and line on the Trent, weighed 2 1/4 lbs. It was taken in the deep water, in winter. off the Erewash mouth in the Barton Fishery. Soon afterwards, in the Weston Fishery, Mr. J. Theaker, the well known Nottingham tackle dealer, caught a brace of roach in a day with worm, that weighed 1lb 14 3/4oz and 1lb 13 1/2oz respectively.

The Trent Otter once commented that he had never seen a Trent roach over 2 lbs.

The biggest Trent roach I ever caught weighed 1lb 11oz, weighed on my 0-4lbs Little Samsons, and came from what we used to call the "Sandbank" near where Cottam Power Station is today. It meant a 20 minute walk across 2 fields from Cottam Railway Station, if I remember right. In those days the Tidal Trent held large numbers of good roach and dace, even though it was grossly polluted in parts with raw sewage. Cottam was the first place I ever saw the Aegir.

I'll never forget that smell!

 

[Mark Wintle]

Mark,

I suspect I missed the "big" roach years - only being qualified since 1992. Interestingly some of the biggest hybrids I eluded to earlier were from the Test, and I suspect when carrying spawn, they could have gone well over 4.... Very roachy but not roach....
No doubt there are still a few biggies kicking about somewhere in the Avon catchment and I guess with lower stocks a 4 might be possible.
There are a number of rivers with 3s in them but I think the bit of water in your avatar might be the best place for a real river 3 at the moment (although even here I guess it's not what it was, as I saw a cormorant have a near 2 a couple of winters ago...). , although I do hope Toady comes up with a couple of Suffolk crackers this autumn/winter.

I had to take the EA 2001 fishery survey results (the two over 4lbs - no pictures) at face value given that there was (or I expect there was) an EA biologist present. I'd hope that whoever he was (it would take time to find the cutting in a drawer full of similar cuttings) would spot the obvious roach x bream, and have a chance of spotting a roach x rudd, though the latter can be difficult. What sort of hybrids are you aware of in the Test?

There are still 2lbers in the local rivers to me but 3lbers very thin on the ground - if I catch one 2lber this season I shall be happy! Big roach run in cycles and predation and other problems are not helping one bit as far as big roach are concerned.

The SE water alluded to - the Beult - reported produced some very big fish in the 80s but expert opinion is that these fish were entirely hybrids.

Bailey's book dates back to the mid 1980s and was a good reflection of how it was then.

 

[no-one in particular]

Re: BIG ROACH and small streams in the south east

My best spot for big roach is a very small rivulet in the south east. It is about 2-6 or 7 foot in width and is about 2 or 3 feet deep. Does flood sometimes though. All in all this has produced the most good roach compared with the other 6 or 7 waters I regularly fish. These big roach only come on occasionaly though but, if the conditions are right for roach I uaually head for it. It is ignored by locals but, I just thought i would mention this as it supports the earlier points about small streams and good roach fishing.

 

[dezza]

if I catch one 2lber this season I shall be happy

If I catch a 1 1/2 pounder this winter I shall also be very happy.

But based on the events of the last couple of weeks, I get the impression that a 1lb Trent dace might be a more feasable target than a 2 lb Trent roach.

 

[watatoad]

I am hoping to be loaned a copy of John Bailey's book in the next few days.

Although to slip back more into the original thread until Mark Wintle produced his new classic work on Roach hardly anyone has really given Roach a thought in the best part of 20 years, or if John Bailey's work was written around the end of the time average angler was giving Roach any serious thought it must be nearer 35 years. Except for a very few out of touch anglers who like me have continued to chase Roach regardless and I have been chasing them for over 57 years...hehehe

Sure I have chased other species as well in fact every other species in our British waters with fairly considerable success, but in my opinion I have found none that can compare to the craftiness of the Roach nor the subtleties and exacting methods required by the larger Roach, which is why I have always considered them the most elusive and exclusive of species to catch. Even today there are waters without Chub, Bream or Rudd where the Roach can be found pure and unsullied without contamination from cross breeding with other species. places where the 20 plus year old Roach can still be found it just takes a little dedication and a lot of determination but they are there, needing you to only search them out.

Just as we have seen the dramatic demise of anglers fishing rivers generally over the last 20 years as they have all headed off to the more productive commercial lakes or have been chasing species that are known for being capable of much larger weights, perhaps it is this almost guarantee of larger fish that has and is attracting more and more anglers to look at Carp as a starting point in their pursuit of a lifetimes challenging sport of angling and who can blame them.

Many talk of cycles of species and here I strongly disagree believing in cycles in anglers tastes and tackle manufacturers products are more likely than cycles in fish habits. Evolution does not work quite like that. Added to the belief that the majority of anglers are lazy and many these days simply want to and I hate the expression bag-up or catch larger and larger almost hand fed and reared Carp. Sorry but to me and in my opinion that is no more angling than a garden gnome does with a fishing rod in a back garden pond, which is probably why my close circle of angling friends call Carp chasers Gnomes.

I was about 10 years old when I watched the capture, playing and landing of the largest Roach I have ever seen by a man I consider to be the greatest angler I have ever seen or known, who at that time was in his 60's on what we today would consider truly barbaric tackle. He was not a man to write or claim records, he could hardly read or write and although as he said the fish was the fish of a lifetime he was hardly more pleased than he was when watching him catching any fish in good health and great condition of any species. Yes the fish was weighed and well witnessed but never spoken of until this moment. Photographed hehehe no chance there were very very few anglers who had cameras in those days, the average angler did not even have a telephone in his house as for any angler with a camera well that was as unusual as catching a flying fish in the Thames or finding a hen with teeth or poo under a rocking horse...hehehe

Perhaps Mark Wintle's book will be the herald of another cycle in angling in British waters and stimulate and enthuse others to give the rivers and or floats a new cycle of life and interest. I for one do hope so as I think many are missing what being an angler and angling is really all about.

Sure there are some who enjoy knocking my standards of weights and terminology and implying I am full of Bulls**t or just a liar, as I have already stated I don't care. As to me those detractors are not even novices in our great sport, just people who judge others by their personal standards so to them I say look in the mirror before slagging out what you know nothing about. Remember there may be more than some who reading your derogatory comments look upon you in the same light I do. To give it out you must always be ready to take it.

 

[Philip]

The SE water alluded to - the Beult - reported produced some very big fish in the 80s but expert opinion is that these fish were entirely hybrids

Didnt know that. What were the Hybrids supposed to be Mark ? ...entirely Hybrids ?

I liked the points people made about the small rivers...the way I look at things now is that if I think it could hold a 2lb pound Chub then it can hold a 2lb Roach too...

 

[watatoad]

The SE water alluded to - the Beult - reported produced some very big fish in the 80s but expert opinion is that these fish were entirely hybrids.

Bailey's book dates back to the mid 1980s and was a good reflection of how it was then.

I do not doubt the experts opinion although I sould like to know if they either caught or examined the 'big fish' reported to have come out of the Beult or if they were simply expressing an opinion at some time perhaps a considerable time after the captures.

I have as yet not seen a copy of John Bailey's book Roach the gentle giants in what must be over twenty years. I lent it to one of my friends that long ago (so be warned when lending books...hehehe) although I have already ordered another copy albeit secondhand, I shall have a borrowed copy sometime Sunday which I shall quickly read through. I have no doubts of on Mark Wintle's accuracy as to the date of the publication. Surely though all that means is that Roach have simply not been a major target of anglers between the two publications and John Bailey's book would have been produced around the time of the move to Barbel, Carp and Pike by many specimen hunters, which immediately proceeded the real beginning of the great Carp interest and the advent of the commercials.

Carp had themselves moved briefly to a quieter place during the time of the Bream and Roach interest, Tench have always been a fish less to the fore as a popular specimen hunters target. Here please allow me to define my use of the term popular specimen hunter here I mean general anglers who will target a particular species because the angling press and famous anglers make it a popular species. True or dedicated specimen hunters are a completely different type of angler no better nor any worse than any angler although extremely dedicated possibly to the point of being fanatical in pursuit of their quarry and even to this day unbelieveably secretive.

Some specimen hunters have over the years wanted to promote their personal interests to the general angler and one way they tried to do this was by creating a single species club or association which naturally not all specimen hunters ever even considered joining.

 

[mark halsey]

There have been other books dedicated to roach. Mark Everards huge book, and John Searls book - chalkstream roach.

An earlier book (than Baileys) I highly rate dedicated to roach is David Carl Forbes' book.

I look forward to reading Marks book when it arrives - I enjoyed Marks chapter in John Searls book - that particular chapter being a very direct and discecting piece of work based upon results, not fantasy or poetic flights of fancy. lol

I'm very grateful that persons spend hundreds of hours committing their knowledge and research into a book that has a limited print run of 500 or so - hardly a money making enterprise if you divide any profit by hours expended.

Rgds

Mark

 

[watatoad]

There have been other books dedicated to roach. Mark Everards huge book, and John Searls book - chalkstream roach.

An earlier book (than Baileys) I highly rate dedicated to roach is David Carl Forbes' book.

I look forward to reading Marks book when it arrives - I enjoyed Marks chapter in John Searls book - that particular chapter being a very direct and discecting piece of work based upon results, not fantasy or poetic flights of fancy. lol

I'm very grateful that persons spend hundreds of hours committing their knowledge and research into a book that has a limited print run of 500 or so - hardly a money making enterprise if you divide any profit by hours expended.

Rgds

Mark

I fully agree and will go so far as to say I believe the dedication shown by all those non famous authors who write a book dedicated to any single specimen must be truly dedicated people who have worked so hard for what must end up being pennies an hour deserve our appreciation.

Although in the case of Mark Wintles's I personally hope it is a book that has to have many,many reprints as I feel it is an invaluable book not just for those crazy Roach chasers but for all who want to understand more of angling in stream, river or lake. Offering many insites to the secrets of our British inland waters.

I thoroughly enjoyed the book and suggest you all go out and get yourselves a copy then write to the publishers asking when the second book written by Mark Wintle will be ready...hehehe...sorry Mark Wintle but you have just got to get busy writting it.