the ethics of commercials!

[mark brailsford 2]

I have been thinking lately about the way commercial fishery owners stock their waters in the interests of making a fast buck!
Has a fish keeper I know that to over stock an aquarium with fish means that you are going to have problems not only with fish health, but also with over crowding. I am able to over stock my tanks just a little as I have good powerfull filtration and plenty of surface movement (for gas exchange) but I would never dream of over crowding as I believe in giving my fish a good environment to live in. What I am getting at is the fact that some fishery owners don't really give a stuff about the fish as long as they bring in the dosh! Surly anyone with a conscience would not fish these waters if the cared about the fish in them?
As a matter of interest, in an aquarium, one inch of fish need 2 cubic litres of water!
What are your opinions on this guys?

mark

 

[PitsfordPirate]

It aint easy to make a buck when a fishery owner Mark, especially if they don't sell tackle and bait.

The ones I know personally say the only real money in it for them is the tackle and bait.

I remember one saying to me a number of years ago, if you wanna make a million as a fishery owner, start with two million!

The Pirate.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

You may attract some flack here, as everyone likes their own thing and not to be told what is best for them.

I keep fish too, and agree with your point.

Theres two things about the puddles that i find hardest to stomach:

1) putting barbel in them and 2) putting in tagged fish to win tackle vouchers/prize money - i kid you not i heard of this in one such place "to attract youngsters into fishing" I think there was one fish with a £1000 tag on it.

 

[Simon K]

As a matter of interest, in an aquarium, one inch of fish need 2 cubic litres of water!

"Cubic litre"?

Although there are two ways to calculate maximum aquarium stock density, surface area and litres, I tend to go with the latter, 1 inch of fish to 5 litres.

I'd say it's a little difficult to answer your question without actually knowing the litres capacity of any given water along with the actual numbers and sizes of fish.
Who knows, they might broadly fall well within the maximum?

I think it's more our perception as anglers that defines our attitudes to Commercials. If you were to follow the aquarium analogy, overstocked venues would suffer continual large-scale fish-kills through lethal ammonia and nitrite levels. Too many fish producing too much excreta and rotting, uneaten food.

They don't as far as I'm aware?

 

[chub_on_the_block]

If you were to follow the aquarium analogy, overstocked venues would suffer continual large-scale fish-kills through lethal ammonia and nitrite levels. Too many fish producing too much excreta and rotting, uneaten food.

They don't as far as I'm aware?

I think that does happen, but is usually prevented by permanent fountains or pumping water as soon as gasping fish are observed in hot weather, during which time the fishery may be closed. May happen in any pond though - not just commercials...

 

[Neil Maidment]

All depends on the definition of "a commercial"! :wh Some of the best fisheries in the land are commercials and some of those are lakes and ponds!

There are those that have been around for many years and have consistently provided a quality responsible product for a large slice of the angling market.

It is the opposite of that description that cause the problems with owners looking for a quick fix as they try and convert a piece of dormant land into a income earner. Often with disastrous results. It takes time, effort and no little investment to create a consistent quality venue.

Even the best of the best will face problems and issues with fish care, natural events and some sections of the great unwashed British public, that may require drastic actions.

But a good "commercial" is usually a very well managed operation. After all the idea is to have an operation that generates an income for the owners/investors. Get it wrong and anglers of all persuasions usually vote with their feet.

Talking of aquaria and fish keeping.... A bag of "fishery pellets" and a method feeder might work here:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7deClndzQw]Kuroshio Sea - 2nd largest aquarium tank in the world - (song is Please don't go by Barcelona) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[bennygesserit]

I know how to solve this

Rather than stocking more fish to give that catching experience - give free coaching.
There is a commercial I go to and at 3:00 pm the fish all come in to the margins , I have had 18 carp in hour and a half , and discounting all the discussion about skill levels and thats not fishing etc etc, I loved it.

I went last week and got the fish swirling around my float at 3:30 but couldn't get a bite , discussing this on gofishing I have come to the conclusion that because I was only feeding pellets as opposed to the casters corn and meat I normally feed , that they were probably gill feeding.

So If I was a better angler then I would have caught.

On another thread someone mentioned outfishing the normal commercial angler every time they go.
I have seen one of the baliffs at Coppice catch a carp every 5 minutes when everyone else was blanking and he has done this on various pegs. A lot of the punters on commercials moan and say "he must have took some of the fish out" when in reality I think its because we all use the same method - plumb up 8 m out , fish on the bottom and feed over the top.

At another commercial I fish you can regularly see fish swirling on the edge of an island - its out of reach of my pole but anyone who was half decent with their feeder casting would probably make a killing.

So if the anglers at a commercial got free coaching then the stocking levels could be reduced, I ask the baliffs a lot at commercials and you usually get some advice but not a great deal.

 

[chubby48]

all comercials are bothered about is matchmen and silly carp---they should all be made to have oxygen pumps in the water---and wen its hot ban carp being put in nets

 

[Simon K]

There are plenty of barbel anglers who fish for their chosen species in High Summer/Early Autumn when rivers are low in water and oxygen levels. The same could be said of them.

"A fish at any cost" cuts right across the board, not just so-called Commercials.

 

[904_cannon]

Almost took the words from my mouth, Chubby48

Whenever there is a problem; either with a water, stocking density, rule breaking or a simple club management issue, you can bet the word 'carp' enters the discussion somewhere.

Carp are to angling what Amstrad was to the TV/Video servicing industry

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

There are plenty of barbel anglers who fish for their chosen species in High Summer/Early Autumn when rivers are low in water and oxygen levels. The same could be said of them.

"A fish at any cost" cuts right across the board, not just so-called Commercials.

I think you'll find that a lot of waters controlled by anglers (syndicates etc) do have fishing restrictions when water/temp levels are such as to put the fish under undue pressure/stress.

 

[scottt]

"Cubic litre"?

Although there are two ways to calculate maximum aquarium stock density, surface area and litres, I tend to go with the latter, 1 inch of fish to 5 litres.

I would rather go with surface area to be safe. Say a tank 6ft x 2 x 2 has a surface area of 12sqft, turn the same sized tank on its end, the volume doesnt change but you now have a surface area of 4sqft, if you stocked them both the same the one with the smaller surface area would be harder to keep the fish in without more filtration/airation etc.

As for overcrowding in fish tanks, Malawi cichlids are often (highly recomended) kept over crowded without any problems.



The issue of overstocking commercials, well a few years ago an angler catching 100lb was front page news, now its expected. They have helped angling very much but some how ruined things along the way, much like x factor, once over you learned to play an instrument, wrote songs worked hard for years and if you got lucky along the way you might sell a hit record, now getting a No1 record is the prize on a tv game show, kind of spoils it doesnt it, commercials have done that for angling with heavy overstockings.

 

[chav professor]

I would be reluctant to have bans or heavy legislation placed on commercial fisheries. A good business model will certainly ensure that fatalities are kept to a minimum as fish stocks are expensive.

I also think we have to be careful when considering 'fish welfare'. this is a potentially contentious issue. Current scientific thinking is that fish do not feel pain in a way that higher organisms experience it. By stating that fish in commercials are in some way suffering flys in the face of reason really. if anything, some species thrive in comercials e.g. specimen sized perch and eels. further more, I can't see why barbel in still waters are seen as anything other than a fish stocking really.

What does annoy the hell out of me is when I occasionally read a weekly fishing magazine there is always a letter from 'Mr Angry' stating that barbed hooks, live baiting, braided hook links - whatever - should be banned because they are 'barbaric'.

I can only imagine that the 'mr Angry' who put pen to paper fishes commercial fisheries on a regular basis and thinks that having upto two boards of bans and fishery rules is good for fish welfare.........

Commercial fisheries????? Not for me. but I would not want someone being judgemental over the way i enjoy my fishing - so live and let live.

 

[jimmy crackedcorn]

all comercials are bothered about is matchmen and silly carp---they should all be made to have oxygen pumps in the water---and wen its hot ban carp being put in nets

Rhubarb. If a commie is so reliant on matches, it's in the owners interest to keep them in decent nick. It isn't cost effective to keep restocking - and if it does happen word gets round and the fishery, as far as I can see gets blackballed anyway. More are stocking more in the way of skimmers roach and ide so the matchmen have something to go at when it's cold.

 

[Graham Marsden]

The balanced view is that there are good commercials and bad commercials, good non-commercials and bad non-commercials.

Jimmy is spot on, if a fishery owner is only interested in the profit he can make then it makes sense to sell a good product and keep that product in the best condition possible. And that means the fishery and the fish.

 

[bails]

There are many commercial fiheries that focus on fish health. I like to think that most anglers enjoy nature at it's best. Maybe the commercial owners should advertise their focus on fish health.

 

[mark brailsford 2]

As for overcrowding in fish tanks, Malawi cichlids are often (highly recomended) kept over crowded without any problems.

been there done that with Malawi cichlids, spent a fortune stocking my tank with all the fish at once, and still had fighting!!!!

 

[beerweasel]

An 8 inch Oscar in a tank of Neon Tetras and Guppies is fun to watch. :wh

 

[little oik]

I only had 300lb the other day .Can you please tell me where I am going wrong :wh

 

[bails]

You'd never get to 200lb on my water! It' not a commercial though

 

[waggy]

The old aquarist rule of thumb, before aerators, etc, used to be 1" of fish per square foot (3"x4") to be on the safe side. Only still water species were deemed safe to keep in an aq. though
The problems with keeping fish safely in stocked open waters are many: What kind and how many is just one whole raft of problems. Keeping enough fish to make sure anglers catch something is another. Allowing ground bait fouling is yet another. Flow of replenishing and outlet water is another.
The geometry of stocking lakes is another in terms of surface area, edge length, orientation to aerating winds, surrounding vegetation, pond vegetation,
type of algal growth, capture of sunlight, etc.
In hot summers, in ponds with aerobic surface layers with good planktonic growth but having anaerobic bottoms, nocturnal deoxygenation can cause major fish kills of some species.
It takes a lot of skill to balance all these factors and I suppose industrial scale aerators are not just a lazy way out but sometimes necessary to thwart the unexpected potential disaster. But I suspect the biggest driving force to bad practice may be the profit motive.