Rudd/bream hybrid

[mol]

Rudd/bream hybrid?

 

[rabglasgow]

what did you catch it on its a cracker

 

[mol]

Double red maggot on a feeder rig with a very long tail as they seem to shy off feeders, was planning on fishing the sliding waggler but it was blowing a houligan. The only fish of the day over 2oz

 

[andreagrispi]

Good fish. I've had Rudd/bream hybrids to 4lb 1oz in the past - beautiful looking fish they are to look at.

 

[dangermouse]

No idea what it is but it`s a lovely looking fish. I`d be more than happy to fish in a pond full of those.

 

[S-Kippy]

I really wouldn't like to guess what that is.Very odd but a lovely looking fish nonetheless.

 

[Mark Wintle]

I think it's a roach x yellow-fin rudd hence the lack of red in the fins. I'm getting someone else to take a look, too. A rudd x bream would probably have a higher scale count along the lateral line.

 

[mol]

I think it's a roach x yellow-fin rudd hence the lack of red in the fins. I'm getting someone else to take a look, too. A rudd x bream would probably have a higher scale count along the lateral line.

Cheers Mark, appreciated.

Never heard of yellow finned rudd. Just seen the pic that you posted up on here a while back.

 

[beerweasel]

Sorry it doesn't look like a true hybrid to me, maybe it's a hybrid/hybrid.

 

[S-Kippy]

I think it's a roach x yellow-fin rudd hence the lack of red in the fins. I'm getting someone else to take a look, too. A rudd x bream would probably have a higher scale count along the lateral line.

That's interesting because if pushed I'd have said its a rudd but without red fins.

 

[barbelboi]

The lack of redness in the fins didn't help me - I thought I'd wait and see what others suggested:wh
Jerry

 

[Mark Wintle]

I'm at a slight advantage in that Mol sent me a picture of the fish from the other side. The main slightly 'non-rudd' feature is the mouth which is possibly indicating a hybrid ie the lips seem to be equal in length.

One water I fished a fair bit the last 4 years has both normal and golden rudd (about 50:50) plus roach. It also has plenty of roach x rudd but I never saw any golden hybrids. The yellow-fin rudd are much rarer so a hybrid with the fins lacking any red is going to be extremely rare.

 

[barbelboi]

Interesting call Mark, I've certainly not seen 'one of those' before.
Jerry

 

[mol]

Slightly better one of the mouth. I don't believe I sent you this one Mark, my hand covers all the fish but the mouth is clearest on this picture

Out of interest Mark, what key features are you looking for to tell the species and hybrids apart? I've been googling it but struggle to find anything more than the real basics.

 

[Alan Tyler]

The big, dark centres of the scales say "chub", the position of the dorsal fin, waaay back, says "rudd", and the mouth says "roach". What a mixture. Hybrid x hybrid? Roach/rudd x chub/rudd? Is the latter even possible?
Go and catch it again, and get it's DNA analysed!

 

[Mark Wintle]

The key features, which vary from species to species, are shape of mouth, lateral line scale count, relative position of dorsal to pelvic fins, fin ray counts, ventral keel, position of eye relative to snout, and to a much lesser degree, colouration (easily corrupted by photography). Some hybrids are easy to spot eg roach x bream but others, like this one, are more difficult. I have hundreds of pics of hybrids and also the parent species so have something to compare with, and also have several scientific papers on hybrids which have base-line figures for scale counts etc. Even the same type of hybrids vary a lot in appearance, and a hybrid with parents of male roach and female rudd won't necessarily be the same as one with parents of female roach and male rudd even from the same water - there is a view that maternal characteristics tend to dominate.

I catch hybrids regularly on the waters I fish, usually roach x bream but also rudd x bream, roach x rudd, occasionally silver bream x roach and silver bream x rudd, and have also had various crucian/carp/goldfish hybrids.

I referred this fish to another very experienced angler who has a similar interest in hybrids and he is also of the opinion that this is a roach x rudd. Bear in mind it's only an opinion and it would take a DNA test to be much more certain!

I investigated hybrids a fair bit for my Big Roach book, and that has a section in it with scale counts and how to distinguish roach hybrids, as well as some interesting pics of hybrids ( three of roach x chub).

 

[mol]

The big, dark centres of the scales say "chub", the position of the dorsal fin, waaay back, says "rudd", and the mouth says "roach". What a mixture. Hybrid x hybrid? Roach/rudd x chub/rudd? Is the latter even possible?
Go and catch it again, and get it's DNA analysed!

I would figure there would be chub in the lake. The river feeds two lakes on the complex, I know for sure chub are in one but I'm unsure about the lake I was fishing. Seeing as the security measures are the same to stop fish movement on both lakes it would seems a given that chub would be in both.

 

[mark barrett 2]

What the hell is a yellow finned rudd? There's no such thing as far as I can find in any fishing references or is this just a coloquial term for a darker finned rudd?

 

[Mark Wintle]

What the hell is a yellow finned rudd? There's no such thing as far as I can find in any fishing references or is this just a coloquial term for a darker finned rudd?

Yellow-fin rudd are extremely rare. I've had two that I actually recognised and photographed one of them. Somewhere on FM there is that pic in a brief article which I'll look for in a minute.

Walker refers to them in his '**** Walker's Coarse Fishing' P116 quote 'in which the ventral, anal and tail fins are bright yellow instead of red...'.

---------- Post added at 08:38 ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 ----------

Here's the yellow-finned rudd:

http://www.fishingmagic.com/news_events/catchreports/12069-a-rare-fish-the-yellow-finned-rudd.html

 

[mark barrett 2]

I have too caught thousands of rudd over the years and never seen one like that but I dont buy it being a seperate sub species, if that was the inference, my apologies if it wasnt, rather more theres some genetic issue regarding pigmentation thats likely to be the cause.