Morning to all, just a thought i have read in a few places that on a river particularly small ones, it's best not to return the chub/roach to the same swim they were caught out of as they spook the rest of the shoal? Any thoughts ideas? Any truth or just a tale?
Spooky chub?
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Baz (Angel of the North)
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I think I can safely say that I have done well from both situations. At ths time of year, I have found chub tightly shoaled up and had a really good day either by putting them in a keepnet or releasing them further downstream. You can sometimes get a feel of if you are onto a shoal or just the odd one or two in each swim. I have watched them when I have released them downstream from myself. They allways go straight back to the shoal.
On one particular day, you could catch and release all day in the same spot and it woudn't make any difference. Next time you could spook the lot.
On one particular day, you could catch and release all day in the same spot and it woudn't make any difference. Next time you could spook the lot.
Paul Martin 5
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I agree with Baz and on some days the same fish has come out more than once.
chavender
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its because chub communicate in pretty much the same way as herrings do ,so if a chub is released strait away ,and the shock of being caught out by the old fluffy bread trick yet again ! they communcate their worries over the bread issue too the other chub .thats why they're kept in the old keepnet so they can getit out of their system before going home.And they're released further down stream again so they can safely signal their woe's before re-entering the shoal !
chub can be very skittish at times !
chub can be very skittish at times !
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Bob "chubber"Lancaster (ACA)
Guest
yes i agree, the times when you want to return a chub away from your swim is when your on tiny rivers, Then sometimes they spook. People also get confused with the fact that you can already spook them while playing a fish if you dont get it away from the shoal soon enough. A point to remember.
Matthew Beddows
New member
It would be difficult to evaluate whether a swim going ‘dead’ was the result specifically of returning a captured fish back to the same swim and it disturbing the rest of the shoal, or other factors that would have limited the action regardless. The process of playing and landing a fish, particularly in tight swims and the inevitable bank disturbance caused by the angler could spook a shoal in itself. The appearance of a large predator, such as a pike, cormorant, or mink could change the whole shoal feeding dynamic, at least for a short time; even a deterioration in weather conditions could have an impact. Returning fish upstream of your swim, fifty yards downstream or even back to the same swim possibly has no relevance - that chub may well find its way back to its shoal mates far quicker than we think. But I really don’t know, and it’s difficult to say how anyone can ever know for sure. I think Baz is right and it does depend on the day - chub certainly can be unpredictable.
Single hook bait fishing will never really give you an idea of a swim’s potential chub-numbers wise - taking one fish from a swim, returning it but then not having another bite won’t be because it has put the rest on their guard - it’s because they were on their guard in the first place, and unless they’re completely unfished for chub will never smash into every big lone bait as soon as it‘s introduced; large chub willusually retain a degree of caution in these situations, and why 'resting' swims isbeneficial.
Chub become far more predictable when correct feeding is employed, and in particular the correct feeding of mass baits. If all the basics of watercraft are adhered to and a swim is approached with the necessary stealth, then how that swim is fed will generally be the deciding factor in taking numbers of fish. If you get this right the chub’s fears will be allayed enough for even the commotion resulting from playing, landing and returningto have little or no effect. As a shoal fish the nature of their existence is to always be in competition with their fellows - the fact that their companions are disappearing then re-appearing will be secondary totheir immediate needfor optimising a constant food source - your bait. In some instances even a stealthy approach isn't needed. Some feeder anglers i've witnessed are verynoisy on the bank,but catch a lot of fish when sitting on a shoal because the method, in the right hands feedsoff and nullifies the chub's natural caution.
I’ve also read that returning chub back to the swim they were caught from is especially important in small rivers. But the logic should really apply to all rivers no matter what their size. How roach are affected I have even less of an idea - I haven’t caught enough good ones to form an opinion either way.
Single hook bait fishing will never really give you an idea of a swim’s potential chub-numbers wise - taking one fish from a swim, returning it but then not having another bite won’t be because it has put the rest on their guard - it’s because they were on their guard in the first place, and unless they’re completely unfished for chub will never smash into every big lone bait as soon as it‘s introduced; large chub willusually retain a degree of caution in these situations, and why 'resting' swims isbeneficial.
Chub become far more predictable when correct feeding is employed, and in particular the correct feeding of mass baits. If all the basics of watercraft are adhered to and a swim is approached with the necessary stealth, then how that swim is fed will generally be the deciding factor in taking numbers of fish. If you get this right the chub’s fears will be allayed enough for even the commotion resulting from playing, landing and returningto have little or no effect. As a shoal fish the nature of their existence is to always be in competition with their fellows - the fact that their companions are disappearing then re-appearing will be secondary totheir immediate needfor optimising a constant food source - your bait. In some instances even a stealthy approach isn't needed. Some feeder anglers i've witnessed are verynoisy on the bank,but catch a lot of fish when sitting on a shoal because the method, in the right hands feedsoff and nullifies the chub's natural caution.
I’ve also read that returning chub back to the swim they were caught from is especially important in small rivers. But the logic should really apply to all rivers no matter what their size. How roach are affected I have even less of an idea - I haven’t caught enough good ones to form an opinion either way.
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Baz (Angel of the North)
Guest
How was it that they described the Chub On the programme A Passion For Angling?
Chub can be the most enigmatic of all fishes, "Was it Walton" meaning puzzling and perplexing.
Chub can be the most enigmatic of all fishes, "Was it Walton" meaning puzzling and perplexing.
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john conway (CSG - ACA)
Guest
I have to agree with everything Matthew say regarding Chub and have nothing else to add to his very good logical argument, other than to say that all my Chub on the Ribble are returned to the same swim and that I move on while fishing small rivers because I've caused too much disturbance while landing the fish.
Poshpaul (Angling Trust and PaSC)
Moderator
Thank you for a really enlightening thread. Plenty to think about,especially the point on a single big bait.
The unpredictable nature of chub came home last week. A regularly productive swim on the Dane - a "banker" for a couple during a day- was not producing a twitch. The river was low and clear although I have had fish from this swim mid-afternoon in similar circumstances. Moved elsewhere; on way back to car - thought I'd try a couple of casts - in rapidly decreasing light (not strictly dark - honest) - result 2 clonking bites and a pair of chub both around a couple of pounds in under 10 minutes. I have no doubt those fish had always been there - had seen a couple of swirls in the "cage " of branches when I'd fed earlier.
I was sure the clarity of water and light levels were the crucial factors..now I'll sit and reassess.
The unpredictable nature of chub came home last week. A regularly productive swim on the Dane - a "banker" for a couple during a day- was not producing a twitch. The river was low and clear although I have had fish from this swim mid-afternoon in similar circumstances. Moved elsewhere; on way back to car - thought I'd try a couple of casts - in rapidly decreasing light (not strictly dark - honest) - result 2 clonking bites and a pair of chub both around a couple of pounds in under 10 minutes. I have no doubt those fish had always been there - had seen a couple of swirls in the "cage " of branches when I'd fed earlier.
I was sure the clarity of water and light levels were the crucial factors..now I'll sit and reassess.
Matthew Beddows
New member
John,
You're right, and the approach you take on small rivers is mine also. The expectation is to usually catch one or two fish from the better swims (if i'm lucky!) before moving on. Smaller groups of fish, the knowledge that some disturbance will put any remaining fish on their guard means moving on is probably the best option - with a return later on.
Judging the number and size of the chub in any given swim is the key. This isn’t such a problem on the small rivers I fish because the bigger fish are very few and far between and usually occupy swims with no more than half a dozen chub in them. That scenario is perfect for the big-bait / roving approach - optimising the dusk period, rotation priming of swims with mashed bread or a few hook samples etc. This is classic chub fishing that many of us practice, and I’ll never tire of.
It’s when you have a bigger shoal of chub in front of you, and consisting of much larger individual specimens that the feeding is key. This scenario is one I, and friends have met with numerous times on bigger rivers like the Dorset Stour and Thames, and in the past I would fish them in exactly the same way as I’ve described for the smaller rivers. And you get very similar results - one or two fish here and there, move on, and so on. In fact, most of my biggest fish have come from the first cast made into a new swim -a cautious approach with a big, single hook bait maybe catching these extra wary fish unawares, I don’t know? The potential for these swims is, however, far greater. I don’t really enjoy feeder fishing, can do it but it’s just a personal thing, and while I know it is a devastating method I much prefer to exploit the main weakness in the chub’s natural defence armoury - the fact that they just cannot resist a bait falling naturally through the water. And float fishing, summer or winter can be devastating. This whole subject would merit a whole response on its own, but what I would say Paul, those fish you saw swirling earlier in the day were probably eating everything in sight, and were probably very catchable even in the brightest, clearest of water conditions.
Matt
You're right, and the approach you take on small rivers is mine also. The expectation is to usually catch one or two fish from the better swims (if i'm lucky!) before moving on. Smaller groups of fish, the knowledge that some disturbance will put any remaining fish on their guard means moving on is probably the best option - with a return later on.
Judging the number and size of the chub in any given swim is the key. This isn’t such a problem on the small rivers I fish because the bigger fish are very few and far between and usually occupy swims with no more than half a dozen chub in them. That scenario is perfect for the big-bait / roving approach - optimising the dusk period, rotation priming of swims with mashed bread or a few hook samples etc. This is classic chub fishing that many of us practice, and I’ll never tire of.
It’s when you have a bigger shoal of chub in front of you, and consisting of much larger individual specimens that the feeding is key. This scenario is one I, and friends have met with numerous times on bigger rivers like the Dorset Stour and Thames, and in the past I would fish them in exactly the same way as I’ve described for the smaller rivers. And you get very similar results - one or two fish here and there, move on, and so on. In fact, most of my biggest fish have come from the first cast made into a new swim -a cautious approach with a big, single hook bait maybe catching these extra wary fish unawares, I don’t know? The potential for these swims is, however, far greater. I don’t really enjoy feeder fishing, can do it but it’s just a personal thing, and while I know it is a devastating method I much prefer to exploit the main weakness in the chub’s natural defence armoury - the fact that they just cannot resist a bait falling naturally through the water. And float fishing, summer or winter can be devastating. This whole subject would merit a whole response on its own, but what I would say Paul, those fish you saw swirling earlier in the day were probably eating everything in sight, and were probably very catchable even in the brightest, clearest of water conditions.
Matt
If i catch a chub from a swim i return the fish well up/down stream (a good 50 yrds)I then give the swim a good handful of mashed bread then fish other swims and dont return for a couple of hours.Today ive caught 9 chub in 8 hours using this method.I have probably walked over 6 miles.Most of the fish have just been hooked just inside the mouth giving 1-2 inch pulls on the quiver tip i probably would have caught more if i ha dent been so windy/forum/smilies/smile_smiley.gif
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Bob "chubber"Lancaster (ACA)
Guest
well done that man, thats the way to do it. Boy bet you had fun.
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Baz (Angel of the North)
Guest
I too fish the Dane like Paul. it is a small river and can be really clear. I have watched them approaching my freelined bait, only to back away from it for no apparant reason. So they obviously knew something was wrong. I could have sat there all day and they wouldn't have taken the bait.
A move of the bait of about twelve inches and Bang! they really go for it. That's chub for you. You may think you have it worked out, and then they prove you wrong.
A move of the bait of about twelve inches and Bang! they really go for it. That's chub for you. You may think you have it worked out, and then they prove you wrong.
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Baz (Angel of the North)
Guest
Let's face it.
If we knew the answers like we think we do, then we wouldn't have any blank sessions would we?
If we knew the answers like we think we do, then we wouldn't have any blank sessions would we?
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Bob "chubber"Lancaster (ACA)
Guest
chub fishing baz. You just never know mate. I always think the best part of chub fishing on a sunday morning, is the night before laying in bed thinking about whats going to happen. What bait to take , what approach to use, what swims , then on sunday morning driving down the the spot you picked , the blood in your viens sturing. But when its all over, the minuite its over, you cant wait to do it again. Thats chub fishin.
Guys thanks thanks for all the thoughts and experience,I posted the question this morning and only just been able to have a look now for the responses. I fish a small beautiful river and whilst walking past above it yesterday I was to discover another 3 miles of river i had never seen!!! Let alone fished!!! I can only dream of all the chub prospects that i am yet to discover, just a bit gutted the close season is nearly upon us!!!SORRY TO MENTION THAT! I will be doing my fair share of bank walking and fish spotting during the close season iin preperation for the glorious 16th!!
Totally agree with Bob and Baz.Spent 1 hour Saturday, mashed my bread up wondering what flavours to add to the mash,sorting all my gear out.Arrived at the Trent nice and early didnt see anther fisherman all day./forum/smilies/thinking_smiley.gifEvery Chubbing day is different and i like the challenge of finding what actually works that day.
A method ive been using over the last few seasons is as soon as you arrive at your swim throw a small ball of mash into your swim,then after a couple of minutes your hookbait (breadflake)Ive had a number of 5lbs and two 6lb Chub using this method/forum/smilies/big_smile_smiley.gif over the last two seasons./forum/smilies/big_smile_smiley.gif
A method ive been using over the last few seasons is as soon as you arrive at your swim throw a small ball of mash into your swim,then after a couple of minutes your hookbait (breadflake)Ive had a number of 5lbs and two 6lb Chub using this method/forum/smilies/big_smile_smiley.gif over the last two seasons./forum/smilies/big_smile_smiley.gif
Matthew Beddows
New member
That's the great thing about roving a stretch using mashed bread as feed - it really is such an enjoyable method, and it's so simple. You prime swims, fish them, maybe return to them later in the day. Dropping in a big bait on a light leger set-up is simplicity itself; you can take in the surroundings, and it's chub-fishing heaven.
I still fish big baits, but it all changed for me when i realised just how devastating and enjoyable light-line float fishing tactics could be, especially on the bigger rivers. Also, the bread way was no longer a challenge. I only get to fish once or twice a month - and there just didn't seem to be much scope for variance or subtlety with the mashed bread method. So the last two or three seasons i've concentrated on particle baits, both in very low clear water conditions and in winter. What I’ve learned more than anything is that chub much prefer loose-feed to groundbait. Groundbait works … but to watch chub react to correctly applied loose-fed particles, when a rhythm is established, is something to behold. It really is only what matchmen have been doing for years I suppose?
I still fish big baits, but it all changed for me when i realised just how devastating and enjoyable light-line float fishing tactics could be, especially on the bigger rivers. Also, the bread way was no longer a challenge. I only get to fish once or twice a month - and there just didn't seem to be much scope for variance or subtlety with the mashed bread method. So the last two or three seasons i've concentrated on particle baits, both in very low clear water conditions and in winter. What I’ve learned more than anything is that chub much prefer loose-feed to groundbait. Groundbait works … but to watch chub react to correctly applied loose-fed particles, when a rhythm is established, is something to behold. It really is only what matchmen have been doing for years I suppose?
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Bob "chubber"Lancaster (ACA)
Guest
I fished my local stretch a few weeks ago, its only about 30 yds long 3 ft deep and 8 yds wide. I fished it with mashed bread and then cheese past on a quiver. Caught 5 chub all around the 4 mark. Last week i fished the same swim the same way and the same bait. After 2 hours without a sniff , instead of going home i switched to a light float rig and trotted a single maggot down the same swim and bang 3 chub in no time at all. all around the 4 mark. You just never know with the crafty buggers do you.
Matthew Beddows
New member
Just proves the point Bob that the chub-fisherman with a whole raft of techniques at his/her disposal will always be in with a chance, no matter what the conditions on the day are.