Paste baits for chub

[chav professor]

Re: Pallatrax Products

A couple of posts on another thread about paste baits for chub got me thinking. One from Bigchub, talking of using a Dave Thorpe base mix and this one from Christian so I've copied the pertinent parts here.

Cheers

EC
---------------

Bollies and specialised pastes have a following - but I am yet to meet a competent angler who limits themselves to a singular bait approach. I would argue that as bait manufacturers produce baits with synthetic elements - not one has the draw and appeal of the humble earth worm. The draw back of the worm is that whilst a quality specialist bait..... perch of a few ounces are equally partial, so its not selective enough in a number of instances.

For versatility, not one commercially manufactured bait comes close to bread. Universally accepted by specimen roach, carp, and Chub of massive proportions. It can be torn to any size, fished on the surface, slow sinking or on the bottom. You can even get standard sliced bread to stay on the hook for upwards of an hour if you wish! A well known sponsored angler devised or publicized the use of 'floater' cake - utter madness!!!! But no doubt people bought into it and shifted a few units of bollie mix for said company.

Specialist pastes? If fish love halibut pellets so much, surely a simple paste made from ground pellets combined with eggs must work - it does!

 

[Berty]

Re: Pallatrax Products

Its all about being subjective...... If Tony Miles uses Pallatrax baits, its an endorsement that these baits are of a good enough quality to achieve what he wants on a particular water. But there is no illusion that he would not do as well on a Nutrabaits, Hookbait company, whatever bait. He uses them and promotes Pallatrax as he is a sponsored angler.... transparent really!

Bollies and specialised pastes have a following - but I am yet to meet a competent angler who limits themselves to a singular bait approach. I would argue that as bait manufacturers produce baits with synthetic elements - not one has the draw and appeal of the humble earth worm. The draw back of the worm is that whilst a quality specialist bait..... perch of a few ounces are equally partial, so its not selective enough in a number of instances.

For versatility, not one commercially manufactured bait comes close to bread. Universally accepted by specimen roach, carp, and Chub of massive proportions. It can be torn to any size, fished on the surface, slow sinking or on the bottom. You can even get standard sliced bread to stay on the hook for upwards of an hour if you wish! A well known sponsored angler devised or publicized the use of 'floater' cake - utter madness!!!! But no doubt people bought into it and shifted a few units of bollie mix for said company.

Specialist pastes? If fish love halibut pellets so much, surely a simple paste made from ground pellets combined with eggs must work - it does!

What annoys me is that if you read an article in a angling publication, it would be easy to imagine that you need to use 'brand X' or 'Brand Y'.... together with a load of specialized bait talk mumbo jumbo and pseudoscience substantiating 'an anglers justification' and faith in 'brand X's ' attributes. Very little is written on good angling using non-commercially manufactured baits - its all advertorials and reading the work of a paid 'mouth piece'..........

Whilst i agree with you on the whole i have to say i have seen specialist baits blow naturals away on a few occasions, in fact i have had barbel (up to 6!) feeding at my feet on home made pellets i had dropped!

Pellet paste was my first boilie, back in the 70's.

 

[Bluenose]

My experience is limited to cheesepaste and a 50/50 of munchies and pellets that I used (and caught) on the Dane many years ago.

Recently I've got a huge amount of dry powder (not the Columbian type) mainly old base mix leftovers, additives, fishmeals... alsorts of bits that I've accumulated over the years really which I've literally thrown together in a big bucket as a space saver, I'm intending on 'doing something' with this over the coming winter.

So those of you with experience of paste baits for chub, what is it that you use and what are your experiences of one paste vs another? Have you noticed any seasonal advantages of using a particular paste? What would you say were your successes and failures?

 

[chav professor]

To put this reposted comment into context, Boilles and specialist pastes do account for exceptional catches and have a place - I am quite happy to state that I use 3-B by hookbait company. I will also add that I buy this product with my own money.

Its just that I would never dream of using any manufactured product to the exclusion of standard baits. There is something about hemp, worms, cheese paste and bread that are inherently attractive to Chub that manufactured baits find hard to emulate.

The confidence gained through a baits 'application', 'nutritional profile', label' etc. are areas of pseudoscience that are based on supposition rather than hard concrete evidence and kind of cloud the issue of what actually works. The important thing is, that it does.

 

[Bluenose]

Christian, do you use the 3-B all year round? Is it always with you as an alternative to the usual baits?

Do you add any other flavours or use it neat as it were?

 

[bigchub]

With regards to special pastes and boilies for chub, I have seen them take the designer option over the standard baits time after time and this is not just an isolated incident in my fishing or many others. Once you have chub per-occupied with the taste of them they will take them over any other option bar none. On blazing hot summers days when others struggle for bites you can still catch. I don't take any pride in having done that on some stretches of river I've fished (it didn't make me very popular with the local anglers at the time), but it did prove a point to myself that these baits do work and are not just one hit wonders, or all hype. Yet in the manic month I caught all my big chub on the Ivel only one angler had the initiative to ask me why I was catching so many fish and how I did it. Its all about knowing what you want to achieve in the first place and how you go about executing that plan.

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:03 ----------

Christian, do you use the 3-B all year round? Is it always with you as an alternative to the usual baits?

Do you add any other flavours or use it neat as it were?

The 3-B does have a liquid flavour which is added to it but is, as far as I know, made from all natural ingredients, just like many other companys these days. I have big bottle of it in my fridge.

 

[chav professor]

In little over 2 weeks, had 26 Chub, including 4 'fives' off small Suffolk rivers using bread, snails, slugs, paste, luncheon meat.... baits fished in the upper columns of the river far out-fishing bottom baits in this time frame - and continue to do so....

Last night I went out and blanked... I was using luncheon meat enhanced with a blend of spices that I know works (I am not un-confident in my bait). It was a bright moon lit night and I noticed Chub crashing into things off the surface.....

I wish i had brought a few loaves of bread! Had super catches using bread off the surface at night before. The lesson I guess, is never put all your eggs......

For whatever reason, in the summer, Chub often inhabit the upper water rather than hugging the bottom as they do in winter. Possible reasons: Perhaps its a subtle temperature difference, perhaps dissolved oxygen levels are different. Weed stops photosynthesizing at night and uses oxygen for respiration.

In every respect, it is best to present a bait where the fish feel most comfortable. My paste fishing results improve during winter......

Ultimately its difficult to be subjective on the topic of bait - especially regarding isolated results.

 

[Berty]

In little over 2 weeks, had 26 Chub, including 4 'fives' off small Suffolk rivers using bread, snails, slugs, paste, luncheon meat.... baits fished in the upper columns of the river far out-fishing bottom baits in this time frame - and continue to do so....

Last night I went out and blanked... I was using luncheon meat enhanced with a blend of spices that I know works (I am not un-confident in my bait). It was a bright moon lit night and I noticed Chub crashing into things off the surface.....

I wish i had brought a few loaves of bread! Had super catches using bread off the surface at night before. The lesson I guess, is never put all your eggs......

For whatever reason, in the summer, Chub often inhabit the upper water rather than hugging the bottom as they do in winter. Possible reasons: Perhaps its a subtle temperature difference, perhaps dissolved oxygen levels are different. Weed stops photosynthesizing at night and uses oxygen for respiration.

In every respect, it is best to present a bait where the fish feel most comfortable. My paste fishing results improve during winter......

Ultimately its difficult to be subjective on the topic of bait - especially regarding isolated results.

If you had introduced a HNV type bait with taste signals that were receptive to chub they may well have switched on to them?

Fishing where the fish are taking bait is always a good method and i for one enjoy it immensly, i have, in the past left home with no bait and obtained it near the river, my all time favourite being brook lamprey.

But fish are pretty stupid and will soon switch on to a rewarding food source, and special baits can throw that switch, sometimes in a devastating manner.

 

[chav professor]

To put this into context, special pastes have their uses...... Sometimes overstated and exaggerated IMO. But fish are the masters of opportunity and will exploit a food source - natural or man made.

I argue that it is not possible to ascertain with certainty that the nutritional profile has much to do with it. Sure, fishing lightly populated venues - where the effort and blanks are rewarded with the target fish - I would be looking for an edge and perhaps view 'specials' in a different light..... But on our suffolk rivers this is not the case.

I would not know where to start with the 'careful application' process. Sure, there are areas where the fish are sparse... but within a few hundred yards you hit on pockets of fish - mostly in the 2-4lb bracket and they take a bait the size of a walnut as easily as the very few 5s, 6's and potential 7s.

I sat in a swim on June 16th at 1:15am and cast a paste bait I had been putting in.... Nothing... not a rap! I am not blaming the bait and I knew there were fish in that swim - many of them! I could hear them sipping a hatch or something off the surface... In effect exploiting a natural food source - feeding up in the water.

You can fish sections that come alive on the surface when you chuck bread in, but struggle on bottom baits.

I don't know if this is more down to my own insecurity, but I have far more confidence in 'special' baits on rivers where Barbel are fished for..... I don't know if this is down to more competition between the species or that the fish have become conditioned to accepting these baits as various versions are used predominantly in the pursuit of barbel.

But looking at the scenarios that present themselves locally, what I feed and how I feed it is very much dictated by the fish. Perhaps this is due to the minimal pressure these fish actually receive.

From my own experiences, paste baits come into their own later on in the season. I have read the articles regarding 'specials' and was really sold on trigga. It did catch, but then so did cheese paste, halibut pellet paste with anchovies or bread for that matter. Pre-bait a few pieces, come back, drop in a line. If they find something edible and there is more coming, they switch on..... to most things.

 

[bigchub]

I would not know where to start with the 'careful application' process.

To get the best out of special designer pastes or boilies then a steady introduction of the bait over a period of time is best. I'm not talking about chucking in loads every time you go, just a a dozen or so once or twice a week is enough in your selected swims will be enough. This continual feeding weans the fish onto the bait and in the end they will be so accustomed to eating it then results will improve the longer the bait goes in. This is where a quality bait made with good ingredients will shine through in the long run. The fish know they have nothing to fear from the bait (they are confident) as they've sampled a fair bit of it over and more importantly they know its doing them good. By this I mean that if your bait is made from predominately soya flour and semolina then the bait if far more unpalatable than one made from fish meal or milk derived ingredients. The fish has to gain something from any kind of bait you use, whether is be luncheon meat, bread etc. The point is that fish has to decide whether its worth expending the energy on moving to eat the bait. In the end a carefully applied hnv or mp bait will be taken out of preference to all other baits including all traditional offerings.

This is not to say that some pastes are instantly effective, because they are but if they are so effective in the first place and the fish keep coming back for more, imagine what a baiting campaign could do?

I don't know if this is down to more competition between the species or that the fish have become conditioned to accepting these baits as various versions are used predominantly in the pursuit of barbel

How many accidental chub captures have barbel anglers had over the years on their paste and boilie concoctions? I really wouldn't like to hazard a guess. You say the the fish have become

conditioned to accepting the baits

so why can't it be the same when mounting a baiting campaing for chub?

Bollies and specialised pastes have a following - but I am yet to meet a competent angler who limits themselves to a singular bait approach.

Look to the future and keep watching this space.......

 

[cg74]

To get the best out of special designer pastes or boilies then a steady introduction of the bait over a period of time is best. I'm not talking about chucking in loads every time you go, just a a dozen or so once or twice a week is enough in your selected swims will be enough. This continual feeding weans the fish onto the bait and in the end they will be so accustomed to eating it then results will improve the longer the bait goes in. This is where a quality bait made with good ingredients will shine through in the long run. The fish know they have nothing to fear from the bait (they are confident) as they've sampled a fair bit of it over and more importantly they know its doing them good. By this I mean that if your bait is made from predominately soya flour and semolina then the bait if far more unpalatable than one made from fish meal or milk derived ingredients. The fish has to gain something from any kind of bait you use, whether is be luncheon meat, bread etc. The point is that fish has to decide whether its worth expending the energy on moving to eat the bait. In the end a carefully applied hnv or mp bait will be taken out of preference to all other baits including all traditional offerings.

This is not to say that some pastes are instantly effective, because they are but if they are so effective in the first place and the fish keep coming back for more, imagine what a baiting campaign could do?

How many accidental chub captures have barbel anglers had over the years on their paste and boilie concoctions? I really wouldn't like to hazard a guess. You say the the fish have become so why can't it be the same when mounting a baiting campaing for chub?

Look to the future and keep watching this space.......

I'll start by re-asking my question I posted elsewhere, as you never actually answered it:
"What is highly digestible by chub in water temp of say 2`c?

I ask because they gulp down cheese paste, oily pellets and bread with real gusto at that temp (and colder), curiously none are especially high in protein."

What do you base these statements on:
"This is where a quality bait made with good ingredients will shine through in the long run."
"They know its doing them good."
"In the end a carefully applied hnv or mp bait will be taken out of preference to all other baits including all traditional offerings."

Can you define what the titles of HNV and MP actually mean?

"How many accidental chub captures have barbel anglers had over the years on their paste and boilie concoctions?"
Well of course you're going get bycatches, especially chub as they are opportunist feeders and share common feeding grounds!

"This is not to say that some pastes are instantly effective, because they are but if they are so effective in the first place and the fish keep coming back for more, imagine what a baiting campaign could do?"
This actually reads to me like you don't actually know? Besides chub DO keep on coming to the old school baits, endlessly in fact.

"Look to the future and keep watching this space....."
I will indeed and I expect to see great things.

 

[chav professor]

I think it is fair to say, I do use specialist baits. Having a number of swims on the ‘go’ allows you to introduce a variety of baits conditioning Chub to accept a range of baits in relative safety. I have learnt not to expect too much from a bait – all I ask is that a fish can locate it, finds it appealing and it does not cause alarm.

I think the longetivity of Cheese paste, luncheon meat, bread, pellets etc is that as they are rarely fished as single hook baits – free offering are pre-baited in moderation, confidence builds and fish accept them as food. Most fish that eat these items have had a good experience and will look for more.

However, apply this logic to specialist baits and the terms become ‘application’, nutritional profile’, ‘labels’, etc..... Just terms that make something pretty straightforward have a sound of scientific rigour. The plus side of devising a bait, or using something exclusively is that you have ownership over the pre-baiting process. The downside is that you may never actually achieve the desired effect as not enough fish are exposed during the baiting campaign – or equally important, it’s not selective enough as Chub of any size become preoccupied. A two pounder showing alarm at a bait it considers harmful will put the rest of the shoal at unease...... You don’t get the preoccupation using pastes that you can with maggots!

For some of the above reasons, if I was fishing a river with a small head of extremely large Chub, where I would expect maybe a handful of fish in a season, I would appreciate the possible advantages offered by‘specialist’ bait. We just don’t have these sorts of rivers in Suffolk. If you are getting few fish, then there is a fundamental flaw in the technique.

Equally, when I visit ‘specimen’ rivers, I always take a ‘specialist’ bait with me. The fish see volumes of pastes and boillies and are readily accepted in all their forms - The Ivel is a point in case. If I am specifically targeting Chub, I also take my usual selection of baits and equally expect to catch. On return home, I am always grateful that, though our rivers are not renowned for shaking the specialist angling world, I can pursue my fish in beautiful scenery well away from the circus activities and competition for swims that some venues are renowned for.

At the end of the day, its fishing; there are plenty of days when it is not possible to buy a bite – a change in conditions, perhaps they are already satiated, perhaps in a state where they are not willing to expend energy, preoccupied and exploiting a natural food source; sometimes, pressured and reluctant to eat something they suspect looks out of place.

There is nothing traditional about my approach to Chubbing - i am always looking for an edge that will make my season progress and achieve my goals - realistic and unrealistic. Always ready to learn, adapt and take advise.......

 

[guest61]

i am always looking for an edge

What do you mean 'an edge' - I've taken it out of the context of your excellent post but I read and hear about having 'an edge' a lot - is it in the mind e.g. Confidence or do you feel that the addition on a pinch of (insert item here) gives you or your bait an advantage over other anglers or baits in the area?

 

[chav professor]

An edge, is anything that you perceive as an advantage over what ever anyone else might be doing... For example, I use cheesepaste, but add a few extra bits in to give it a possible advantage. As it is a bit different and has an appealing flavourant/attractant it might trip up a fish that could possibly be more suspicious of 'normal' cheese paste.

There is a bait that I use which Chub find hard to ignore in flood water for example....

If I want to be more selective and catch the bigger fish, an edge might be to use a bait that looks massive, but is harder for small fish to handle.

It could just be in reality be a confidence thing.

 

[guest61]

Many thanks for your reply.

 

[noknot]

Sorry off topic, but can someone let me have a link to a Chub forum, as I fancy a go for them, seen lots in the Stour at C'bury!
Thanks'

 

[benny samways]

NoKnot, have a look for the Chub catchers, dont think they argue alot though so their forum would probably be boring and jsut full of usefull hints and tips instead of Chub Wars; Return of the Chevin.

Anyway...

I started playing around with paste fishing for chub again last winter (to give me more of a chance at fluking a barbel!) and found that I really enjoyed it, it proved to be just as effective as the bread fishing I would normally do at that time of year.

I was using natural liquid attractors at huge levels mainly to compensate for not using egg, I found these pastes to be the best I had ever used for chubbing.

The no egg factor really allows for the leakage of the good ingredients that go into the base mixes that we pay all that money for.

I was using CC Moores N Gage base mix with the accompining XP liquid, some Multimininmino, and oydessy xp liquid. The levels of the liquids equated to either 1 or 2 eggs, and seemed much more than I have ever read to be recommended. The pastes all worked excellently, with re-captures (one fish 3 times!) proving to me that the chub loved it. I will of course be trying to get more proof this winter

Has anyone else tried this method? I wouldn’t use synthetic flavours anywhere near my baits (made the mistake of buying a bacon one that smells of pure chemicals but must have the flavour profile of bacon in terms of e numbers etc??)

 

[cg74]

I think it is fair to say, I do use specialist baits. Having a number of swims on the ‘go’ allows you to introduce a variety of baits conditioning Chub to accept a range of baits in relative safety. I have learnt not to expect too much from a bait – all I ask is that a fish can locate it, finds it appealing and it does not cause alarm.

I think the longetivity of Cheese paste, luncheon meat, bread, pellets etc is that as they are rarely fished as single hook baits – free offering are pre-baited in moderation, confidence builds and fish accept them as food. Most fish that eat these items have had a good experience and will look for more.

However, apply this logic to specialist baits and the terms become ‘application’, nutritional profile’, ‘labels’, etc..... Just terms that make something pretty straightforward have a sound of scientific rigour. The plus side of devising a bait, or using something exclusively is that you have ownership over the pre-baiting process. The downside is that you may never actually achieve the desired effect as not enough fish are exposed during the baiting campaign – or equally important, it’s not selective enough as Chub of any size become preoccupied. A two pounder showing alarm at a bait it considers harmful will put the rest of the shoal at unease...... You don’t get the preoccupation using pastes that you can with maggots!

For some of the above reasons, if I was fishing a river with a small head of extremely large Chub, where I would expect maybe a handful of fish in a season, I would appreciate the possible advantages offered by‘specialist’ bait. We just don’t have these sorts of rivers in Suffolk. If you are getting few fish, then there is a fundamental flaw in the technique.

Equally, when I visit ‘specimen’ rivers, I always take a ‘specialist’ bait with me. The fish see volumes of pastes and boillies and are readily accepted in all their forms - The Ivel is a point in case. If I am specifically targeting Chub, I also take my usual selection of baits and equally expect to catch. On return home, I am always grateful that, though our rivers are not renowned for shaking the specialist angling world, I can pursue my fish in beautiful scenery well away from the circus activities and competition for swims that some venues are renowned for.

At the end of the day, its fishing; there are plenty of days when it is not possible to buy a bite – a change in conditions, perhaps they are already satiated, perhaps in a state where they are not willing to expend energy, preoccupied and exploiting a natural food source; sometimes, pressured and reluctant to eat something they suspect looks out of place.

There is nothing traditional about my approach to Chubbing - i am always looking for an edge that will make my season progress and achieve my goals - realistic and unrealistic. Always ready to learn, adapt and take advise.......

I've found that most readily accepted chub baits are taken over and over again, with quite literally amazing regularity, regardless of its nutrional value. If you find a group of chub, it's possible to catch them every day for a week or more and they still don't learn to associate the bait with danger.
Yes it's true they become harder to catch but IMO this is a reaction to angling pressure and they react in the same manner as they do with all forms of predation; reduce the length of time of their feeding window and move tighter into cover.
There is one group exceptions; baits that offer a high level of visual allure, slugs, snails and sweetcorn being some of the prime candidates, but even with these, if used cannily, they will work for a considerable length of time.

I don't believe changing baits will alter that behavioural trait, as they're reacting to something else.

Unlike you and seemingly most other chub anglers, I very rarely offer loose offerings, with the exception of bread, chopped worms and maggots, or if fishing for a group of chub in one swim where I think a multiple catch is viable, I may put out 5-6 hook baits and ad 2-3 after each capture.
My reason for feeding in this manner is simple; chub basically feed in two ways; the opportunist tact, which gives them the slightly misleading reputation of being greedy, yes they take huge baits at times, 6"+ deadbaits, huge balls of paste and large boilies. But they very quickly have their fill and move off.
Their second feeding trait is very like trout; they switch onto the most abundant food source available, hence continually trickling maggots past them is such a deadly technique.

Preoccupation on one particular feed type is only ever going to be a short lived phenomena; once the stimulus is removed (constantly running small amounts of bait through your swim), they will within 30mins to a hour revert back to being opportunists but will quite possibly be half full of your bait.

Ultimately as a bait offers a greater alluring factor it will become more likely to get taken but this goes around in a circle - what is the chub looking to feed on, some say high protein, yet bread isn't exactly high protein. Many say high oil (fats) should be avoided, yet cheese paste is about 40% fat.

In essense a well presented, well located reasonable bait will out fish a poorly presented and badly sited wonder bait.

 

[guest61]

In essense a well presented, well located reasonable bait will out fish a poorly presented and badly sited wonder bait.

An often overlooked and very good point.

 

[bigchub]

What I find one of the most beneficial aspects of using the special pastes and boilies is that there is no differential when using them in different weather conditions. For example if the river is low and clear and cold then most people would use maggots or bread, if the river is in flood then meat would be most peoples favoured choice. Designer paste is equally effective in all conditions. I for one don't bother carrying a bucket of mashed bread when chubbing anymore to attract the fish - I don't need to as my paste has the same attraction propertys and it sure beats lugging a big heavy bucket with me every time I go.

Chav mentions having 'an edge' and to me this is what these kind of baits give me.

What do you base these statements on:
"This is where a quality bait made with good ingredients will shine through in the long run."
"They know its doing them good."
"In the end a carefully applied hnv or mp bait will be taken of preference to all other baits including all traditional offerings."

See benny samways post to tell you the answers to these and its not just his results that prove these points. If you took the time and effort to dig deep enough and read some of the excellent carp forums, articles and books then you will find all the answers to these questions you could possibly need, not that I need to explain my reasoning to anyone, its all been proven anyway countless times before.

Sorry if it seems a bit of a rant but its not aimed at you or anyone specifically, and for that I apologize, but why are people so blinkered when it comes to accepting new ideas on bait and styles of fishing? Are they too afraid to step away from the norm, are they scared of failure, or just too set in their ways to actually give it a go?