Tell-tale or not tell-tale

[dr_matt]

I've already raised the issue in another thread but finally decided to create a new topic. Just to open a wider discussion about the subject.

In almost all guides and articles concerning waggler fishing one can find descriptions of shotting patterns. Most of the patterns include No 10 or No 9 tell-tale dropper shots.
The main purpose of the tell-tale shot is to help register the bite, mainly the lift bites when the fish actually lifts the tell-tale shot and so causes the float to rise in the water.

I would understand that if we were talking about pole fishing with small and finesse floats and rigs.
But we are talking here about wagglers.

An average waggler, say 2.5 g, has a relatively thick antenna (with a diameter of 3-4mm).
So, I have no idea how one can spot any bite when the No 10 or No 9, or even No 8 shot is moved/lifted up. Of course assuming you are not fishing a foot from the bank but at an average distance of, say 15-20 yards.
Or maybe I'm blind.

No 9 = 0,056g and No 10 = 0,040g. Many popular hook baits weight more. A grain of corn, peas, worms, a bread which absorbed the water. Assuming you are not fishing over depth, you would rather see the lift of the bait than the 'tell-tale' shot tells you anything.

I can understand the role of small dropper shots when fishing on the drop and I do not question that No 10 and No 9 shots allow the bait to fall slowly through the water (that's why they are called droppers).
But I still cannot comprehend the role of No 10 shot as a tell-tale shot in a waggler casted a distance of about 20 yards.

Last week I made some tests using various shots. In clam clear water conditions I could hardly register a lift bite with No 6 shot. No 4 was quite OK even on a small wave. No 3 was the smallest shot which gave me good perceptible lift bite detection in all conditions.

I see two options: I should visit my oculist or the tell-tale described in most articles is actually not tell-tale.

 

[aebitim]

Thick tipped wagglers will register a lift with a no 4 shot generally,I was fishing with a stillwater blue last week and it was quite happy showing lift bites with a no 8 dropper insert wagglers are also sensitive, as with all things fishy it is best to use what works in the conditions and a still water blue aint going to hack it at 20 mtrs on a windy lake. Hope this helps

 

[keora]

If you're fishing matches and you want to catch small fish with light, very sensitive floats, then you might need shots down to as small as size 9 or 10.

If you are fishing with bigger floats, with wider tips that can be seen at a distance, then the smallest shots you need are size 3 and 6.

I've simplified the range of shot I take. If you have swan shot SSG (1.5gm), AAA, BB, no 4 and no 6 (0.1gm), then each of these sizes is roughly half the weight of the preceding shot.

 

[Keith M]

A size 8 is as small as I go with tell-tale shot when using a waggler and even if I was scratching for bites on a cold winters day and needed to go a little smaller I would probably use a couple of very closely spaced 10's and an extremely sensitive float, but not a single one.

I have no problems seeing bites on a waggler using a size 8 tell-tale shot.

These are my most commonly used shotting patterns and shot sizes when I am fishing a Waggler.
I might even step up to a size 6 tell-tale shot on occasion if after slightly larger species like Tench and Carp.

NB: The closer the tell-tale shot is to the bottom (or hook) the more I would expect to register lifts.



Keith (BoldBear)

 

[trotter2]

The only advantage of the small shots down the line are the endless possibility's you can create by moving the shots around, from bulking up on the lift, to stringing the shots out on the drop and everything in between. Remember you can create the same weight in critical areas of the rig by bulking up

But as for your question I agree small single dust shots are never going to show a lift bite with a straight peacock waggler.

 

[jon atkinson]

All things are relative & whilst I wouldn't expect a #8 to make much impression on say a 3AAA rated waggler, its impact on one rated 2BB (what I tend to use) would be more significant.

 

[dr_matt]

All things are relative & whilst I wouldn't expect a #8 to make much impression on say a 3AAA rated waggler, its impact on one rated 2BB (what I tend to use) would be more significant.

Exactly. Nevertheless, in a lot of articles famous anglers describe 3AAA wagglers, even straight wagglers in combination with size 8 and 9 droppers (including the tell-tale shot). That's why it seems odd to me.

I doubt one can find an article describing a 3AAA waggler with No 3 or No 4 dropper / tell-tale shots. At least I haven't come across such a description.

 

[nicepix]

Exactly. Nevertheless, in a lot of articles famous anglers describe 3AAA wagglers, even straight wagglers in combination with size 8 and 9 droppers (including the tell-tale shot). That's why it seems odd to me.

I doubt one can find an article describing a 3AAA waggler with No 3 or No 4 dropper / tell-tale shots. At least I haven't come across such a description.

It doesn't matter what the overall shot carrying capacity of the float is. All that matters is how much weight is required to sink the last bit - the float tip. That depends on the material and diameter of the tip. Some of my floats have inserts to reduce the diameter of the float tip and these will require less tell-tail shot to sink the float the same amount as the ones without inserts. The ones with thicker, more buoyant tips are better for windy weather as they don't get dragged under as much.

If you have a 3 AAA waggler with a slim plastic insert it is feasible that very small shot will significantly sink the tip.

 

[peter crabtree]

Matt, what sort of water are you fishing in?
Depth etc?

 

[dr_matt]

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

It doesn't matter what the overall shot carrying capacity of the float is. All that matters is how much weight is required to sink the last bit - the float tip. That depends on the material and diameter of the tip. Some of my floats have inserts to reduce the diameter of the float tip and these will require less tell-tail shot to sink the float the same amount as the ones without inserts. The ones with thicker, more buoyant tips are better for windy weather as they don't get dragged under as much.

If you have a 3 AAA waggler with a slim plastic insert it is feasible that very small shot will significantly sink the tip.

Agreed.

Matt, what sort of water are you fishing in?
Depth etc?

Thanks.

Still waters
6ft depth
Casting distance: 20-25 yards

Clam water conditions are rather rare here on my swims.
An average wind speed is about 8 mph. Of course, it more depends on the location and the size of the lake.
The size of my lake is 64 acres.

If the wind is really strong (say > 12 mph) I have to fish using the 'lift method' with anchor shots (described and recommended by nicepix in another forum thread).
In other cases I'd like to use a waggler.
For the time being I've been using the Giant Crystal Loaded waggler. I replaced its default 3 g bomb weight with a 2.5 g bomb taken from another Giant. This way I could put more weight down the line to increase the stability of the rig.
So my current waggler rig is:
3 g + 2BB Loaded Giant with 2.5 g bomb
1.25 g in-line olivette placed 2ft from the hook (two-thirds down the line)
No 4 tell-tale shot just above the hook length which is 9'' long.

The only problem with such a set up is that it does not fly perfectly because of the divided weight (2.5 g in the float and almost 1.5 g down the line).
As Keith M mentioned here (and also in this topic) this is not the best idea and not the best shotting pattern form accurate casts.
So, maybe it would be better to turn away from loaded wagglers (I always used them because I thought they were more stable on the surface than unloaded ones) and to use unloaded inserts with the bulk shot / olivettes down the line?

 

[steph mckenzie]

How can you tell if the small dropper shots aren't registering as lift bites if they aren't registering, it could just be that the bites were the ones where the float dips under?

I would have thought that if you wanted to register lift bites the set up would have to be different than dropper shots, that for me are there to register bites that are intercepted before everything settles, or to help combat tow in the water dragging the float out of position.

 

[nicepix]

As Keith M mentioned here (and also in this topic) this is not the best idea and not the best shotting pattern form accurate casts.
So, maybe it would be better to turn away from loaded wagglers (I always used them because I thought they were more stable on the surface than unloaded ones) and to use unloaded inserts with the bulk shot / olivettes down the line?

Yes. In windy conditions I would advise putting your bulk shot well down the line and using a sliding float attachment and float stop.

 

[laguna]

Generally I just look at a float and guess its weight in old money!
Neither do I get wrapped up in articles or replicate what others do as venue/conditions will always dictate my shotting pattern.
Keep the dust shot for those who have excellent eyesight and the margin with insert waggler or pole float... I have never been able to remember shot sizes anyway apart from the old money No4, BB, AA, SGG etc. even though modern angling uses styles and gms weights these days I still prefer the old system and rarely use a conversion chart for reference.

 

[dr_matt]

How can you tell if the small dropper shots aren't registering as lift bites if they aren't registering, it could just be that the bites were the ones where the float dips under?

That day I had a shoal of skimmer and small bream in my swim. My hook length was lying on the bottom and the last 'tell-tale' shot was about an inch over the ground. Almost all bites were lift bites and then the lifted float started sailing away. There were so many similar bites that I decided to make the a/m tests by modifying the weight of the last shot and also other shots to keep the same weight on the line.
If the 'tell-tale' shot was too small I couldn't notice any lift for my eyes and the float was just sailing away.
In addition a week or two before I made another testing by putting various shots on the line and watching if I could see any differences (i.e. with and without No 8 shot) after casting out.

 

[Jim Crosskey 2]

Hi Matt

I guess one of the fascinating things with float fishing and shot patterns is the endless variation. I never use anything smaller than a no. 6 as a tell-tale shot, but I'll often have three no. 6 down towards the hook in some configuration or other and I'll simply play around with that until i get a result I'm happy with. So for example on a windy day I might have the float set 8 inches overdepth with 2 no. 6 at dead depth and a further no. 6 about four inches from the hook, whereas on a flat calm day i might fish two inches overdepth with all three no. 6 set an inch underdepth. It's funny how small variations on these things can make a huge difference, however I've also noticed that it can change in the course of a session and the set-up that at one point produced perfect sailaways suddenly needs an adjustment again.

That said, I do tend to find as a generalisation that any larger fish will tend to bury the float instantly. I tend to fish insert floats a lot closer in than you're describing, though quite often in substantially deeper water (8 - 10 feet sometimes).

I guess some of this also just depends on the angler - are you content to sit back in the same swim, safe in the knowledge that if it's supposed to happen today then it will happen? Or do you fish like a cat on a hot tin roof, constantly fretting about the hook size, method, presentation, bait choice or even swim choice? Funnily enough, I can fulfil both of the modes outlined above, it just all depends on whether I'm catching or not

 

[Tee-Cee]

dr matt.................Are you writing a book on fishing tactics??

I usually read your posts as invariably they are quite interesting and raise many good discussion points but they all seem to follow a theme that tend to produce a very good response and this particular Thread is no different...

I can see it now; ' Coarse Fishing Tactics by Matt & Friends' now available in your local tackle shop or on ebay. Price £20....

Put me down for copy will you??

 

[robtherake]

Regardless of the effect at the float tip, the tell-tale has another function, and that's to regulate the rate of fall of the bait. I can't find the illustrated article where I gleaned this bit of info, but the upshot is that a number of factors influence the rate of sinking relative to that of the loose feed.

The line produces a drag effect, balanced by the dropper shot so that the rate of fall of the bait and the feed are the same (found by trial and error). Obviously it isn't possible to see this effect at the float tip apart from noting the time taken to settle to its lowest point, but it's real, nevertheless.

 

[Keith M]

I would have thought that if you wanted to register lift bites the set up would have to be different than dropper shots, that for me are there to register bites that are intercepted before everything settles, or to help combat tow in the water dragging the float out of position.

Droppers have several uses:

1) To control the drop speed of the bait in the last couple of feet (below the bulk shot) so as to not make it appear to fall too un-naturally and spook nervous and suspicious fish.

2) To show up any bites as the bait sinks (on deeper swims the angler can count down the shot as each dropper settles and if there is a delay caused when a fish mouths the bait as its sinking the angler can see this and immediately strike)

3) To provide a cushion between the hook and bulk shot ie. to enable a fish to pickup a bait off the bottom and move off without being immediately spooked by the sudden feel of the bulk shot (like a shock rig.)

4) To give indications on the float to the different types of bite e.g. can indicate and induce lifts or tentative pulls or confident bites more clearly depending on how close or how far the tell-tale shot is from the hook on the day.

5) To provide an 'anchor shot' when laying on when a surface drag is otherwise causing the float to drift.

There may be other uses but the above are a few I can think of.

Keith (BoldBear)

 

[dr_matt]

Are you writing a book on fishing tactics??

I've already written a few books so, who knows, maybe it's time for a fishing book

raise many good discussion points

And these points are a subject of my interest

they all seem to follow a theme that tend to produce a very good response

Well, I realise that in many cases there is no one best answer / solution / golden mean or method.
Maybe it's due to my investigative nature. I'm a scientist. This is what I do
Sometimes I'm trying to challenge a formulaic and schematic assumptions and rules.

Price £20....

£20??
You underestimate my abilities!

 

[robtherake]

In addition to what I wrote above, how many times have you swapped a single maggot for a double and got an instant response? Plenty, is my guess.

The question is this: Did the fish want a bigger mouthful, or did the increase in drag (the parachute effect) slow the double maggot down so it fell at the same rate as the loose feed? Of course the opposite is also true.
I would imagine that it's most noticeable with small, light baits, rather than heavier, denser ones, where the effect would be less pronounced.

The same goes for changing to a lighter line. Is it the feel, or extra suppleness that has made a difference, or does it simply change the way the bait behaves in relation to the feed?