Losing Big Roach

[fichie23]

Started putting more effort into targeting roach on my local river this year. Although i'm landing a fair few between the 1-1.5lb bracket, I seem to be losing a lot of the better fish due to hook pulls.

Can any of you lads advise how you avoid hook pulls when targeting roach?

I should mention that I mainly fish for them on the tip at the minute. I have tried incorporating 6inch of drennan feeder gum to the hooklink, which has help somewhat, but still losing more than I believe I should be.

Apologies if you have seen this post on another forum, just trying to gather as many opinions as possible. Any help is much appreciated.

 

[sam vimes]

I've always found lighter actioned rods to be the answer for any type of fish that tend towards a jag, jag, jag type of fight. That would include perch, roach, grayling and crucians. The downside is when you hook a fish of another species (barbel, chub, tench, carp etc) much over four pounds or so, you tend not to have a great deal of control.

 

[trotter2]

What size hook and hook pattern are you using ?.

 

[Philip]

I think some more details of your tackle and setup ...rig, lead/feeder, hooklink, hook etc would help here plus the type of swim your fishing.

Without the details this is a pure stab in the dark but if your using a shortish hooklink and a relativly heavy lead that can be a very bad combo for a twisty jagging fighter like a Roach or any fish for that matter.


Give us some more info and i am sure someone will put you right. There are some very good Roach anglers here...

 

[fichie23]

I tend to fish use a long hooklink, anywhere between 2-4ft, on which I will hair rig a pellet band to a size 14 kamasan B983 hook. I fish this with a 6mm pellet in conjunction with a 15gr open end feeder.

At the start of the season I was using the drennan series 7 specialist 1.25 avon rod, but found these much too unforgiving and so switched to a Tackle Box Darent Valley 11ft (0.75lb) Specialist Rod, which I usually use for perch. These again lessened hook pulls but I'm still having problems. They're also not quiver tip rods so probably not best suited to the task.

I would be open to perhaps getting another tip rod and have in fact been trying to find something suitable on old forum posts, but recommendations seem to be for discontinued stock due to the age of the posts.

Thought I'd cracked it with the feeder gum but then lost a corker that left me gutted..

 

[dave m]

i noticed your thread asking about hooks and saw the recommendation for kamasan B983. i didnt reply as it was an old thread, but now you've put the hooks together with a more recent thread, so here goes...

i used these hooks in larger sizer for floater fishing for carp in open water, some bit bait tench and chub fishing, etc.
i found them to be a lovely pattern but they are a little fine in the wire and a bit too springy.

you could have the hook flex as a fish shakes and it opens the gape a bit allowing fish to unhook themselves. you check the hook when you reel in and it looks fine. i must admit im not familiar with them in the smaller sizes you are using but i would imaging the wire, temper and flexing would be a similar issue through the sizes.

 

[Philip]

Sounds like your not doing anything obviously wrong in my opinion anyway so it may be something more subtle.

The B983..is that the one with the slightly out turned eye ? If yes then i would switch to a straight or in turned eye pattern which i think are less prone to hook pulls but its subjective of course. Also Just my opinion which i am sure not everyone would agree with but i would ditch the hair rigged band. I would remove as much "clutter" close to the hook as possible and leave it free to do its just.

Then again it may be as simple as just leaving bites to develop a bit longer or striking a bit harder.

One thing ..i dont think the rods are the problem, the ones ypu have sound fine to me.

 

[fishing4luckies]

Although I don't have anywhere near the amount of experience as the guys who've posted responses so far I'd suggest that if, upon switching to a lighter, more forgiving rod as you stated things improved, then following that through to an even softer item may help resolve the issue. I've only ever used a Series 7 Puddlechucker Match Feeder Rod with a 1.5oz tip for the kind of fishing you describe and hook pulls are such a rarity on that setup that I can't remember the last time I had one.

Of course, this course of action doesn't help much if you don't possess such a rod but it's the best thing I can think of.

Please take my advice as it's meant - from a relative novice who has yet to catch a Roach over 2lb but has had plenty of the little beggars over 1.5lb.

In other words it may be utter bowlocks.

 

[fichie23]

Yeah they're definitely not a strong hook dave, managed to snap one quite easily when trying to pull it out of my jumper with some pliers. I like the fine gauge wire though, and was partly what I was searching for in the older post you mentioned so as to not have to resort to spade end pattern. I would be inclined to think that the feeder gum will absorb most of the jagged head shakes and put less strain in the hook, but it cant do any harm trying a different pattern to compare.

Yeah philip they have the out turned eye, which I thought may help open the gape of the hook when used with a hair rig. I know for species like barbel i've found it helps to do the opposite and have the hook point pointing up at 45deg or so, but wasn't sure this would help in terms of hooking roach? Its something to think about though, perhaps I'm only knicking them lightly or something.

I'm not sure how I'd go about using the pellet effectively without the hair rig though. When i started using them I just banded the pellet to the hook, but found I was getting missed bites and upon inspection the hook was folding back on the pellet leaving very little point showing. Perhaps gluing one to the shank though...not tried that yet.

---------- Post added at 14:35 ---------- Previous post was at 14:22 ----------

Although I don't have anywhere near the amount of experience as the guys who've posted responses so far I'd suggest that if, upon switching to a lighter, more forgiving rod as you stated things improved, then following that through to an even softer item may help resolve the issue. I've only ever used a Series 7 Puddlechucker Match Feeder Rod with a 1.5oz tip for the kind of fishing you describe and hook pulls are such a rarity on that setup that I can't remember the last time I had one.

Of course, this course of action doesn't help much if you don't possess such a rod but it's the best thing I can think of.

Please take my advice as it's meant - from a relative novice who has yet to catch a Roach over 2lb but has had plenty of the little beggars over 1.5lb.

In other words it may be utter bowlocks.

They look a nice rod. Do you use similar tactics when roach fishing and still not suffer from hook pulls?

 

[fishing4luckies]

Do you use similar tactics when roach fishing and still not suffer from hook pulls?

My normal setup when targeting Roach is to use the above mentioned rod with a FD400 reel loaded with 4lb line. I'll normally use an inline 'match cube' type weight (Preston Innovations or Guru) with one of those little green quick change beads tied on to the end of the mainline. I'll then attach a hooklength of anything from 30cm all the way up to a metre long.

Depending on conditions I'll either catapult in freebies (often Hemp and Tares) or use a small (50p sized) PVA mesh bag of the same. If fishing Hemp and Tares then it's a simple Tare (or two) on the hook. If pellets is the preferred bait then banded on a hair rig to a size 12 or 14.

If I'm using the Preston cube mentioned above it's a simple matter to switch to one of their inter change feeders if needed, or if sticking with the lead only option I can easily thread on a new mesh bag every cast or as needed just by unclipping the hooklength from the bead.

As I said I rarely suffer from pulls although I definitely set more hooks on the strike when using the banded pellets.

 

[peterjg]

A couple of suggestions:

Try the Matrix Rigger hooks, these are similar in shape to the b983 but are much sharper. When buying look at the hook not the printed size on the packet.

Use a balanced non running upstream leger - the roach feel less resistance so it takes the bait better and hangs on a bit longer. Make sure that the rig is safe, use a Drennan 'small' float stop. The small float stop can be left on the line and will pass 'just' through the rings on most quiver tips if you need to swap tips.

Good luck.

 

[David Rogers 3]

I find that dropping the rod tip low and to the side (and keeping it there whilst playing the fish) also helps to reduce hook-pulls. Most of these occur when roach shoot to the surface and roll, and dropping the tip seems to discourage them from doing this.

 

[rubio]

The above is the best advice I was given. It often feels the harder you pull the greater their resistance.You, like all of us, will have lost many small roach. They are good at it, and the best at it are the biggest maybe. Not sure there is a foolproof system. Being brave enough to keep them swimming for a bit longer before reaching for the net is the best I can offer from personal experience. Not that said experience includes any 2lbers!
Yet, of course.

 

[nottskev]

Most of my river roach are shoal fish, and 12 oz to 1lb would be an unusually good stamp, so I'm no big roach expert.

But I'm often fishing in a good flow, so there's some pressure on the hook.


Two things I've found helpful, along with a supple rod that doesn't lock up or suddenly stiffen up: keep the rod low, and keep winding the fish towards you.

When you realise it's a decent roach, there's a temptation to stop winding and start playing it "carefully". That's when they get the chance to do the darting and diving that sheds the hook.

I learnt a lesson in this when watching a friend fishing for big winter roach (1 - 1.5 lb) at Ironbridge on the Severn. He'd hook the fish, drop the rod down and steadily reel it up the swim, lift the rod and net it. I was amazed how quickly the fish were in the net. The hooklength was 1.7 Bayer. The penny dropped - I'd been hooking them, bringing them closer, then losing my nerve, allowing them to dive and thump around. I think I thought it was best to let the fish "tire itself" before trying to net it, but it had the opposite effect. My tackle was the same as his; it was all in the technique.

 

[108831]

I honestly think your rod is better suited to chub,than roach,take a look around for a light actioned feeder rod(not so much a light quiver tip,which must be right for the conditions),I find i've got float rods that although seemingly light in action,bounce smaller roach off,big roach need to be kept moving if possible,as that thud,thud fight opens the hook hold.

 

[fichie23]

Cheers for that fishing4luckies, it seems we use similar end tackle so the rod and angler are really the only variable. I had a look at the puddlechucker you mention, but the 10ft length will be prohibitive in the swims I mainly fish as there are high banks, and I'd probably struggle using longer hooklinks. After switching from 12ft to the 11ft rods I now use I have noticed it to be trickier at times. Does anyone have any suggestions on an alternative that will suit?

Thanks for the insight into how you guys go about bringing roach to the net. I currently keep the rod high when bringing them in, and so will be sure to try keeping the rod lower next time I'm out. I do try to get them to glide in as they often do by keeping a steady pace on the reel, but when you see its a good un I'm probably prone to losing my nerve and easing off a bit in all honesty. Definitely food for thought..

Those Matrix Rigger hooks look a good alternative to what I'm using, i'll be picking some of them up. I know the technique you speak of with the upstream link ledger too, and so shall give that a try when conditions permit.

---------- Post added at 10:58 ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 ----------

I honestly think your rod is better suited to chub,than roach,take a look around for a light actioned feeder rod(not so much a light quiver tip,which must be right for the conditions),I find i've got float rods that although seemingly light in action,bounce smaller roach off,big roach need to be kept moving if possible,as that thud,thud fight opens the hook hold.

Yes I definitely think a new rod is in order. Do you ever use the tip or are you predominantly a float man? Any suggestions would be welcome.

 

[Philip]

When i started using them I just banded the pellet to the hook, but found I was getting missed bites and upon inspection the hook was folding back on the pellet leaving very little point showing. Perhaps gluing one to the shank though...not tried that yet.

Thats exactly the reason why I suggested ditching the banded pellets. I get he feeling your bait is hindering your hook going in properly. Sounds like I am in the minority but I would look to sort that and the hook pattern out before I invested in a new set of rods.

Lots of other ways to attach pellets, do a search on here and there will be plenty of info. Dont discount trying something directly on the hook as well..you never know..

 

[108831]

---------- Post added at 10:58 ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 ----------

[/COLOR]

Yes I definitely think a new rod is in order. Do you ever use the tip or are you predominantly a float man? Any suggestions would be welcome.[/QUOTE]

I do allsorts,the trouble for every angler when fishing for species like roach on running water is to balance the need for weight for casting,holding the bottom etc and having a light enough action so as not to lose fish.I feel a knotless knot would be better and maybe a hook like a Guru MWGB in possibly a size 14/16 which has fine holding qualities,end tackle is all down to personal preferences and confidence.I have a feeling that balancing your weight so as to just hold and casting a yard or two upstream,fishing for dropbacks could,m-a-y-b-e,give you a better hookup down to not making the big roach quite as wary,as you've found it needs a lot of thought and tinkering. All the best Alan

 

[binka]

i found them to be a lovely pattern but they are a little fine in the wire and a bit too springy.

you could have the hook flex as a fish shakes and it opens the gape a bit allowing fish to unhook themselves. you check the hook when you reel in and it looks fine. i must admit im not familiar with them in the smaller sizes you are using but i would imaging the wire, temper and flexing would be a similar issue through the sizes.

I remain 100% convinced that this has been the problem behind many of my hook pulls and since moving on to 'X' versions fairly routinely, losses have dropped dramatically especially with perch which I find share that very similar head shaking characteristic with the roach.

I think it could be a 'combination fix' with some of the other very good suggestions already mentioned but I would certainly consider the strength of the hook and the gauge of the wire, even the 'X' versions are things of subtlety in the smaller sizes.

Whenever I fished on the drop I was always of the old school persuasion, that a finer hook was needed to slow down the rate of fall and it's only through recent observations in clear water and big, wary roach that I've noticed that the bait actually falls slower than the feed and is therefore appearing unnatural, presumably due to the line acting as a drag as it cuts through the water and I don't see much if any detriment to using stronger, even if heavier, hooks especially considering the margins we're talking about.

Many big roach get caught on relatively large pellets and boilies intended for carp and they hoover them up with seemingly little effort.

 

[dicky123]

I'd try an out and out match rod, with hooks to match. Maybe 11' to 12' in length, but with a match style tip, soft taking lines up to 4lb max.

When I was fishing for roach in my hay days, I converted a 9' 4# fly rod for ledgering. It's really worth thinking about if your specialising just on big roach as I did. Because I was only fishing up to 20/30 yards, often much less it was ideal.

Later I made one up for chub from a 6# rod. It alllows you to have a nice short handle you can move across your body, worth a thought? Very light too.

Could I add too. If your on a running rig, switch to a Paternoster rig, big roach seem to hold on longer and they will be hooked a bit deeper, that will solve your problem.