Hook seam and knotless knot

[Andy M]

When using the knotless knot to make a hook link with a hair do you ensure that you wind the line around the shank in such a way that when you pass the line back through the eye of the hook and tighten up the line is not pulled up against the side of the eye where the seam is?

I never used to bother and all the video clips I have seen none as far as I recall have mentioned this as being important.

This changed recently when I lost a decent fish with the line breaking at the hook and on close inspection my conclusion was that the line had pulled into the small gap at the seam of the hook eye and had been weakened/cut by the seam.

I now take the trouble to ensure this cannot happen again by taking care which way I wind when tying knotless knots but I was wondering if this is standard practice among experienced anglers and I am just late in catching up through bitter experience?

 

[thecrow]

No I don't bother but what I do bother with is checking the hook for any gaps or sharp edges where the eye meets the shank.

 

[Richox12]

ALWAYS wrap the first turn AWAY from any gap in the eye's formation so start whipping on the opposite side so the line cannot get into the gap

 

[john step]

I cannot remember the make but one of the well known brands did a seamless eyed hook. Someone will know thats for sure.

 

[robtherake]

I cannot remember the make but one of the well known brands did a seamless eyed hook. Someone will know thats for sure.

Korum S3, John.

Korum Seamless Hooks – Chapmans Angling

 

[nottskev]

Yes, I was told by the person who showed me the "knot" to avoid pulling the line into the gap, and it makes sense.

By the way, I came across a long piece by an angler who had been testing knots when breakages at the knotless knot had cost him fish. His conclusion was that, unlike conventional knots, the turns and coils on the knotless knot can move fractionally as pressure is increased and decreased when playing big fish, and the line weakened by these movements. His solution was to glue the knotless knot to prevent it.

I don't do enough hair-rigging to have a view; I just pass on the idea.

Found the article, in case anyone's interested

Idler's Quest: Bound to Fail - The 'Knotless Knot' Exposed

 

[108831]

I take it this is with pre-stretched lines below 8lbs,if not I would be !looking for a better hook.

 

[Andy M]

No, the line was Berkely Trilene 0.25 (5.7kg) and the hook Korda wide gape size 8. I also use Nash TT size 8 and to be honest cannot see any obvious diff at the seam but will be checking hooks more carefully in future!

 

[Andy M]

Just read the article cited by Nottskev - very interesting - so maybe it was not the seam after all!
Now, can anyone tell me the best way to tie a hair to a hook without using knotless knot?

 

[thecrow]

By tying the hair to the hook separately to the reel line, either whipped to the shank, tied to the bend or through the eye, It allows to advantage of being able to used a lighter hair than the reel line which can make a difference at times.

 

[108831]

Yes, I was told by the person who showed me the "knot" to avoid pulling the line into the gap, and it makes sense.

By the way, I came across a long piece by an angler who had been testing knots when breakages at the knotless knot had cost him fish. His conclusion was that, unlike conventional knots, the turns and coils on the knotless knot can move fractionally as pressure is increased and decreased when playing big fish, and the line weakened by these movements. His solution was to glue the knotless knot to prevent it.

I don't do enough hair-rigging to have a view; I just pass on the idea.

Found the article, in case anyone's interested

Idler's Quest: Bound to Fail - The 'Knotless Knot' Exposed

If you wind the line back around the hook before passing the line back through the hook the coils don't move.

 

[thecrow]

If you wind the line back around the hook before passing the line back through the hook the coils don't move.

That's how i learned to tie it some 30 years ago and still use but the modern way seems to be only to whip down one way and go straight back through the eye

 

[Philip]

I have always started the first turn opposite the eye closure and then straight back through the eye of the hook coming out the front (point) side of the hook.

Never ever had an issue with it. I have read the accounts from time to time of people saying that there is a stress point where the line leave the eye of the hook and flexing can weaken it to the point it breaks but I have never seen it myself and think if a break did occur there its probably for other reasons.

My opinion away.

 

[bracket]

Just read the article cited by Nottskev - very interesting - so maybe it was not the seam after all!
Now, can anyone tell me the best way to tie a hair to a hook without using knotless knot?

Easy. Tie it as you would a spade end hook with the tag containing the hair rig which can be a lasso, band or what ever kind of stop you normally use. Pete

 

[peterjg]

I have tested this knot many times. Yes, if the line if turned the wrong way can be cut by the end of the hook's eye and yes it can loosen. However; it is undoubtedly a very efficient knot. The way I tie it is to tie it with 7 turns and then retie it again with another 7 turns. It sounds complicated but it is dead easy.

 

[Andy M]

I have tested this knot many times. Yes, if the line if turned the wrong way can be cut by the end of the hook's eye and yes it can loosen. However; it is undoubtedly a very efficient knot. The way I tie it is to tie it with 7 turns and then retie it again with another 7 turns. It sounds complicated but it is dead easy.

Does this mean you wind 7 down the shank and then 7 turns back up the shank towards the eye? Does it not make the winding very thick?

 

[peterjg]

Andy, I do 7 times down the shank and then another 7 times further down the shank from the first lot. It works even for small eyed hooks like a size 20 and 0.08 mm line. If you use a normal hair with a knotted loop for the bait stop the second lot of 7 turns is unnecessary because the hair knot will stop the hook knot unravelling. I have tested this knot in my laboratory (garage) many times and can confirm its efficiency. I like the angle the line comes from the hook eye.

 

[tench2k3]

use a snell knot

 

[Andy M]

use a snell knot

THE answer to my prayers! Many thanks and to any out there to whom the snell knot is a mystery as it was to me, herewith a useful link.

YouTube

 

[geoffmaynard]

This knot is pretty damn good and as we can see, there are several ways to tie it. All however are susceptible to damage from forceps when unhooking fish after fish... I suspect this is where most people have problems. Never use forceps on a knotless knot and assume the knot will be undamaged.