Groundbait additives to target smaller carp on wild lakes

Arries87

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In South Africa we have practically no commercial lakes and a very limited selection of groundbait types, many brands, but basically the same composition. 99% of our groundbait is a comprised of finely crushed corn and a binding agent (mostly pre cooked maize). This is an very effective groundbait in SA as it attracts all of the species, but in a feeder comp carp (even small ones) are better to target as they are much heavier per fish. To put into perspective, the Mudfish and Yellowfish we often catch seldom weigh more than 200g, whilst the average size for carp caught will be in the vicinity of 500g. So effectively, one carp is normally worth three of the other species in weight. I don't want to stop catching the other species, I am just trying to attract and keep the carp on my feeding area.

What additives (and what quantities) would you guys use on a wild lake to attract carp?

I have used fishmeal to limited success, hemp attracts some carp but seems to discourage the other species? I am thinking of trying finely ground peanuts, ground betane, etc.
 

stillwater blue

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Ground biscuits - both chocolate or vanilla are good. They'll help with binding and add a bit of food content to the mix.

Ground peanuts - are very attractive to most species over here, I prefer to toast the peanuts in a dry frying pan first as it gives them a stronger aroma, I do the same with hemp.

Dog food - Frolic is a good addition as it adds a bit of food content and a meaty smell, I'm not sure if it's available in South Africa but something similar might work.

Spices - Ground Fengreek would be a good choice but it's worth playing around with.

Liquid additives are worth messing with too. If you've got any Asian food shops locally then go check them out and look for anything that smells fishy and salty as it will generally be good, I'm a fan of Belachan which is a fermented shrimp paste


Amounts all depend upon each other, for example peanuts don't help binding but help dispersion underwater where as biscuit meal helps binding. You'll also need to consider what you want the groundbait to do, if you're fishing at range or deep water then you'll need a groundbait that binds well where as you want the opposite for fishing shallow at close range. It's worth keeping track of recipes and playing around, it isn't too difficult.
 
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stu_the_blank

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Hi

Krill in liquid form mixed into a fishmeal based binder with broken boilies, maize, hemp and any other particle you can lay your hands on.

Create a competitive feeding situation and you are more than half way there.

Stu
 

Philip

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I doubt your going to find an additive that will attract exclusivly Carp...if you do please let me know :)

The only bait I can think of that may help you single out more Carp would be Tiger nuts but even those will be taken by other fish.

Another option is rather than look at bait composition perhaps you should look at the physical attributes of the bait. Using large hard baits may help you to single out more Carp.

At the end of the day I would say its unlikly your going to find something foolproof so you may need to just bite the bullet and attract as many fish of all species into your swim and just wade through them catching Carp as well.
 

Arries87

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And another one who swore by TCP antiseptic as I remember! :eek:mg:
(Seriously)

You joke, but here in SA dips are massive with our fishing setups, a competitive "conventional" angler in SA will have no less than 40 different dips in their bait box. With our groundbait being so "plain" we rely heavily on dips/scents that we add to our method bomb prior to each cast.

The origional TCP is a hugely successful additive here, especially when used with some almond and caramel.

The "standard" way of fishing here in SA is completely different to what Europe (or the rest of the world for that matter) would consider standard! I guess we are just weird!? :D:D:D
 

Arries87

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Some years ago there was a member on here who fished for carp in S.A.

He swore by a product called Goo.

He reckoned he caught 400 carp in one day using it!

Korda Kiana Carp Goo - Korda24.com

Jup, Kiana dip is made by about 10 different manufacturers here, the most expensive one being about R95 (about 5 UK Pounds). Goo is great but hugely overpriced here
 

laguna

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You joke, but here in SA dips are massive with our fishing setups, a competitive "conventional" angler in SA will have no less than 40 different dips in their bait box. With our groundbait being so "plain" we rely heavily on dips/scents that we add to our method bomb prior to each cast.

The origional TCP is a hugely successful additive here, especially when used with some almond and caramel.

The "standard" way of fishing here in SA is completely different to what Europe (or the rest of the world for that matter) would consider standard! I guess we are just weird!? :D:D:D
I don't joke, it just seems so at odds. I remember him telling us about TCP and without him knowing why, just followed the crowd.
My thoughts were because your lakes out there are massive in comparison to what we are used to... There is no doubt whatsoever that additives work in attracting fish and TCP stinks like hell which you and your mates in SA need in order to attract them from greater distances.... albeit artificially!

My company Laguna on the other hand, creates and develops additives using 100 percent natural ingredients. Preferring instead to include for example a full range of L-type essential amino acids, betaine, Potassium citrate, Glycerites and other natural stimulator's including live bacterial cultures which all fish find attractive. All are alcohol-free. Our aim is fish recaptures practising catch and release. Something you wouldn't achieve with TCP.
 
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Graham Elliott 1

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Add some aniseed to your standard Mix as first go.

And also try adding strawberry flavouring as another try.
 

lakhyaman

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I tend to agree that creating a competitive feeding scenario would be your best bet. If the carp are competitively feeding in earnest and in numbers and they are larger than the other fish they will muscle the others out and you will achieve your objective of catching more carp than other fish.

Since it appears that scent plays a large role in your ground baiting style in SA you could try the traditional groundbait recipe used here in Bangladesh. It works!

Find an Indian grocer or spice seller and buy the following:

Fenugreek: whole or powdered 1lb
Sweet flag: whole or powdered 1/2lb
Nutmeg: whole or powdered 1/2lb
Lesser Galangale: 2lb
Spice Pages: Lesser Galangale (Kaempferia galanga, kencur, Sand ginger)
This last is usually sold by Indian spice merchants but you may find it easier to source from a Chinese supermarket. You can get it online but expensive. The link above will help you find the English and other names for the various spices and any others you may fancy in the shop.

You can vary the quantity in the ratio above. The critical ingredients are Lesser Galangale and fenugreek. The other spices are optional but the more the merrier.

If you get the above in a powdered form then well and good. Mix it all up and keep in a wide mouthed stoppered jar or two. If however you have got them whole then partially roast these on the end of a shovel or on a frying pan outside somewhere until the aroma can be smelt at a distance of eight or ten paces! Then while still warm grind them up in a mortar or grinder to a fine powder, mix and keep in a stoppered bottle as above.

You are warned to do the above outside or in a garden shed otherwise the aroma will drive you from your house or your wife will! The stoppered bottle should be WELL stoppered for the same reason and the mixture is best kept in the shed. It is not an unpleasant smell, just overpowering.

Get about 10kg or so of mustard (rapeseed) oil cake. The Oil cake should still have a mustardy smell to it. However modern mills are exceptionally efficient and will squeeze the last drops of oil out leaving an earthy smelling cake. In that case, add a small quantity of mustard oil to the cake (supermarket should have it). Make a fifty fifty mixture of water and sugar and reduce it by boiling till it is really syrupy. Break the oil cake into small (half a palm size) pieces and put it into a plastic drum/ bucket with a lid. Add the syrup to the oil cake and let it soak in. Do this a small quantity at a time until the oil cake is the consistency of damp clay or a softish paste bait. Be aware that the oil cake will significantly increase in volume as it soaks up the syrup, so leave enough room in the container and keep the lid on while soaking. Otherwise you will have maggots in the oil cake paste (not that that stops attracting the fish!). If the mixture is too runny add dry oil cake until you get the right consistency. You can also get powdered oil cake and this works just as well and soaks up the syrup quicker and is easier to get to the right consistency.

When you go out fishing take the oil cake container and the powdered spices with you. Mix at the waterside until the required aroma level is reached. Form into balls the size of a cricket ball and throw them into the water trying to keep the balls as concentrated as possible. Fish around that spot, but the closer the better. You can put the oil cake paste on the feeder.

The fish will eat the stuff and the paste makes a good aromatic bait in itself. To stop this you can mix an equal quantity of loamy earth with the cake. Which will bulk it out as well. Alternatively if you cannot be doing with the oil cake then get some rice or wheat bran. Wet it slightly, mix in the spice powder, add the quantity of loam you wish to, ball up and chuck the lot in. The bran will not feed the fish enough but will keep them occupied, there will be a lot of scent to attract the fish and your bait will stand out.

You mentioned competitive fishing so I doubt if you will be allowed to prebait the night before. However if you soak mustard oil cake with water overnight it stinks like the worst French cheese in the morning. Best done well downwind of any human habitation. Chuck this in into your favoured spot the night before. Next morning lay a bed of the sweet spice scented oil cake over this and go to fishing.

You can add anything to the oil cake - ground peanuts, any of a myriad of other sweet scented spices or whatever takes your fancy.

Sounds like a lot of hassle but you can make up a substantial quantity and it lasts for months with the sugar syrup acting as a preservative.

Best of luck

All the best

Lakhyaman.
 

laguna

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Find an Indian grocer or spice seller and buy the following:

Fenugreek: whole or powdered 1lb
Sweet flag: whole or powdered 1/2lb
Nutmeg: whole or powdered 1/2lb
Lesser Galangale: 2lb
Spice Pages: Lesser Galangale (Kaempferia galanga, kencur, Sand ginger)

I can certainly vouch for fenugreek, although I wouldn't necessarily say it is pungent but it does attract fish natually and efficiently, often its used in the manufacture of artificial Maple syrup too.
I remember reading that nutmeg (Australia) is poisonous in large dosages. As little as one and one half whole nutmeg is enough to potentially kill a small child.
Sweet flag and Lesser Galangale I haven't heard of. Following your link it describes Lesser Galangale thus: The rhizome is al*so re*ported to dis*play cyto*toxic proper*ties.

Appreciate the information and link provided in your post above, thank you. Do you happen to know anything more about these cytotoxic properties on fish? Given that your recipe calls for 2lb of Lesser Galangale, I would be interested to know specifically what is the median lethal dose required or LC50 might be in 4 hourly exposure times.
Citations much appreciated if possible.
 

lakhyaman

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Laguna

Haven't a clue about the cytotoxic properties. I suspect you would be better placed to find out. However this recipe is readily available all made up and ready for groundbait here. When there are commercial tickets given on a fishery here you will have over a hundred fishermen heaving in upto 5 kg each of the above mixture into the water (usually about 3 acres in size). We have never seen any fish mortality because of it.

Both nutmeg and mace are actually added to the groundbait for scent. Note that although the mixture I have quoted would give you four pounds or so of powder you would be hard put to use the lot in ten kg of oil cake it is very strongly scented and two or three tablespoonfuls go a long way. Both nutmeg and Lesser Galangale are used to spice food in India and South East Asia.

Mace, Indian Spice

Incidentally Galangale and fenugreek are usually mixed at a 2:1 ratio with fenugreek being the lesser. It is thought that roasted fenugreek makes the mixture too bitter if added in larger quantities and the fish prefer the sweeter paste. Not having put more fenugreek in I have no clue if this is correct.

A whole host of other sweet scented spices are also added according to the many "oh so secret" recipes of fishermen but Galangale and fenugreek are the base and you can add or subtract anything else as you wish.

I suspect that any of the spices taken in large quantities could or would be hallucinogenic or even fatal but so are many other things such as alchohol.

For cytotoxic and other info you could buy this book, I suppose.
American Herbal Products Association’s Botanical Safety Handbook, Second Edition - Google Books

The following links turned up on a Google search. I have no idea as to how scientifically rigorous they are.

Lesser Galangal Root Alpinia officinarum.Lesser Galangal Root Extract.
The second link gives Ld50 figures (scroll down a bit)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956707/[/URL

[URL="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286386241_Potent_selective_cytotoxic_activity_of_kaempferia_galanga_L_Rhizome_against_cancer_cell_cultures"]https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286386241_Potent_selective_cytotoxic_activity_of_kaempferia_galanga_L_Rhizome_against_cancer_cell_cultures


All I can tell you is that thousands of tons of this stuff is chucked into hundreds of thousands of angling ponds ( The proverb says: Fish and rice maketh a Bengali) every year in Bangladesh, West Bengal, Assam, Tripura and increasingly points west and south in the Indian subcontinent with no fish mortality. However I doubt if anyone has done any scientific studies on this.

I would be truly grateful for any insights.

All the best

Lakhyaman
 

cattyfatty

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Best bait additives for carp you can put in grounddait is haiths robin red.
Got a good track record carp catcher.
Buy it from the company direct haith's baits website..
Get it fresh from them ,not from anywhere else that been on a shop shelf for ages
 

laguna

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Best bait additives for carp you can put in grounddait is haiths robin red.
Got a good track record carp catcher.
Buy it from the company direct haith's baits website..
Get it fresh from them ,not from anywhere else that been on a shop shelf for ages
Good proven additive RR but there is no such thing as the best.
 

stu_the_blank

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RR is good but it rather depends what you mix it with. I do use it regularly and I have found that it up's the % of Commons I catch for a reason that I've never understood!

It's a very good attractant and taste enhancer but to get carp on the munch you need to give them something to eat.

Stu
 

cattyfatty

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I put a handful in kg mix 50/50 mix breadcrumb and fishmeal ground bait.
Summer just gone I was using there new robin green from haiths as well .
Has a different smell with the peppery undertones like the robin red
Its something I have used in my boilies as well....
 

iannate

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Confidence in what you are using is a good thing, but the price of it now has started a lot of people to search for something a bit more wallet friendly or just leave it out all together; and as far as they can see are still getting the same results; even buying in lots of 20Kg it can add 84p per Kg when adding it at the recommended 10%.

But as said, confidence is good, and if you are prepared to pay the price I don't see it as a problem.

When typing the full name a moment ago I accidentally typed robing red - not so sure I was wrong.
 
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