Rods and line damage....

[tigger]

Since there's a bit of chit chat about rods at the moment I thought i'd bring this problem up.
Anyone who knows me on here knows I like catching barbel on my float rods and in some of my chosen swims I need to play them quite hard to avoid them from reaching snaggs.
I have noticed that when playing powerfull fish hard like this some of my rods do seem to damge my line despite these rods having top quality guides.
The reason i'm bringing it up just now is because my line was damaged yesterday whilst playing a fish quite hard, the rod was a 13ft drennan acolyte.
I have the same problem with my hardy marksman specialist rods although it doesn't seem to happen so much with lines above my go to 6lb.
This problem doesn't happen with my other rods such as my normarks, marksman superos, old drennan rods etc.
I did see a video on youtube (the video is still on there i've just looked, if you want to see it click in hardy supero rods) where Dave Coster is in Ireland using hardy rods and he actually mentions that the guides on the specialists chewed up line and the the superos had been fitted with kinder fuji black alconites to combat this problem. I know I don't seem to get the line damage when using my superos.
I'm quite sure it's not down to the line i'm using which is usually sensor. Yesterday I was using 5lb bayer perlon straight through and it suffered far worse than the sensor with the acolyte.
Has anyone else had this problem with any rods in particular?

 

[sam vimes]

I've never noticed the problem, but I can accept it might happen. Rarely catching anything of note in periods of high temperatures will help! It's likely to be a friction and heat issue, which are inly going to be exacerbated in this period of high temperatures. My suspicion is that some combinations of line and ring liner type will be less compatible than others. That's assuming that there's no form of damage to the rings or line that is making things worse.

 

[tigger]

I've never noticed the problem, but I can accept it might happen. Rarely catching anything of note in periods of high temperatures will help! It's likely to be a friction and heat issue, which are inly going to be exacerbated in this period of high temperatures. My suspicion is that some combinations of line and ring liner type will be less compatible than others. That's assuming that there's no form of damage to the rings or line that is making things worse.

No damage Chris, as you know I usually wipe the blanks and guides down with a wet one at the end of a session to prevent ewt like that occurring. It happens with my hardy specialists and my acolytes. It is far worse wheni'm forced to wind in with the line under tension. I know that's not reccommended but occassionally i've had no choice.

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

It's likely to be a friction and heat issue, which are inly going to be exacerbated in this period of high temperatures.

I'll go along with that. Particularly in cases where the rod is just sitting there as in carp fishing on an alarm.
Touch the black blank and feel how hot it gets after sitting in the sun and then try the rings, which will also conduct heat from the rod. Some ring materials may stay cooler and this is what you might be experiencing on some of your other rods.
It's worth making notes as you fish as to which parts of the line get affected although if you're trotting for barbel it will be more difficult to make proper assessments. It's another point to factor into your equation.
This is one reason I don't like daytime carp fishing on alarms in this weather.

 

[tigger]

I'll go along with that. Particularly in cases where the rod is just sitting there as in carp fishing on an alarm.
Touch the black blank and feel how hot it gets after sitting in the sun and then try the rings, which will also conduct heat from the rod. Some ring materials may stay cooler and this is what you might be experiencing on some of your other rods.
It's worth making notes as you fish as to which parts of the line get affected although if you're trotting for barbel it will be more difficult to make proper assessments. It's another point to factor into your equation.
This is one reason I don't like daytime carp fishing on alarms in this weather.

This happens in cold weather also though Jeff. No doubt it is friction, it happens when the fish are taking line under pressure mainly. If I have to wind in with any tension on the line it seems to emphisize it and you can hear the line creacking through the guides, similar to nails being scraoed down a blackboard sort of noise.

 

[Philip]

Couple of things. I would say if its happening then the chances are its going to be 1 ring that is causing the issue rather than all of them. For example, I would take a close look at the butt and tip rings. Is there a noticeably bigger step between them and the next ring in /reel compared to the other rods…if there is then that may be your issue that the line is coming over a steeper angler and in situations of extreme pressure that what’s messing you up or exhuberating any heating /friction issue

Second point, I had something similar happen to me recently. I hooked a fish on a lake on some relatively light tackle and a pin, it went off on some mega runs.. I must have played it for 45mins or more…just a series of endless long runs. The fish never got near any snags so the line never grated against anything but when I had the fish in the margins the line suddenly snapped like cotton. Very weird. On closer inspection there was a build up of very fine algae, scum & grit on the line which basically acted like sandpaper and –Ping- it was gone. Anyway its another possibility but wouldnt explain why you only see it on some rods and not the others

 

[tigger]

Couple of things. I would say if its happening then the chances are its going to be 1 ring that is causing the issue rather than all of them. For example, I would take a close look at the butt and tip rings. Is there a noticeably bigger step between them and the next ring in /reel compared to the other rods…if there is then that may be your issue that the line is coming over a steeper angler and in situations of extreme pressure that what’s messing you up or exhuberating any heating /friction issue

Second point, I had something similar happen to me recently. I hooked a fish on a lake on some relatively light tackle and a pin, it went off on some mega runs.. I must have played it for 45mins or more…just a series of endless long runs. The fish never got near any snags so the line never grated against anything but when I had the fish in the margins the line suddenly snapped like cotton. Very weird. On closer inspection there was a build up of very fine algae, scum & grit on the line which basically acted like sandpaper and –Ping- it was gone. Anyway its another possibility but wouldnt explain why you only see it on some rods and not the others

Deffo non of those points Philip.

 

[wetthrough]

Tigger, in what way is it damaged?

 

[stillwater blue]

I've got both of the acolytes in 14ft.

With the plus after each time I fish it I'll get a couple of pig tailed sections of line around 6" long behind the float for maybe a rod length but not with the ultra, doesn't seem to matter if I use a pin or a fixed spool reel. At first I thought it might be damage to a rod ring but running cotton around the rings they appear to be fine.

 

[tigger]

Tigger, in what way is it damaged?

If you run your finger and thumb down the line it feels rough. I think it must be like Dave Coster said in the video about the inserts being harsh on lines, obviously when they're under a lot of load and sliding against the tip eye. I've had this happen lots of times to the extent that i've stopped fishing and cut of a couple of lengths of line then set up again so as to prevent a break when playing another hard fighting fish. I say to prevent a break but it's never broke yet even when badly damaged.

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

This happens in cold weather also though Jeff. No doubt it is friction, it happens when the fish are taking line under pressure mainly. If I have to wind in with any tension on the line it seems to emphisize it and you can hear the line creacking through the guides, similar to nails being scraoed down a blackboard sort of noise.

Oh boy! You said you were using Sensor line. It tends to be thicker that a lot of other lines and I find it to be more brittle, if that's the right way of putting it, but too many anglers find it just right so I doubt it is the line. It's very polished too so I can only imagine it would run through the rings without any trouble.
I would have your rings checked but with a jeweller's eye piece, if you can get hold of one. Alternatively, take a length of line, get someone to hold the rod and run the line under tension on every individual ring, making sure that you sway it side to side in the ring as well. If one gives you the 'creaking' noise and/or damages your line, that's the baby!
Another thing you could try is cleaning them with Son Of A Gun or Armor-All Protectant for cleaning car dash boards. Keep doing it and it builds up a silicon coating. Can only try and it's good stuff for cleaning rods anyway!

Like sorting out problems on a car, start with the most obvious and cheapest components (plugs, typically) and work up.

 

[Mark Wintle]

One thing that happened over the years is that the design of tip rings has changed. Some the early SiC tip rings had a generous insert ie it covered the frame of the eye in a way that no matter what angle the line was it passed over the insert. But some more modern designs have a much smaller insert so that in some circumstances the line is rubbing on the frame of the eye. For eyes other than the tip ring this will not matter but at the tip the line angle changes much more so it could be critical. I must admit that I wish all the tip rings on my rods were the earlier design.

 

[sam vimes]

The obvious solution is to stop catching decent sized fish.:wh

 

[tigger]

Oh boy! You said you were using Sensor line. It tends to be thicker that a lot of other lines and I find it to be more brittle, if that's the right way of putting it, but too many anglers find it just right so I doubt it is the line. It's very polished too so I can only imagine it would run through the rings without any trouble.
I would have your rings checked but with a jeweller's eye piece, if you can get hold of one. Alternatively, take a length of line, get someone to hold the rod and run the line under tension on every individual ring, making sure that you sway it side to side in the ring as well. If one gives you the 'creaking' noise and/or damages your line, that's the baby!
Another thing you could try is cleaning them with Son Of A Gun or Armor-All Protectant for cleaning car dash boards. Keep doing it and it builds up a silicon coating. Can only try and it's good stuff for cleaning rods anyway!

Like sorting out problems on a car, start with the most obvious and cheapest components (plugs, typically) and work up.

The line I used the other day was bayer perlon and it suffered more than sensor.

There's no cracks in the inserts, it happens with a number of my float rods, all the acolytes and some hardy marksman specialist rods. It happens with my drennan super tench rod also.

 

[tigger]

One thing that happened over the years is that the design of tip rings has changed. Some the early SiC tip rings had a generous insert ie it covered the frame of the eye in a way that no matter what angle the line was it passed over the insert. But some more modern designs have a much smaller insert so that in some circumstances the line is rubbing on the frame of the eye. For eyes other than the tip ring this will not matter but at the tip the line angle changes much more so it could be critical. I must admit that I wish all the tip rings on my rods were the earlier design.

I know exactly what you mean Mark but the inserts on my rod guides look to cover the frames well enough.
I think it's down to the type of materials the inserts are made of.

 

[tigger]

The obvious solution is to stop catching decent sized fish.:wh

There is that course of action but I think i'll put up with my line getting damaged or maybe use different rods, infact i've just made a 11ft supero avon rod up, left it on the floor without the reel screwed on until I decide when to shoot off. I was gonna go today but only just got free and it's a bit on the hot side, maybe see how it is tomorrow.

 

[Richox12]

Check the ceramic linings for EPOXY. Sometimes the clear epoxy used to seal the whippings gets onto the ceramic and the line gradually cuts into that. If you find any evidence of it then it's simply removed with the tip of a Stanley knife blade or similar.Just 'Prick' it and it will normally come off as one piece (no need for scrapping etc).

 

[Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC)]

Im a mechanical engineer and work with mechanical seals that use seal rings made from Silicon Carbide. Silicon carbide has a very fine grane structure allow a very fine, low friction surface finish (as required by a line guide). It is also a very hard material, making it very hard wearing (as required by a line guide).

SiC has a very high coefficient of thermal conductivity - meaning that it can dissipate/transfer heat very quickly. In the case of line passing over an SiC guide it will dissipate the heat due to friction away from the line an into the air.

However, if the SiC guide is heated by the hot sun that we have seen recently then it could be transferring the heat to the line, which may be a significant factor leading to line damage.

Also worth noting is that although SiC is very strong (in compression) and very hard - it is very brittle and is easily damaged by impact. Id it becomes chipped or cracked then it would certainly damage the line.

 

[Mark Wintle]

I know exactly what you mean Mark but the inserts on my rod guides look to cover the frames well enough.
I think it's down to the type of materials the inserts are made of.

Why not try this? Take the top joint and 8ft of line and tie the line to the bottom eye then thread it up through the rest of the eyes and get someone to hold the bottom of the joint firmly then maneuver the line at different angles, putting a bend in the joint as appropriate and see if at any point the line is rubbing on the frame not the insert. That gets away from theory to a practical test.

 

[mikench]

Good to see you posting again Matt! I hope you are well!