Tying spade end hooks and hooklengths,or the inability to.

[sam vimes]

I am not trying to change anyone’s mind and sacred cows and sacred anglers are not my thing, the old adage of if something doesn’t look right it probably isn’t and I just couldn’t get used to what looks a bit “not right” to me with a spade end hook.

I would hope by now that it's quite apparent that I'm not interested in doing things to follow convention, or some name angler(s). I'm all for the slaying of sacred cows. I use long rods in situations that people tell me I shouldn't. I use types of floats of a size that people say are all wrong for the application. I've barely used a shot for my float fishing in the last three years, I'd rather use olivettes. I'm also prone to using hooklinks way shorter than I'm supposed to.

However, the truth is that I feel the exact opposite to you. To me, small eyed hooks look all wrong and sit all wrong. Extensive use of spades means that I share none of the doubts about them. If I had any doubts, rest assured, I'd be using eyed for everything. I could certainly make do with eyed if forced to, but I'd have to be forced.

 

[nottskev]

Regarding spade end hooks, it's hard to know what to say if you explain that you and millions of others have been using them life-long without any line problem, and someone who doesn't use them continues to insist that in theory they must be a danger to your line. The proof of the pudding, if we're getting proverbial, is in the eating.

An old joke:

Your theory's rubbish. I've got data.

Data schmata. I like my theory.

 

[mikench]

Youth is wasted on the young

 

[silvers]

Regarding spade end hooks, it's hard to know what to say if you explain that you and millions of others have been using them life-long without any line problem, and someone who doesn't use them continues to insist that in theory they must be a danger to your line. The proof of the pudding, if we're getting proverbial, is in the eating.

An old joke:

Your theory's rubbish. I've got data.

Data schmata. I like my theory.

As a (former) scientist i find the misuse and abuse of the term "theory" mistefying:
from merriam-webster dictionaries ...

In scientific reasoning, a hypothesis is an assumption made before any research has been completed for the sake of testing. A theory on the other hand is a principle set to explain phenomena already supported by data. Theories will pull together experimental results to provide full explanations such as "The Big Bang Theory." Outside of scientific reasoning, "theory" and "hypothesis" are often used interchangeably, and "theory' can unfortunately be interpreted to mean "less sound" or "lightly speculated."

 

[nottskev]

As a (former) scientist i find the misuse and abuse of the term "theory" mistefying:
from merriam-webster dictionaries ...

In scientific reasoning, a hypothesis is an assumption made before any research has been completed for the sake of testing. A theory on the other hand is a principle set to explain phenomena already supported by data. Theories will pull together experimental results to provide full explanations such as "The Big Bang Theory." Outside of scientific reasoning, "theory" and "hypothesis" are often used interchangeably, and "theory' can unfortunately be interpreted to mean "less sound" or "lightly speculated."

Indeed, and I know engineers who freak out if you say, for example, breaking strain when it should be breaking stress.
Words are used in different discourses and function differently in them. Personally, I always notice when people use a term like "semantics" (the study of how meanings work) to represent petty quibbling etc, as in "you're just talking semantics". My point, to leave out any dubious use of the word "theory", was simply that when my lifelong experience of x conflicts with the idea about x of someone who never used it, I back the experience, which has provided me with the data. Did the old joke misuse "theory"? I think it says something about how people can hold to an idea by ignoring the facts that question it.

Taking "theory" to mean mere speculation etc would be a nice example of what linguists term Pejoration- the way some word pick up more negative meanings over time. Cowboys were movie heroes in my youth; now "cowboys" fix your roof badly and appear on Rogue Traders. The other three basic semantic shifts are: Broadening - holidays used to be holy; now they're any day off. Narrowing - a girl was originally a child of either sex. Melioration - nice used to mean sneaky and cunning.

It all makes a change from how to tie your hook on

 

[mikench]

At a job interview: "What's your greatest weakness?"

Interviewer: What's your greatest weakness?

Me: Answering the semantics of a question but ignoring the pragmatics.

Interviewer: Could you give me an example?

Me: Yes, yes I could.

 

[nottskev]

At a job interview: "What's your greatest weakness?"

Interviewer: What's your greatest weakness?

Me: Answering the semantics of a question but ignoring the pragmatics.

Interviewer: Could you give me an example?

Me: Yes, yes I could.

Very nice! A sophisticated version of Have you got the time?/Yes or Where are you going?/Out

 

[103841]

When I use to ask West End Girls...”Have you got the time”

“Yeah, have you got the money”

 

[silvers]

Indeed nottskev .., and I even forgot to put a smiley on

 

[peterjg]

All of a sudden this thread has got boring (that's my hypothesis) - what about the bloody hooks!

 

[nottskev]

Indeed nottskev .., and I even forgot to put a smiley on

No problem - linguists detect the implied smiley.

 

[nottskev]

All of a sudden this thread has got boring (that's my hypothesis) - what about the bloody hooks!

Does it matter that spade ends are attached via a whipping knot, which may ( I'm just preparing to be attacked by angry engineers who'll tell me I'm abusing stress, strain, force etc) spread the stress/strain; eyed hooks are held by a single turn of line through the eye which bears all the force applied. I don't know if one attachment is intrinsically stronger than the other. What do you think?

 

[peterjg]

Nottskev, a good point (no pun intended).

I prefer eyed hooks, for each hook I use two knotless knots. This means that the line has to pass through the eye 3 times which does restrict the line diameter with some hooks. However; the result is an extremely strong whipped knot which helps the hook to turn due to the line coming from the inside of the eye and it also helps the point to penetrate with less force. I use hooks down to a size 20.

 

[trotter2]

I remember giving this some thought like others, I think I concluded its better with the line outside the bend for the reasons already given my forum members.But I must admit I tie hooks by automatic pilot and don't really think about it, in fact to be brutally honest I had to check lol.
One reason why I tie on spades is I find them a hell of a lot easier. Getting the line through a size 20 eyed hook could take me some time, especially if I leave my glasses at home.

 

[nottskev]

Nottskev, a good point (no pun intended).

I prefer eyed hooks, for each hook I use two knotless knots. This means that the line has to pass through the eye 3 times which does restrict the line diameter with some hooks. However; the result is an extremely strong whipped knot which helps the hook to turn due to the line coming from the inside of the eye and it also helps the point to penetrate with less force. I use hooks down to a size 20.

I've never seen that before. Do you have to seek out hooks with large eyes? I've sometimes found it hard to get the line through twice.

 

[peterjg]

Nottskev, I use different hooks types for different baits. Now 99% of my fishing is for roach. Kamasan b525 in sizes 12 and 14 and b980 in 8 and 10 for flake: b980 for maggots, lobworms, wheat and corn: Gamakatsu gp106 for hemp and tares in size 18: for maggots on a mini helirig eyed Animal hooks in sizes 20, 18, 16.

I have a selection of pretied (by hand) hooks kept in 4x6 inch plastic sleeves (used for photos from EBay), two to a sleeve with a piece of paper separating them and kept in a wallet which is supposed to be used as a security wallet when travelling abroad. A simple system which works well.

 

[no-one in particular]

Regarding spade end hooks, it's hard to know what to say if you explain that you and millions of others have been using them life-long without any line problem, and someone who doesn't use them continues to insist that in theory they must be a danger to your line. The proof of the pudding, if we're getting proverbial, is in the eating.

An old joke:

Your theory's rubbish. I've got data.

Data schmata. I like my theory.

I dont think it is a theory, a spade end is a danger to the line.

 

[no-one in particular]

I am wondering about just a straight shaft and the line is glued to it.
I am also just wondering why a spade end at all. If you snipped off the spade and just flattened the end and smoothed it off with some emery paper so it was nice and rounded but enough of a bump so the knot could not pass over it. You would have the perfect hook.

 

[nottskev]

I dont think it is a theory, a spade end is a danger to the line.

It is? Then how have I and countless others used spade ends without problem for decades? Why so reluctant to accept what people tell you and what is so obviously, looking at the hooks sold, their use by highly successful anglers etc etc, the case?

Are there any other dangers we should be looking out for? Perhaps beavers?

 

[no-one in particular]

However, the truth is that I feel the exact opposite to you. To me, small eyed hooks look all wrong and sit all wrong. Extensive use of spades means that I share none of the doubts about them. If I had any doubts, rest assured, I'd be using eyed for everything. I could certainly make do with eyed if forced to, but I'd have to be forced.

I don’t dispute that eyed do not give as good a presentation as spade nor that you have never had a problem with them breaking. Nor re Whitty’s post that they catch lots of very large fish. What I dispute is that it never ever happens, could never happen, its impossible that it would happen and the spade is not a danger to the line. For me it’s just there in front of my eyes when I look at a spade end, there is a bloody relative large spiky sharp bit of metal right next to line and a potential abrasion point and/or snap off. I am just surprised no one thinks of this because it’s so obvious to me since I first started fishing. And although it might only happen once in a thousand sessions, it could happen and likely to happen at the worst moment. I don’t want that risk; I just don’t have that risk with eyed. I don’t use hooks less than a 16 and I get the eye is more of a problem when you get smaller, the eye becomes larger in relation to the hook but I never use smaller than a 16 and I don’t mind the presentation.