Tying spade end hooks and hooklengths,or the inability to.

[Mark Wintle]

Having watched Pete's video and re-read Kevin Ashurst's World Class Match Fishing I can at last tie hooks by hand. The knot in the Ashurst book is similar but whips from the spade down the shank. Twizzling the end makes it easier to tie. Here's the Ashurst book.

 

[bracket]

Glad you got the hang of it Mark. It is an easy thing to do but difficult to describe. I found that out when trying to explain it to a guy on a now defunct forum. That was the reason I made the home video. The video visual quality is not good, but my main aim was to describe the finger movements and positioning during tying. I thought this to be important. It is easy to look at a diagram of a knot and understand it's construction. How to manipulate your fingers to tie it is the tricky part, so I made a point of stressing this, maybe overly so. I had to put it on YouTube, as that was the only way I could find to get it onto the forum, a similar situation to this forum. The extract from Kevin's book is interesting, as he also, clearly, advocates the "back of the spade" approach. Pete.

 

[Mark Wintle]

So far I can tie down to an 18. In the time I tie one by hand I'd do three on the Esi-Tie as it's super efficient, and easy to tie down to a 26 to 0.06 (the actual smallest hooks I have are Mustad 90340 size 25 with very short shanks, harder than a long shank 30).

This thread has identified THREE knots for spade-ends. The knot from an Esi-Tie/Matchman tier which has the line trapped in a loop at the bend and tightened by the line. Your knot with the whipping towards the spade and the usual hand tie knot as shown in the Ashurst book with the whipping going away from the spade - this last is the best knot by far.

 

[wetthrough]

This is the way I've been doing it YouTube it's holding small hooks that presents the most difficulty the method itself is relatively easy. It'll no doubt suit some and not others. I've been trying some artery forceps with small pieces of innertube glued to the jaw faces but it's too soft.

 

[nottskev]

........the usual hand tie knot as shown in the Ashurst book with the whipping going away from the spade - this last is the best knot by far.

What leads you to say it's the best knot by far? How could it be shown to be better than the other two to anglers who've found either of those two entirely reliable? I've used the matchman for decades precisely because I never have to think a hook may come adrift or hooklength break at the knot. In general, I'm using lightish lines and smallish hooks, and if anything does go wrong it's not the hook knot, so it's hard to see what I'd gain by tying hooks on by a different knot.

 

[bracket]

Wetthrough. That's pretty slick. Puts me in mind of the child's game "cats cradle". It's amazing just how many knots there are and permutations of tying them. Pete.

 

[wetthrough]

That's not me just in case you thought it was!

 

[bracket]

That's not me just in case you thought it was!

That's a disappointment mate. I was well impressed. Pete.

 

[nottskev]

I may just have a blind spot on this, but I bought Kevin's book when it came out, and 40 years or so later I still can't fathom those hook-tying instructions. If you take B and try to take it round the shank, the rest of the loop and the tag end wants to follow, and things start to look wrong. And who would use their teeth to pull the line above the hook? As I say, it could be me, but I got a hook and a length of line just now, and it too me back to being as baffled as before. It may produce a good knot, but they're not great instructions.

 

[sam vimes]

I have successfully managed to tie a spade end hook with my fingers on a couple of occasions. I was quite pleased with myself at the time. However, that was warm and dry indoors. No matter how much practice I got, I doubt I'd have ever managed it in the cold and wet outside. Add the pile of discarded spoiled nylon into the equation and I'm afraid I went back to the hook tier.

Interesting to read that people think whipping down the shank is superior as it's exactly what the Drennan hook tier does.

 

[bracket]

What leads you to say it's the best knot by far? How could it be shown to be better than the other two to anglers who've found either of those two entirely reliable? I've used the matchman for decades precisely because I never have to think a hook may come adrift or hooklength break at the knot. In general, I'm using lightish lines and smallish hooks, and if anything does go wrong it's not the hook knot, so it's hard to see what I'd gain by tying hooks on by a different knot.

Nottskev. I agree. I tie up the shank to the spade. Never had a problem with hooks tied for myself and never had a single complaint about the tens of thousands I have tied for the trade. That's not to say my way is the only way to do it. It's already been evident from this thread that there are at least three and possibly more ways to satisfactorily tie a spade end hook. People choose that which they are happy with. If you can tie a knot that doesn't fail and lands you fish, then that's all you need. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Nice to have a good discussion and be made aware of the options and techniques involved. In the final analysis it comes down to personal choice and what you are happy with. If it works for you who's to say what's right or wrong. Pete

 

[rayner]

When I was capable of using my fingers I always whipped the line down the shank. If I got a stronger knot I'm not sure, It did take a while for me to get used to the the matchman when my fingers were hampered. I didn't like the way the knot was finished. Especially the way the tag end goes down the outside of the whipping before it's tucked.
With finger tying I'd whip the line down the shank then tuck the tag end. To me it was always a more tidy looking hook, with a dob of dope it gave nothing to snag casters.

 

[Mark Wintle]

I was too busy to do this yesterday but I've mocked up a hook shank in balsa to show the knots.
The first knot is the Matchman/Esi-tier knot with the tag trapped in a loop. Its weakness is that if the tag is cropped too tightly then the tag can come out so not 100% reliable. If the tag is too long then it can stick out at right angles to the shank and on very small hooks affect the hooking ability of the hook. Top marks for ease and speed of tying. Fairly neat.


the second knot is what I think Pete (Bracket) is tying but as it was hard to get to work at all I suspect something isn't right. It looks bulky and unreliable and was difficult to tie this way. Not my choice but may be completely wrong.



This final one is the Ashurst/Marks hand-tied knot with the tag end neat, secure and parallel to the shank. 100% relaible, Slower to tie than a hook tier-tied knot.

 

[nottskev]

Thanks for that! I'm impressed that you're getting to the bottom of these knots. I'm completely happy with the Matchman knot - but I rarely go below a size 20, and I can often get an 18 to work successfully, so I've not found the possible problems you mention. I'd like to be able to tie the Ashurst/Marks knot - because it's there! Any chance you could make the instructions in Kevin's book a bit less baffling?

 

[mikench]

I can’t believe I’m reading this thread. I must get out more.

 

[rich66]

I can’t believe I’m reading this thread. I must get out more.

Actually I’m finding it really good reading,knots have always interested me. Sad I know

 

[wetthrough]

That video I posted ties the same knot if you start with the tag end in front of the main line. I prefer it starting with the tag end behind. There's less tendency for the main line to unwind and end up some place other than in front or behind the spade.



edit: I don't think one is any more secure than the other.

 

[108831]

I can’t believe I’m reading this thread. I must get out more.

Educating Rita(i mean Mike)...

 

[John Keane]

Don’t like tying spade end hooks and never go below size 18 so my solution is to use these Gamakatsu GP107 and tie them on using the Knotless hair rig knot and simply cut the hair off. The up-eyed (fly hook term) design keeps the hook in line and it’s every bit as strong as the Domhof Knot used on a spade end.

Alternatively I buy spade end hooks to nylon if I want a specific design. Drennan do loads of good ones.

 

[108831]

Don’t like tying spade end hooks and never go below size 18 so my solution is to use these Gamakatsu GP107 and tie them on using the Knotless hair rig knot and simply cut the hair off. The up-eyed (fly hook term) design keeps the hook in line and it’s every bit as strong as the Domhof Knot used on a spade end.

Alternatively I buy spade end hooks to nylon if I want a specific design. Drennan do loads of good ones.

Excuse my enquiring mind,but doesn't that equate to having the hook shank hanging at say a thirty degree angle to the main line,it just isn't right presentation wise,i understand its a way of getting over not being able to tie them but i think buying hooks to nylon would be the only option in my case,either that or training the missus,lol...