The term "bumping fish"

[Mark Wintle]

I like to use very fine wire hooks for a lot of my roach fishing. I accept that I have to control the strike carefully and use fine mainlines to gain some stretch. I've tried the thick wire hooks for this type of fishing and my results are dire if I do so.

With grayling I fished for them a lot about ten years ago and quickly found a medium wire size 18 barbless the best by far; strike hard, play them hard and lose very few. Thick wire barbed don't penetrate that well, and the other benefit of barbless is that it's so much easier to unhook squirming grayling (and roach, dace etc.)

I'm starting to use barbless for most of my river fishing (I converted to barbless for stillwaters years ago) aprt from chub fishing in weedy water.

 

[tigger]

Regarding barbless hooks, I choose not to use them because imo they do far too much unseen damage to the fish.

 

[barbelboi]

Yes, mainly because many do not know how to unhook a barbed - that's where the damage is done...........

 

[Aknib]

I've tried the thick wire hooks for this type of fishing and my results are dire if I do so.

What do you put that down to Mark?

Is it an adjustment in the shotting that's required, to compensate for the heavier hook or is it just down to the (supposed?) higher visibility of the hook?

I was always bought up to believe that hooks should be as fine as you could get away with, especially when fishing on the drop but my own observations have told me that a hooked bait actually falls slower due to the aforementioned drag effect caused by the trailing line having to cut through the water and I've caught Roach whilst observing the larger ones backing off and ghosting away from what I presume is a slower falling bait to that of the loose feed?

I could of course whip on a finer wire hook but that would mean an even slower (than the loose feed and therefore more unnatural) fall rate of the bait.

I've not tried it to be honest as the logic doesn't stack up but if I remember I might give it a go come the Summer, on the same water where it's possible to observe, just to see if it makes a difference.

 

[Mark Wintle]

What do you put that down to Mark?

Is it an adjustment in the shotting that's required, to compensate for the heavier hook or is it just down to the (supposed?) higher visibility of the hook?

I was always bought up to believe that hooks should be as fine as you could get away with, especially when fishing on the drop but my own observations have told me that a hooked bait actually falls slower due to the aforementioned drag effect caused by the trailing line having to cut through the water and I've caught Roach whilst observing the larger ones backing off and ghosting away from what I presume is a slower falling bait to that of the loose feed?

I could of course whip on a finer wire hook but that would mean an even slower (than the loose feed and therefore more unnatural) fall rate of the bait.

I've not tried it to be honest as the logic doesn't stack up but if I remember I might give it a go come the Summer, on the same water where it's possible to observe, just to see if it makes a difference.

I've done so much on the drop fishing - well over 40 years - that it's almost instinctive to get the shotting right. My Stour fishing nowadays is almost entirely tares in summer/early autumn, bread in winter, but a I do a lot of stillwater fishing on the drop with maggots all year round. Ivan Marks reckoned much smaller, lighter hooks than most used, and I'll stick with his thinking.

 

[Aknib]

I've done so much on the drop fishing - well over 40 years - that it's almost instinctive to get the shotting right. My Stour fishing nowadays is almost entirely tares in summer/early autumn, bread in winter, but a I do a lot of stillwater fishing on the drop with maggots all year round. Ivan Marks reckoned much smaller, lighter hooks than most used, and I'll stick with his thinking.

It's a good enough reason.

It's still a curious conflict with what I've observed myself and there's no right or wrongs especially when you take into account the finicky variations in different waters but it does make me wonder and I still can't square it in my mind.

Maggot or small particle bait attached to hook = bait sinks quicker than loose feed.

Maggot or small particle bait attached to hook with trailing line = bait sinks slower than loose feed.

Does that suggest that fish in general will intercept the slower falling baits, irrespective of speed, just because they are easier pickings at the depth in the water where the fish are sitting (dependent upon conditions and competition) but the larger and wiser (?) specimens aren't buying it because they've noticed the difference?

It would tie in nicely, Ivan was very much the legendary match fisherman and not noted for specimen fishing.

On the water where I made my observations I couldn't juggle shot around to try and compensate for it because it's shallow to begin with (a silted up dam around twenty inches deep) and the fish were hitting the bait in the first ten inches of water, they were wary and there really wasn't that much depth to play with.

 

[bracket]

I am reading this thread with interest and am somewhat confused by what is being discussed. "Bumping fish" for me, is the occasion when you strike, feel instant contact and then nothing. I would interperate that as an instance when the fish has taken the bait, hence the contact but, for what ever reason, the hook has not set. This can happen, the bait can mask the hook and prevent penetration. We have all had maggots double over on a hook at one time. In this given situation it will matter not what type of rod you use, when you time the strike, or any other factor you want to consider, the fish is not in a position to be hooked. So you just shrug your shoulders and carry on. By way of illustration I recall fishing a match back in the 1960s and during a slack period went to see how my mate Frank Barlow was getting on. 23 roach and 6 b*stards, he said. So it's an unsolvable age old problem. The majority of comments on this thread are about losing fish off the hook, which is definitely about hooks, rods, the balance of tackle etc and something to which there is a resolution, if you can work it out. So bumping fish you have to live with, losing fish off the hook you don't. Pete.

 

[john step]

Mikench's post brought to mind another aspect. Mike you mention losing fish off the hook. Correct me if I am wrong but I interpret that as having a fish on for a short while and not strictly bumping.
Those lost like this I believe are more prevalent in heavier stocked club lakes or commercials type waters. I think that this is likely to be foul hooking after a line bite.
Carp particularly will pick up line on their anal fins with shot maybe catching behind the fin against the body for a second or two putting a bend in the rod and then it going slack.

Also I have had strong hooks like Animals opening up which I believe were foul hook ups on a scale on a carp which resulted in pressure at an acute angle causing the opening up.
Like bumping feeling but lasting a second or two instead of the almost instant bump.

 

[trotter2]

Interesting thread I remember reading ivan marks on bumping fish off the hook his advice was to use smaller hooks which encourage a more positive bite. And line that has stretch I think he was right as usual.

 

[laguna]

The action of the rod is vitally important but also consider slack lines verses tight lines - or a hard strike to set the hook or a lift type strike to set the hook home properly.

A grappling hook scenario!
If you were James Bond intent on 'grappling' Miss Moneypenny by getting into her top floor penthouse skylight, how would you go about scaling the walls using a grappling hook and a rope?
A. Give it a good tug to set it or B. apply gentle pressure first?

 

[Richox12]

4) Line choice. This one will really make some think I'm doolally. Use a very low stretch line, especially braid, and the amount of fish you bump will increase. To lessen the effect, you can use a lighter actioned, less powerful, rod. That was a significant factor in me going away from the use of braid for trotting. It was impacting on my rod choice too much.

You're not going mad. I fish braid on the waggler - sometimes I have to as it's the best line for the job. And I have to use a soft/mellow rod. It's by far the best combination.

 

[nottskev]

You're not going mad. I fish braid on the waggler - sometimes I have to as it's the best line for the job. And I have to use a soft/mellow rod. It's by far the best combination.

That's interesting - under what circumstances do you use braid on the waggler? Ages ago, I bought a spool of Fireline - I think it's 4lb - thinking I'd try it for something or other. It's still here in its box.

Not surprising to hear that braid demands "give" somewhere in the set up. When I first tried it for the feeder in the late 90's, even with a soft rod (Shakespeare Quattro) I soon bought some little stretchy links, about 12" long, that went between braid and hooklength. And even then, you picked the rod up gingerly.

 

[bullet]

Very good points made already, so apologies if repeating.
I think a lot of it comes down to if the fish are taking well or not, I've noticed this particularly with Grayling, some days I hook and land the vast majority, other days vitually all of them seem to fall off.
Same thing when fishing the fly for trout.
Re. Grayling again, I reckon hooks with slightly curved in points and heavier wire are more successful.
When I occasinally trot with a fixed spool, I find a prime "bumping off" time is after the strike and initial hold, when I am putting the bail back over to start retrieving.

 

[Richox12]

Fishing for small roach, say 2oz - 4oz - up in the water. It's those days when they are moving around a lot and maybe not 'having it' and you get lots of bites you miss no matter what depth and how much/little you feed etc. With nylon you might miss a bite, leave it, miss another bite, reel in and recast. With braid you can get a bite, 'twitch' it to set the hook. If you miss then you will move the float less and get 3 or 4 attempts at hooking something. More time in the water basically..

 

[silvers]

My opinion FWIW - I think we can lump pretty much all fish that come off within a couple of seconds of the strike in the "bumped off" category - even those that come off "for no reason" after a couple of turns on the reel handle.
The hook has been set inadequately - maybe not deep enough - maybe in to fragile a hook hold (eg. on the edge of the lip).
Putting aside all the other variables I'd also agree with the OP and the ananym that a larger, thicker wire hook will theoretically achieve a better hookhold,

However - I also know from experience that I will get many more bites on many occasions by using a smaller, finer gauge hook. Therefore to maximise the catch I need to compromise. A rod that is well balanced to the hooks I use does help that efficiency.

And lastly - as a real example - I've done a lot of rod & line canal fishing with tiny fine wire hooks over the years. Often this is for soft mouthed skimmers and roach. I use a specifically soft rod for this type of fishing that is much more efficient than a standard float rod at turning bites in to fish in the net.

 

[laguna]

Do you pole anglers experience less 'bumping off' due to the cushioning effect of elastic?

I use a whip quite a lot in the summer and just let a foot or so of excess line lay across the water 'slack', and whip it sideways to set the hook home whenever the float disappears. The amount of slack line will often determine how much 'cushioning' is imparted to prevent bump off's.

 

[silvers]

Elastic strength is related to hook size and strength in use (at least as much as it is to size of fish).
If you use 12 elastic set tight with a size 24 fine wire then you will bump lots of fish.
Equally - you'll struggle to hook up with a size 8 forged whilst using a no.2 elastic

 

[sam vimes]

Too heavy an elastic will result in more bumped smaller fish in exactly the same way as using too powerful a rod can.

 

[laguna]

Yep. Just as I thought.... Crabtree was a union rep!

The same principles apply to modern day elastic.

 

[tigger]

I've trotted with a 1.75lb test rod and had no problem hitting and catching everything from minnows to barbel. No bumped fish either.
The way I see it, if I hook (good hook hold) a small fish with a powerful rod the fish just gets dragged through the water a bit on the strike. If I hook a larger fish then the hook has a larger thicker lip to grip into and so the rod tip just bends more rather than the fish being dragged through the water.
It does happen from time to time and I do bump/loose the odd fish on the strike, but usually it turns out to be a blunt hook or the hook simply hasn't got a good hold and has just come free from the fish.