Right,a moan about spade end hooks...

[markcw]

Tubertini 808.

 

[RMNDIL]

I don’t get the problem. I use/have used Wide Gape 18/20 with 0.12/0.14 for chub fishing for years. Never had a problem. Caught some big chub and big bags of them.

So I just measured some from my tackle box with good quality digital calipers and compared to some Carbon Chub I have.

Wide Gape 18 = 0.39mm wire diameter and spade width 0.80mm

Wide Gape 20 = 0.36mm wire diameter and spade width 0.78mm

Carbon Chub 18 = 0.39mm wire diameter and spade width 0.88mm

Carbon Chub 20 = 0.35mm wire diameter and spade width 0.75mm

If you can tie 0.12 to the Carbon Chub 20’s you are not going to have a problem with Wide Gape in a 20 or an 18 and especially considering you have at least 0.2mm to play with.

 

[108831]

Maybe,or it could possibly be the shape of the spade,also it depends how much grief you have to give chub and how big said chub are....

 

[peterjg]

I haven't commented on this thread before because quite honestly I expect to be shot down in flames - but here goes:

What is this weird obsession with spade end hooks all about? They are horrible even on fine lines and small sizes. Earlier in this thread ****y123 said use eyed hooks tyed with a knotless knot - he was spot on! Does an eyed hook really weigh more than a spade end and will that extra weight (if it exists?) really effect presentation - no it won't!!!

Is the fact that the line coming from a spade end being in line better than the slight angle made from a knotless knot - no it is not! Also the knotless knot is actually a stronger knot - whatever knot is used for spade ends and having the slight angle with a knotless knot aids hooking.

I do have one slight reservation with the knotless knot and that it should be tied twice on each hook. That means that the line passes through the eye three times not twice. The hooks that I mainly use for roach are fine wired and have a very small whisker barb, the Kamasan B525. They come in small sizes but unfortunately the biggest size is only a 12. Other hooks used for roach are the B980 and Animal eyed. Unfortunately the Gamakatsu GP106 hooks are no longer made.

Sadly that very fine angler Keith Speer is no longer with us but he used eyed hooks tied as above and his catches were phenomenal.

The above name of another forum member has been automatically replaced with asterisks?

 

[108831]

I will not shoot you down in flames Peter,as it is your opinion and you are entitled to it,my views are different however,the angle isn't slight,at around 30°,which has to alter the way bait is presented,especially on the drop with small baits,on the float said angle gives no hooking advantage,as this is given by having something for the fish to hook itself against,i.e. a lead,so when float fishing doesn't apply imv,on heavier baits the knotless knot is excellent and a major game changer,I use eyed hooks for many types of fishing,but would use a grinner unless using the hair rig because it is superior in strength,as for Keith Speer,I thought he used spade ends for his trotting on maggot,but i'm probably wrong,regardless, other fine anglers I know,one of whom has had four 17lb+ barbel trotting on maggot,all on spade ends,size 18....

 

[Richox12]

Maybe,or it could possibly be the shape of the spade,also it depends how much grief you have to give chub and how big said chub are....

Same shaped spades and same leading angle. No difference on mine at all. No matter how much grief you have to give chub if the spades the same the spades the same. Unless yours are radically different to the norm.

 

[108831]

Right,after going to a tackle shop Thursday and bought two patterns of Drennan hooks,one on recommendation,both were awful,not because of coming of the spade,as I didn't hook anything worth mentioning to do that,but as hooks period,one lost its point just putting maggots on???? The other had a very short shank which with my sausage fingers made it very difficult putting maggots on,my next stop will be Rob's B510's

 

[Richox12]

Is the fact that the line coming from a spade end being in line better than the slight angle made from a knotless knot - no it is not! Also the knotless knot is actually a stronger knot - whatever knot is used for spade ends and having the slight angle with a knotless knot aids hooking.

I do have one slight reservation with the knotless knot and that it should be tied twice on each hook. That means that the line passes through the eye three times not twice. The hooks that I mainly use for roach are fine wired and have a very small whisker barb, the Kamasan B525. They come in small sizes but unfortunately the biggest size is only a 12. Other hooks used for roach are the B980 and Animal eyed. Unfortunately the Gamakatsu GP106 hooks are no longer made.

Unfortunately, sorry, I disagree.

Knotless knots in my experience are weaker than a whipping knot and actually weaker than most due to, I believe, the angle that the line needs to exit they eye and the angle it is then 'bent' to overcome the wire of the eye to be straight. Totally agree with Whitty above.

That horrible angle is awful for presentation of baits on small hooks especially. When fishing fine it is nowhere near good enough.

A B525 is about as fine an eyed hook as you can get. But still too heavy for many applications FOR ME. B980 are a heavy hook. And Animal even heavier (about 50% more compared to what I would want to use).

 

[Richox12]

Right,after going to a tackle shop Thursday and bought two patterns of Drennan hooks,one on recommendation,both were awful,not because of coming of the spade,as I didn't hook anything worth mentioning to do that,but as hooks period,one lost its point just putting maggots on???? The other had a very short shank which with my sausage fingers made it very difficult putting maggots on,my next stop will be Rob's B510's

Hate to say it but why buy short shank hooks if you cannot hold them ?? You did see them before you bought them.

 

[108831]

God knows Rich,I had them and kamasan B911's nearly slide off(after a big tussle)the spade,causing me to retie the hook,or change patterns,that is if I put five turns,or ten,makes no difference,on carbon chubs it never,ever happens,even with five turns,it is very frustrating because carbon chubs were available down to 24's,i've had loads of barbel and chub on 22's,never came off the spade,now most fairly strong patterns only go down to 20's or 22's and as I said earlier most of those are more like a size up,it is making my search more difficult,I tried some Maver hooks,look a great hook,just haven't got the strength in practice...

 

[108831]

Hate to say it but why buy short shank hooks if you cannot hold them ?? You did see them before you bought them.

To be honest mate,they were 20's and at a glance through the packet they looked ok,and because of the angler recommending them were worth a shout....

 

[peterjg]

Re the above posts concerning the angle of the line from a knotless knot: yes totally agree, at first the angle is too much but after the first fish the line is straightened and the angle is then spot on.

An interesting topic, so many viewpoints and opinions. I suppose the bottom line (no pun intended) is if you are happy with your results then why change.

 

[tigger]

Alan, have you looked at the drennan wide gape carp or margine carp hooks.
I've never seen them in the flesh but just been checking them out on drennan website and they go down to a 20's.

 

[sam vimes]

My own preference for spades is at least partly rooted in age and dogma. When I started out, it was with eyed hooks. However, pretty much every decent angler, well known or not, was using spades, so I did too. I used them despite them being more difficult to tie and learned to master them. I doubt I've used an eyed hook smaller than a 14 in thirty years other than in very specific circumstances (hook in loop or certain light specialist rigs). Only when (full on) carping, or legering for barbel, would I routinely used eyed hooks.

The chances of me using eyed hooks for the bulk of my fishing, which usually involves maggots, is virtually nil. The only thing likely to force a change is if spade end hooks disappear from the shelves. The prospect of that actually happening leaves me cold.

 

[RMNDIL]

Just had another look at mine (I did take a photo but no idea how to upload it) and as has already been mentioned now the shape and leading angle of the spades on my Carbon Chub and Wide Gape which I measured are, as near as damn it, identical. For these there is no logical reason why one would hold 0.12/0.14 line and the other not and plating makes no difference (they are both bronze finishes anyway) as the knot is held on the shank directly under the spade. So perhaps you have a whole batch of under-forged hooks. But you also say it's happening not to just those but other types as well.

 

[tigger]

I think kamasan animals are made down to a size 20s and in both spade and eyed.
Superspades and animals are my most used hooks, although I don't think superspades are made in barbless, just microbarbed.

 

[108831]

Alan, have you looked at the drennan wide gape carp or margine carp hooks.
I've never seen them in the flesh but just been checking them out on drennan website and they go down to a 20's.

Well the hook I said was very short in the shank was the wide gape carp in a 20 Ian,i'm beginning to doubt the hook industry,the thing is hooks are something you get to likr and appreciate they're qualities,you use these patterns for years,as did a lot of good match anglers I know,then the manufacturer dumps them off and replaces them with garbage,i've got a feeling that whereas hooks like carbon chubs were made in Japan,i'm just guessing,but i've got a feeling they are being made in China,like everything else and wonder whether the accuracy is as good limits wise.Kamasan animals and superspades are a little heavy in the wire for the roach and dace on our rivers down here,fine for barbel,but even the chub here turn away from badly presented maggots,yesterday I fished a swim that is full of chub,never saw one all day,had to be some taking the loose maggots I was feeding,plus I caught some roach,so surely the chub were feeding...

 

[sam vimes]

Well the hook I said was very short in the shank was the wide gape carp in a 20 Ian,i'm beginning to doubt the hook industry

Hook shanks have definitely got a little shorter over the years, such are the vagaries of fashion. However, at least part of that is down to the fashion for wider gapes and the perception that these wider gapes give. Merely by making the gape larger it makes the shank seem shorter, even when they aren't. I used a lot of Drennan Carbon Chub hooks over the years I also used a lot of Kamasan hooks, though the model number escapes me. There's no doubt that the hooks I use now appear to have shorter shanks. I've found a shorter shank makes no difference to my fishing and I positively prefer a wider gape. I still retain a curious penchant for a crystal bend, even though I've never really had a problem with round bend hooks.

 

[tigger]

At least you know the animals won't let you down and the spades are spot on.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate at using them for the most clued up roach.

 

[RMNDIL]

I think kamasan animals are made down to a size 20s and in both spade and eyed.
Superspades and animals are my most used hooks, although I don't think superspades are made in barbless, just microbarbed.

Barbless Super Spades are just called Margin Carp. Same hook they always were just renamed. And guess what ? They sell more !