Barbel and Nutrition

[FishingMagic]

This is a dedicated thread for discussing article: Barbel and Nutrition

 

[eddyfish]

Thanks for posting that, it needs to be read by as many as possible.

I have to agree with the HNV argument causing gigantism in fish and the subsequent problems with recruitment that can cause. I believe anglers are as much to blame for the barbel's demise as water abstraction, habitat lose and predation.

One can only hope that education (and experience) will stop anglers from using pellet and boilies in such large quantities. Sadly I think the problem develops by peoples ignorance of the species they fish for. There is a big difference between carp and barbel.

A few Summers ago, I spoke to two chaps who were struggling on the Dorset Stour.

One said: "I just can't understand it mate. We put enough bait in for them."

When I asked how much bait he had used, he said "About 5kg of pellet and 2kg of boilies." mg:

It beggars belief.

A small handful of pellets/boilies goes a long way in a river.

A lot cheaper too!

 

[dezza]

"About 5kg of pellet and 2kg of boilies

I haven't fished seriously for barbel for at least 5 years, but when I did I never put in the sort of quantities of bait mentioned. On the Trent it was no more than 1/2 a kg of pellets or half a bag of boilies when I used them. On the Yorkshire rivers it was no more than two cans of luncheon meat or 3 pints of maggots.

And I caught lots of barbel. In fact I have caught barbel from 13 rivers in the UK, with my share of doubles amongst them, but I much prefer the classic barbel streams such as the Trent or Swale.

After reading Fred's most interesting article, I get the impression that Fred's barbel experience might be confined to the little streams of the South, some of which might not be classic barbel waters. By classic waters I mean rivers where the barbel is indigenous. My experience of the Trent is such that I don't think you can put too much bait in. It's very likely that some 1/2 mile stretches of this river might hold more barbel than the whole of the River Lee.

Even in the old days, Trent barbelling often required enormous baiting programmes, thousand of lobworms and many stones of chandler's greaves were used. The Dorset Stour and non-classic barbel rivers like it will not stand enormous baiting programmes and I tend to agree with Fred here.

I certainly agree with Fred regarding his comments on smaller barbel. At about 6 to 8 lbs, barbel are at their best fighting weight. The double figure fish tending to be all weight and not much more. We should value the smaller fish far more than we do.

The next time I go barbelling and meet a guy who says that he has had a couple of schoolie fish, I am going to throw him in the river, old as I am.

 

[Neil Maidment]

Excellent work by Fred B., the BS and the FM Editorial team to publish this article to a wider audience.

I responded when the article appeared on Facebook. For those that don't do FB here it is:

"... Interesting comment on the Avon above Royalty. It was never heavily fished, albeit more so than today, but there was always a good head of fish including barbel.

1970's/1980's you could fish throughout Winkton, Sopley, Dudmoor, Avon Tyrell and beyond (mostly club waters), not see too many anglers but still find barbel in large numbers.

Certainly no huge volume of bait was going in on a continual basis. But caster, maggot & hemp with a bait dropper would regularly catch a lot and I particularly had numerous "bags" on the float.

The same could be said for the Stour. Back then there were plenty of barbel above Throop Weir (the old one!) with stunning catches of barbel from Parley, Redhill and Longham to those who could be bothered with the long walks!"

The Avon barbel of that era were typically long lean fish. Lots of fish around 4lb to 6lb with the occasional double. For many, many years this 11-06 fish was my heaviest. It was a huge fish in 1978 and still is!

Another stunner from the (very early) 1970's!

 

[eddyfish]

'Ere, whatcha trying to say about my river Ron? You'd better be careful saying that on the banks of the Royalty, it would be consider heresy and high treason rolled into one!

I think the vast majority of barbel fishing now a days is on smaller rivers, like the Kennet, the Avons, Ouse, Teme, Stour etc. so the advise in this article is spot on.

And even in a river as large as the Trent though I would say that using huge quantities of HNV's is still going to be a potential problem.

Please do not get me wrong I use pellets and boilies all the time on rivers, but it's about moderation. Many anglers think they can buy a bite with more bait and on most barbel rivers this can have severe effects on the fish that eat it.

(That bottom photo always makes me laugh Neil, I wonder if in 40 years I look back at my pictures and think the same thing: "What on earth possessed me to wear that hat?")

 

[Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)]

Neil,

Were you ever a model in your early years?

I'm sure I've seen you on the cover of some of my mum's knitting patterns?

 

[Neil Maidment]

I will admit to "piling it in" on the Royalty way back when, particularly on sessions in the Great Weir Compound or The Parlour. The accepted way was to typically feed gallons of maggot, caster and/or hemp and then sit on top of it. The volume of barbel in the area was sometimes truly immense. But even then, the huge catches (in terms of numbers) were punctuated by long barren periods!

Similarly on the Stour at Littledown (now Throop Beat 3). We could use hemp there whereas it was banned on Throop. A big heavy carpet of the magic seed soon brought in big shoals of mid sized barbel.

Bang up to date, just last month I had three excellent sessions on the Severn around Worcester where I fed very little via a small but heavy cage feeder, perhaps a total of just a couple of pints of micro pellet/hemp/gbait. Yet talking to a couple of guys, they intended to put in several kilos of big boilies and pellets over a period of days, regardless of conditions or catches!

---------- Post added at 18:46 ---------- Previous post was at 18:41 ----------

(That bottom photo always makes me laugh Neil, I wonder if in 40 years I look back at my pictures and think the same thing: "What on earth possessed me to wear that hat?")

Hat?

I'll have you know that was the must have barbel accessory of the 1960/70's ..... a plastic elasticated visor... the rest is my hair...... mg:

 

[Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)]

I think the vast majority of barbel fishing now a days is on smaller rivers, like the Kennet, the Avons, Ouse, Teme, Stour etc. so the advise in this article is spot on.

Please do not get me wrong I use pellets and boilies all the time on rivers, but it's about moderation. Many anglers think they can buy a bite with more bait and on most barbel rivers this can have severe effects on the fish that eat it.

(That bottom photo always makes me laugh Neil, I wonder if in 40 years I look back at my pictures and think the same thing: "What on earth possessed me to wear that hat?")

Spot on advice for small rivers like my beloved Teme.

I riddle all the larger food particles out of the groundbait/ method mix and use eight to ten 4mm pellets per feeder cast... meaning on an average short session I have usually used less than 80-90 tiny pellets spread across a number of swims.

Unfortunately others still apply the 'fill it in' approach which can ruin swims or even stretches for long periods of time...

 

[Neil Maidment]

Neil,

Were you ever a model in your early years?

I'm sure I've seen you on the cover of some of my mum's knitting patterns?

Cable Stitch jumpers were the big thing back in the 1960's. mg:

 

[dezza]

'Ere, whatcha trying to say about my river Ron? You'd better be careful saying that on the banks of the Royalty, it would be consider heresy and high treason rolled into one!

Well it's like this you see.

Barbel were introduced to the Dorset Stour around the turn of the 19/20th century with fish that were taken from the Thames and Kennet. A number of these fish managed to find there way into the Hampshire Avon of course. It's only around 100 years ago that this took place so The Avon and Stour can hardly be considered as classic barbel rivers.

Sorry, but they can't

In comparison, the Ouse, Ure, Swale, Nidd, Wharfe, Derwent and Swale of Yorkshire; the Trent and some of its tributaries together with the Thames and a few of its tributaries have been the homes to barbel for hundreds of thousands of years.

They qualify as the great classic barbel rivers.

During the early part of the 20th century, the Trent became badly polluted. This may have resulted in the transfer of Thames barbel to the Stour, to provide barbel fishing in another part of the country that wasn'r so polluted. Great barbel anglers such as FWK Wallis and Ken Clower, both Nottingham men, used to travel down to Christchurch on the train, stay in local inns and fish the Avon.

 

[Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)]

Well it's like this you see.

Barbel were introduced to the Dorset Stour around the turn of the 19/20th century with fish that were taken from the Thames and Kennet. A number of these fish managed to find there way into the Hampshire Avon of course. It's only around 100 years ago that this took place so The Avon and Stour can hardly be considered as classic barbel rivers.

Sorry, but they can't

In comparison, the Ouse, Ure, Swale, Nidd, Wharfe, Derwent and Swale of Yorkshire; the Trent and some of its tributaries together with the Thames and a few of its tributaries have been the homes to barbel for hundreds of thousands of years.

They qualify as the great classic barbel rivers.

Just out of interest Ron... by that logic what do you consider the great classic carp venues?

You know me mate, I'm not jockeying for an argument...

Just interested in your opinion on the timeframe necessary for a water to become considered either 'natural' or 'classic'?

How long does it take for introduced fish to acheive an appropriate level of social (amongst fishermen) and environmental (amongst resiedent populaions) acculturation?

 

[Sean Meeghan]

Whilst I accept Fred's argument goes some way to explaining the increase in barbel weights, one question I would ask is does this explain the increase in weights on the Trent?

As Ron says, the Trent is probably the most prolific barbel river in the UK with the possible exception of the Wye. It is also a big river and, relatively speaking, a fair way North. There are stretches of the Trent miles in length that hardly see an angler, yet they are still producing exceptionally large fish.

Am I right in thinking this?

 

[cg74]

Just out of interest Ron... by that logic what do you consider the great classic carp venues?

You know me mate, I'm not jockeying for an argument...

Just interested in your opinion on the timeframe necessary for a water to become considered either 'natural' or 'classic'?

How long does it take for introduced fish to acheive an appropriate level of social (amongst fishermen) and environmental (amongst resiedent populaions) acculturation?

I can fully see Ron's train of thinking but if you were to ask barbel anglers where they would call the true "classic barbel" water, despite it not being an indigenous river to the species, most would say the Hampshire Avon Royalty stretch. Even ahead of Great Ouse's Adams Farm.
And to me a water can never gain "natural" status unless the resident fish present are truly indigenous - Indigenous/natural; the same thing to me.

Back to the article; an interesting read, not that I agree with a lot of what's written.

Firstly Signal crayfish are eaten by barbel, sorry Fred I've seen the evidence in my landing net.

Maggots.
"The fish could, and did, gorge on them all day long because the amount and calorific value of digestible material contained within the larvae is small."

I was always under impression that excluding the water found within, a maggot normally offers a greater degree of nutritional value than the food it ate?

To use the term "obese proportions" implies the fish are carrying an excess of body fat, so can someone tell how much fat a fit 'more natural' looking 8-10lb barbel has and how much a "obese" 16lber carries?

Staying with the weight issue, I always thought barbel produced spawn levels pro-rata with its body weight, 10,000 eggs per kilo or there abouts. So would it not be plausible that with increased body mass, the quantity of spawn would increase?

I would be more inclined to look at habitat issues and female hormone (Oestrogen) levels in the water. As I know for a fact that if female pigs (I know they aren't the same as fish) are subjected to low levels of Oestrogen they will display full signs of Oestrus (heat) and even conceive but their release of eggs is greatly suppressed and where 12-14 piglets would be expected, only 4-6 will come about.
I'd be more inclined to look into that than "obese" fish.

If a reduction in a species numbers comes about as a result of reproductive failure and the biomass void is not filled by another, then it stands to reason that this will make a glut of available food for the rremaining fish?
And I'm pretty certain on many rivers even a modest 1`c rise in the average water temp, give the barbel an extended window of 'prime' feeding opportunity of upto an extra 4-6 weeks per year?

Why less barbel in many rivers:
I say poor habitat, right down to silted gravel starving fertilised spawn suffocating. Poor food availability for juvenile fish. Hormone burden in the water..... the list is endless....



I certainly ain't changing my bait, yet!

 

[eddyfish]

Hi Ron,

As a fish geek I did know that. They were introduced into the Littledown Stretch of the Stour and believe it or not colonised the Avon via Christchurch harbour which is very nearly salt water. The transfer of fish still happens BTW.

A lot of fish populations are indigenous to the east of England. This of course is because it was connected to the Rhine by Doggerland, the land bridge to mainland Europe. Most of the cyprinids only colonised our rivers after the last ice age (approx 10,000 BCE). One fish species still only lives in the East - the spined loach. Crucian carp, chub, barbel and ruffe, all spread out from the East either by natural means or introduction. So you could say that the only classic barbel rivers are in Germany and Holland!

Not sure why all that is relevant to the article but judging by previous posts I'm fairly sure Neil has some pictures of it happening....

The Trent is interesting though, but by the sheer fact that people are catching them then there must be bait going in? Are the power stations still pumping out warm water? Couple a warmer river with HNV's might go some way to example the high growth. Only a theory.

 

[dezza]

Are the power stations still pumping out warm water? Couple a warmer river with HNV's might go some way to example the high growth. Only a theory.

I'm afraid by making this statement eddy, you appear to know very little about the Trent. If you want me to bore readers by stating how the power stations stopped pumping out water I will do. The Trent is very close to how it looked in the early part of the 19th century, The water can be crystal clear and certainly there are around 30 species of fish swimming in its waters.

I can fully see Ron's train of thinking but if you were to ask barbel anglers where they would call the true "classic barbel" water, despite it not being an indigenous river to the species, most would say the Hampshire Avon Royalty stretch. Even ahead of Great Ouse's Adams Farm.
And to me a water can never gain "natural" status unless the resident fish present are truly indigenous - Indigenous/natural; the same thing to me.

These rivers simply have no provenance from a barbel point of view. I would ask all of you who object to this to read JW Martin or Henry Coxon or William Bailey, or even JHR Bazley. These people understood barbel better than, dare I say it, the anglers of the Thames! Martin in later life moved to London and set up a tackle shop. Using the knowledge of barbel he learned from the Trent, Martin virtually taught the local Thames anglers how to target these fish.

Whilst I accept Fred's argument goes some way to explaining the increase in barbel weights, one question I would ask is does this explain the increase in weights on the Trent?

As Ron says, the Trent is probably the most prolific barbel river in the UK with the possible exception of the Wye. It is also a big river and, relatively speaking, a fair way North. There are stretches of the Trent miles in length that hardly see an angler, yet they are still producing exceptionally large fish.

Am I right in thinking this?
__________________

Yes Sean, you are right.

---------- Post added at 21:47 ---------- Previous post was at 21:35 ----------

Sean,

200 years ago, the Trent was capable of producing very big barbel, and this wasn't just a reasult of heavy feeding with lobworms and greaves. Martin spoke about 17 pounders from the Gainsborough area. Most of the very big barbel like today, came from the tidal reaches.

Some of the best barbel swims on the Trent are located far from the madding crowd, entailing long walks. The biggest fish caught from the Trent in recent years have never been reported. In fact amongst the top Trent barbellers, keeping schtum about what is caught is part of a code of conduct.

Personally I'm starting to become more interested in Trent barbel again and this next year I hope to fish a few areas that hadly ever see a rod from one year to the next, yet they are stuffed with barbel, big fish too.

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ----------

As Ron says, the Trent is probably the most prolific barbel river in the UK with the possible exception of the Wye

The Wye is certainly not a classic barbel river. It WAS a classic salmon river but has been invaded by barbel at man's behest!

---------- Post added at 22:20 ---------- Previous post was at 22:06 ----------

by that logic what do you consider the great classic carp venues?

Carp are a different species to barbel. No-one knows for sure how carp got here. For those interested in the history of carp in the UK I would strongly recommend that they read: "A History of Carp Fishing Re-visited" by Kevin Clifford. Probably the Romans brought them.

The history of carp angling is quite recent. It was thought by many that carp were uncatchable and that serious carp fishing was not worth the effort.

Then along came **** Walker.

Classic carp waters?

Benniworth Haven, Croxby Pond, Hunstrete Lake, Wadhurst Lake, Bradmere, Cheshunt Reservoir, Stoneham, Dagenham, Bernithan Court, Temple Pool, Mapperley Lake, Hartwith Mill Dam, Chapel Wheel Pond.

All these waters have tremendous provenance.

 

[chav professor]

An interesting article. I was talking in the shop the other day about the prospect of a lake that used to hold Bream to record proportions. That old cohort has long since died off, the new cohort was described as coming along nicely and due to the quality of the food offered by carp anglers, many are now approaching double figures - a perfectly plausable connection between bait and un-natural growth rates.

I shuddered when some Trent anglers where fishing the Hampshire avon a few seasons ago. Buckets of pellets, massive great method feeders and bivvies set up for a day ticket water (well it was raining - and at one point I did take refuge)

Un-surprisingly this method did not work out on this particular day in high summer. But what i suspect is that Barbel did find that bait eventually and probably killed off the fishing in that area for days.

I think that bait has to be considered a factor in growth rates, but I am not sure I go along with the loss of fucundity. There are plenty of rivers (non-barbel ones in particular) that do not see any HNV baits or pellets and they also have larger specimens of certain types of fish.

I am also surprised Sygnal crayfish are written off as a reason fish have gained massive weights.

I suspect there is something more sinister involved in why fish numbers are plummeting. I don't even think predation can be cited as the major factor - in fact I consider this to be a red herring. whilst we are bickering about otters and commorants, the water companies can carry on discharging 'treated water' into river systems and abstraction can carry on as normal. I am shocked that lovely shiney gravel that existed not 5 years ago is now silted over - The future is not bright.

Responsable bait usage is a super message, but I wish it were that simple.

 

[dezza]

I am shocked that lovely shiney gravel that existed not 5 years ago is now silted over

Without that shiny gravel, and swift flowing water, barbel will not spawn!

I think that this is by far more the reason for the reduction in barbel numbers on southern rivers. Also, lack of rain and too many buildings preventing rain from reaching the aquifers. This is particularly common in the overpopulated south. On the Trent, the Barbel seen to have spawned recently as plenty of small barbel are being caught.

I caught 3 of about 3 ounces each this last summer.

 

[chav professor]

Without that shiny gravel, and swift flowing water, barbel will not spawn!

I think that this is by far more the reason for the reduction in barbel numbers on southern rivers. Also, lack of rain and too many buildings preventing rain from reaching the aquifers. This is particularly common in the overpopulated south. On the Trent, the Barbel seen to have spawned recently as plenty of small barbel are being caught.

I caught 3 of about 3 ounces each this last summer.

Your right there Ron, and that river sees plenty of pellets. (though I must confess what i know about barbel fits on a postage stamp!!!! The nearest barbel river to me is an hour and a half away)......

 

[dezza]

Another aspect of this article from Fred Crouch is the references to "oversized" barbel.

Without doubt, we anglers are becoming over obsessed with oversized fish. I say "over" obsessed, because what red blooded angler does not like catching big fish? We all do.

Well with the exception of some match anglers perhaps.

But Fred raised this subject and I tend to agree with him. What is a specimen fish anyway?

Is an obese overweight "Frenchesque" woman the perfect specimen of female anatomy?

Not only that but wiry lightweight athletes have more staying power than overweight slobs. Whenever did you see an overweight slob running the marathon?

 

[Lee Swords]

Hello,

Long time no post you may say...yes, I suppose it is.

So here goes.

I like Fred and I respect his opinion but for the most part I believe that he is incorrect or is only partially correct at best on some of his conclusions, this does not however mean that I wish to detract from anything he has said but would rather my own opinion and observations over 25 years of barbel fishing be taken into consideration.

1. Barbel do not have a poor digestive system.

They have a different digestive system and one that cannot be compared or judged against that of a mammalian species, the simple fact that the have put weight on proves that they are "digesting" food efficiently. Fish will however at some points gorge themselves to the point where they will expel poorly digested food item, this however is not unusual in the natural world and even mammals will do this. Why do you think dogs eat their own faeces? And Mountain Gorillas always eat their morning constitutional...it is still nutritious and provides a warm meal on a cold morning.

2. Size relevant to poor recruitment

Possibly...to a certain extent but how many times have you seen a fat lass pushing a pram?

I would say that the general decline of our river systems through abstraction and the increase in such things a diffuse pollution and electrification have conspired to produce food rich environments that are capable of producing vastly out-sized fish ( Red Belly and co showed signs of hermaphroditism as do many other fish due to the increase in female hormones entering the river systems) but at the same time these same rivers cannot offer viable outlets for sustainable recruitment.

The Trent recruits year on year and at any time I can catch fish from 12oz to 12lb.

The poor recruitment on these " Premier waters" has now been compounded by the introduction of the Signal Cray which is more than capable of digging out any barbel spawning ground ( I kept a couple as pets for a year or two so I know what they can and cannot dig out)and the less said about the Otter the better but they certainly have not improved the situation on these smaller intimate waters.

3. Over feeding is bad

Yes it can be, I have long said that the high oil trout pellet is capable of packing weight onto a barbels (cyprinids) liver just as I have seen it do in farmed salmon ( I have gutted hundreds of farmed salmon as a chef and they look totally different to wild fish in the giblets department).

However there is a choice...don't use hi-oil fish based pellets...use TemeSevern pellets that have 30%+ more vegetable based pellets than other brands which are still highly attractive to barbel but at the same time are healthier for the fish in the long term.

I can use a vast amount of bait in a session but I am not trying to winkle out a specific fish...My goal is to catch all the fish in a ten mile radius :O)

This year alone I have had several 100lb catches of barbel with my best being 5 doubles in a 300lb + mixed net over 24 hours. I have seen 200lb catches of bream and 100lb catches of chub and all of them were taken on mass baiting regimes.

These chaps that complain that they cannot catch even after "piling it in" are most likely not Northern anglers as we have a saying up here that goes along the lines of "you cannot catch what isn't in front of you" Or for those too dumb to understand that saying I will simplify it " If there are no fish in the river you will blank regardless of bait or technical ability"

Many of the smaller venues are dying especially the southern waters, there are too many people in the UK, people are part of the biomass as well and these rivers can only support so many of us.

Say no to 70 million!

Ok, that's me done. I have had my say and will now disappear back into the ether.

Tata for now


Lee