Angling and the Food Chain

[FishingMagic]

This is a dedicated thread for discussing article: Angling and the Food Chain

 

[Paul Boote]

I believe that I kept screengrabs of some of the juicier stuff that followed my occasional, gentle and not in-yer-face postings of something very very similar to Mark's piece above on a whiskery site several years ago; with many of those who replied appearing to feel particularly aggrieved about my mentioning mass pellet-users, their weighing mats, Ten Commandments handling codes and contempt for anyone responsible for the slightest split dorsal, and apparent desire to see the immediate disappearance of certain predators.

Oh well, can't win 'em all....

 

[tiinker]

What you say in the article may well be true if so the answer is to stop fishing. But we all know that is not going to happen . So we will carry on doing what we do with maybe the vague hope it will carry on come what may.

 

[Paul Boote]

I wonder which we'll run out of first though - oily fish for our pellets or oil for our cars? Or fish to fish for, maybe....?

 

[sam vimes]

You don't need to be as abstract as to examine our baits to question our ethics and the "I care more than you" fish care arms race. The simple fact that we stick hooks in fish ensures hypocrisy if we shout too loudly about conservation and fish care. The best thing we could possibly do to aid fish care would be to desist in sticking hooks in them. Most anglers ideas of conservation are not the altruistic virtue they like to think. Anglers generally wish to conserve fish in a way that few others do, no bad thing, and not just for fish. They may also care for other aspects of the surrounding ecology. However, the prime reason is to ensure their future enjoyment and little else. Nothing wrong with that, but, at least be honest about it. The rest is just PR spin to make what we do more acceptable to the urban masses, that would happily see us go the way of the chaps in red coats that ride horses.

 

[Paul Boote]

The rest is just PR spin to make what we do more acceptable to the urban masses, that would happily see us go the way of the chaps in red coats that ride horses.

Wrong. The vast majority of the public do not mind us guys at all, just see us as harmless eccentrics.

Look what (even) The Guardian had to say today about the new Tarrant TV offering:


Chris Tarrant Goes Fishing, 7pm, Channel 5

Lucky Chris Tarrant. The self-confessed fishing nut gets a dream gig as he indulges his passion in the Maldives. As he waxes lyrical about the mighty wahoo fish, he makes everything sound as if he's giving the answers on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?. It's actually quite endearing and the scenery is beautiful, but the most refreshing thing is when Tarrant addresses the issue of whether fishing is cruel, before proudly holding his catch aloft and then throwing it back in the ocean. Hannah Verdier


TV highlights 01/11/13 | Television & radio | The Guardian

 

[sam vimes]

Wrong. The vast majority of the public do not mind us guys at all, just see us as harmless eccentrics.

I'm not suggesting that they are actively seeking angling's demise in anything like the same way as foxhunting. However, if angling were banned tomorrow, most of the urbanite majority wouldn't bat an eyelid.

 

[Paul Boote]

As with many other things that scarcely register with or affect the majority, Sam.

 

[MarkTheSpark]

You don't need to be as abstract as to examine our baits to question our ethics and the "I care more than you" fish care arms race. The simple fact that we stick hooks in fish ensures hypocrisy if we shout too loudly about conservation and fish care. The best thing we could possibly do to aid fish care would be to desist in sticking hooks in them.

You are confusing fish welfare with conservation, Sam. We all do our best to keep our individual fish as healthy as possible, but that's not what the comment was about; it's about preserving biodiversity - a much more important aim.

 

[sam vimes]

You are confusing fish welfare with conservation, Sam. We all do our best to keep our individual fish as healthy as possible, but that's not what the comment was about; it's about preserving biodiversity - a much more important aim.

I'm not confusing them, (hence "conservation and fish care") I just feel that they are inextricably linked in the mindset of modern angling. Part and parcel of the same effort to prove to the wider world just how much we care.

 

[MarkTheSpark]

I'm not confusing them, (hence "conservation and fish care") I just feel that they are inextricably linked in the mindset of modern angling. Part and parcel of the same effort to prove to the wider world just how much we care.

You may well be right, Sam, but it's time we all divorced the two permanently. We certainly seem to think a pond full of stocked carp is a more healthy fishery than a river with a natural stock of fish. Like saying a chicken farm is a better place to go birdwatching because you can't fail to see birds.

I am at a critical point these days with regards eating fish. I am about to stop eating anything I don't catch myself. That, I believe, is how seriously we should be taking the state of the oceans. I was in Padstow two years ago, and on the quayside was a wetfish van, with loads of holidaymakers cooing about how the seafood in Cornwall is so good.

But apart from a few mackerel, crab and mussels, there was not a single fish for sale which hadn't been caught somewhere else. It's a real crisis.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

"Of course, the halibut pellets we use on the hook are made from fishmeal, too, so even if we don’t fish for trout, we contribute to the demise of ‘baitfish’ stocks when we go barbel and carp fishing. And now there’s a new entrant to the angling market which undermines our claim to be ethical."

Now come on, I wonder just how many (or is that how few) hundreds or thoudands of tonnes get used by anglers in the course of a year as pellets?

I would suggest that compared to the mountains of illegally caught, or hoovered up fishy resources just in Europe alone it would be a lot less than your example of a drop in a bucket.

Even if I used pellet, which only happens probably twice a year, I certainly wouldn't be worried about the priciples to be totally honest.

There are far more important things on this imperfect earth to become a Travel Agent for Guilt Trips about Mark.

 

[sam vimes]

You may well be right, Sam, but it's time we all divorced the two permanently. We certainly seem to think a pond full of stocked carp is a more healthy fishery than a river with a natural stock of fish. Like saying a chicken farm is a better place to go birdwatching because you can't fail to see birds.

There are plenty of examples of our double standards on this score. The example in the article and yours put our conservationist credentials to the test. That's before you even consider the much more contentious issues surrounding the various predators, be they of fin, feather or fur type. No matter what the rights or wrongs, it's a bit difficult to claim to be a genuine altruistic conservationist when calling for culls of anything. Genuine conservation doesn't stop with the particular species/type of plant/animal you are particularly interested in. Naturally, that should apply equally to those with a different, even opposing, agenda to our fishcentric outlook.

 

[tiinker]

"Of course, the halibut pellets we use on the hook are made from fishmeal, too, so even if we don’t fish for trout, we contribute to the demise of ‘baitfish’ stocks when we go barbel and carp fishing. And now there’s a new entrant to the angling market which undermines our claim to be ethical."

Now come on, I wonder just how many (or is that how few) hundreds or thoudands of tonnes get used by anglers in the course of a year as pellets?

I would suggest that compared to the mountains of illegally caught, or hoovered up fishy resources just in Europe alone it would be a lot less than your example of a drop in a bucket.

Even if I used pellet, which only happens probably twice a year, I certainly wouldn't be worried about the priciples to be totally honest.

There are far more important things on this imperfect earth to become a Travel Agent for Guilt Trips about Mark.

If I felt guilty about my fishing then I would pack it in we go fishing for our own enjoyment and that is a end to it. What we do as anglers is up to us as individuals. Why worry what other people think and do just do your own thing.

 

[MarkTheSpark]

"Of course, the halibut pellets we use on the hook are made from fishmeal, too, so even if we don’t fish for trout, we contribute to the demise of ‘baitfish’ stocks when we go barbel and carp fishing. And now there’s a new entrant to the angling market which undermines our claim to be ethical."

Now come on, I wonder just how many (or is that how few) hundreds or thoudands of tonnes get used by anglers in the course of a year as pellets?

I would suggest that compared to the mountains of illegally caught, or hoovered up fishy resources just in Europe alone it would be a lot less than your example of a drop in a bucket.

Even if I used pellet, which only happens probably twice a year, I certainly wouldn't be worried about the priciples to be totally honest.

There are far more important things on this imperfect earth to become a Travel Agent for Guilt Trips about Mark.

In think I acknowledged the small effect angling may have on these issues, but they are issues. And there are few issues I think more important than the health of the world's oceans (or any other habitat, for that matter).

As for principles, they aren't a question of degree; that's kind of the point with principles. So you compromise a principle of not wanting to contribute to industrial fishing (assuming you have one) even if you use one pellet, or catch one stocked trout.

More to the point, the article is to draw the problem of over-fishing to the attention of FM readers.

---------- Post added at 14:24 ---------- Previous post was at 14:23 ----------

If I felt guilty about my fishing then I would pack it in we go fishing for our own enjoyment and that is a end to it. What we do as anglers is up to us as individuals. Why worry what other people think and do just do your own thing.

My mate the badger baiter said the same thing....

 

[The bad one]

Mark I see and recognise the laudable issue and points you are trying to make, but here’s the problem for the ethical angler who may not wish to contribute further to the problem.
There is fishmeal out there that comes from sustainable sources, after all it’s waste product that can’t be sold as fish product for human consumption, but we are denied information by the manufacturers, suppliers, tackle trade and shops out there, which it is and whether they are partly, whole using it.
This might be our fault as the body angling for not asking where the pellet we us comes from. Sustainable or unsustainable sources and refusing the latter to bring pressure down on the tackle shops and trade to source only pellet from the former.

As we know consumer pressure if targeted in coherent way changes attitudes throughout the whole chain of products. Hugh Fernley being a case in point as far as fish go.
One for the ATr and HFW perhaps?

 

[sagalout]

We (the human race) can't conserve because there are to many of us. We will continue to use all natural resources until we cannot survive. Before you congratulate yourself because you only use sweetcorn or bread just remember that would feed a starving person, or the £3 you spent on maggots this week would have provided food for two starving kids for a week. There just ain't enough to go round.

 

[MarkTheSpark]

Mark I see and recognise the laudable issue and points you are trying to make, but here’s the problem for the ethical angler who may not wish to contribute further to the problem.
There is fishmeal out there that comes from sustainable sources, after all it’s waste product that can’t be sold as fish product for human consumption, but we are denied information by the manufacturers, suppliers, tackle trade and shops out there, which it is and whether they are partly, whole using it.
This might be our fault as the body angling for not asking where the pellet we us comes from. Sustainable or unsustainable sources and refusing the latter to bring pressure down on the tackle shops and trade to source only pellet from the former.

As we know consumer pressure if targeted in coherent way changes attitudes throughout the whole chain of products. Hugh Fernley being a case in point as far as fish go.
One for the ATr and HFW perhaps?

Awareness is half the battle, and maybe ATr could do a little more to bring this up, after all it is a sea fishing issue.

 

[thx1138]

If I felt guilty about my fishing then I would pack it in we go fishing for our own enjoyment and that is a end to it. What we do as anglers is up to us as individuals. Why worry what other people think and do just do your own thing.

... ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons?

Every foodchain has it's weak points. The fish we harvest for food are usually somewhere up that chain, and so the impacts are limited only to higher predators.
However, take out from the base of the food pyramid, and it spells big trouble for lots of other species, not just fish. I've seen how reductions in sandeel populations directly affects seabirds like shag and puffin.

I'd love to see a kite mark reassuring us that our baits are coming from sustainable sources. There is something fundamentally not right about using ground-up, sometimes endangered marine species as a bait so we can catch coarse fish - just to throw them back.

 

[laguna]

There is a slow but definite shift in aquaculture from fishmeal protein to chicken and fish bi-products, not because of any conscientious reason, more to do with shortages and the increasing expense. Unfortunately not many anglers will accept this new fandangled protein and will continue to insist on a 'proper' bait!

China is the real culprit for the global decline of fish stocks, they buy up any and all surplus catches and stock pile, Peruvian anchovy (the world's most heavily exploited fish) a case in point... even El Niño years dont stop them