Can Fish Feel Pain? The Old Chestnut...

Cliff Hatton

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http://www.fishingmagic.com/news_events/headlines/18429-fish-cannot-feel-pain-say-scientists.html

Fish cannot feel pain say scientists
By Josie Ensor, Daily Telegraph 22 hours 49 minutes ago


This article from the Daily Telegraph, 2013, bears repetition. The Great (old) Debate 'Do Fish Feel Pain?' is, thankfully, on the public's back-boiler - and has been for some time. But the issue will return at some point and the info shown here should put readers in a more advantageous position.

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For years a row has raged over whether angling is a cruel sport, and now researchers have waded into the debate by claiming that fish cannot feel pain.
A study has found that, even when caught on a hook and wriggling, the fish is impervious to pain because it does not have the necessary brain power.
The research, conducted by a team of seven scientists and published in the journal Fish and Fisheries, concluded that the fish’s reaction to being hooked is in fact just an unconscious reaction, rather than a response to pain.
Fish have already been found to have “nociceptors” - sensory receptors that in humans respond to potentially damaging stimuli by sending signals to the brain, allowing them to feel pain.
However, the latest research concluded that the mere presence of the receptors did not mean the animals felt pain, but only triggered a unconscious reaction to the threat.
The latest findings contradict previous research, which suggested that these nociceptors enabled the creatures to feel reflexive and cognitive pain.

In an earlier study done by the University of Edinburgh, rainbow trout were injected in the lips with an acid solution.
Researchers pointed to the fish’s behavioural changes, such as them rubbing their mouths on the gravel, and moving in a rocking motion similar to that seen in stressed mammals, as evidence of pain.
However, the new research, which reviewed a series of studies conducted over the years, discovered that only an extremely small number of “C fibres” - a type of nociceptor responsible for pain - can be found in trout and other fish.
Professor James Rose from the University of Wyoming in the US, who led the study, also found that the fish brain does not contain the highly developed neocortex needed to feel pain, so do not experience it in any meaningful way like humans.
He concluded that fish are able to experience unconscious, basic instinctive responses, but that these did not lead to conscious feelings or pain.
The trout’s reactions in the earlier study were therefore not ones of discomfort, as they lack the capacity to experience it, Prof Rose found.
The new research also referred to a study done on fish which were caught with a hook and then released.
The fish resumed feeding and normal activity immediately or within minutes and went on to show good long-term survival, which indicated they had not experienced pain.
Professor Robert Arlinghaus, one of the team’s researchers, said the presumption that fish feel pain has hindered scientists for decades and has stigmatised anglers.
“I think that fish welfare is very important, but I also think that fishing and science is too,” he said.
“There are many conflicts surrounding the issue of pain and whether fish can feel it, and often anglers are portrayed as cruel sadists. It's an unnecessary social conflict.”
Mark Lloyd, head of the Anglers’ Trust, said: “This debate about fish feeling pain has always been a red herring, so to speak.
“Anglers care passionately about the protection of fish stocks and do more than any other group to protect and improve freshwater and marine environments.
“Modern fishing tackle and techniques mean that fish which are released have an excellent survival rate and if fish are to be eaten, then angling is by far the most sustainable way of catching them.”
An RSPCA spokesman said: “There are a number of studies which we believe provide enough evidence to show that fish do feel pain and this remains our view.”
 

thecrow

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Perhaps those that believe that fish can feel pain would be better served finding out if they do while being gutted alive on board factory ships.

Researchers and scientists often come up with the results that are wanted by whoever is paying the money to fund the research.

In my opinion fish are incapable of feeling pain as we do, if someone stuck a hook into my lip I certainly would not be running away for all I was worth, no I believe that fish panic (fight or flight) when they know that something doesn't feel right/natural and all the silly experiments such as injecting acid into their lips will never persuade me otherwise.
 

tigger

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I would say without a doubt fish feel pain, thing is they haven't got the intelligence to realize that pulling will cause more pain and so will pull harder to try and escape it.
I reckon the pain will be quite minimal though and mostly as the hook actually penetrates the skin so I can live with that. For their moment of pain they do get free food, habitat protection etc etc from anglers so they do get a balanced deal :).
 

Graham Elliott 1

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When one of the Peta nutters wrote to the Daily Mail letters regarding "screaming fish" the paper was good enough to print my response.

I cited an incidence on the Hants Avon when I caught a salmon parr and then slipped it back to its lie. Not once but 4 times as an experiment.

If they feel pain they certainly have a short memory span!
 

tigger

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When one of the Peta nutters wrote to the Daily Mail letters regarding "screaming fish" the paper was good enough to print my response.

I cited an incidence on the Hants Avon when I caught a salmon parr and then slipped it back to its lie. Not once but 4 times as an experiment.

If they feel pain they certainly have a short memory span!

I think like anything else they gather info the longer they live. As an example...small roach are suicidal but larger roach are like ghosts!

Most young creatures are pretty unschooled.
 

barbelboi

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I believe that repeated events can be converted to long-term memory even with fish supposing to have a short attention span or short-term memory.
 

robtherake

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I believe that repeated events can be converted to long-term memory even with fish supposing to have a short attention span or short-term memory.

They clearly learn to avoid being caught, or simply build up a high degree of caution, which has to be acquired behavior given that immature fish are so gullible.

I'm happy to accept - given the scientific explanation - that fish simply cannot feel pain in the same way as us mammals do. They are alarmed when hooked, and that state of alarm results in an attempt to escape, but I don't believe they feel anything other than an insistent pressure pulling them off balance.
 

tigger

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Fish must have a seriously good nervous system in their mouths and lips to be able to feel food etc and a nervous system so sofisticated suggests that they must be able to feel pain.
Imo anyone who doesn't belive they do feel pain are just kidding themselves.

There's also the old chestnut that fish only see in black and white. If that was correct then fish would be drab and have no colour to their fins etc, they wouldn't come into courtship colours to attract a m8 (or m8's, dirty little bu&&ers lol) as many of them do.
 

robtherake

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I disagree, Ian. The senses needed to find food are absolutely necessary for survival, whereas the ability to feel pain is not. Perhaps all that's needed to avoid hurt is a sensation of discomfort, which comes in many forms.

The science says that they lack the requisite apparatus to feel the sensation that we know as pain. They must feel something to be able to avoid bodily injury, but it isn't necessarily the sophisticated and extreme response that a higher nervous system is capable of.
 

thecrow

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I think that the olfactory system is very well developed for the environment they live in and its this that I believe along with eyesight that are their main food finding tools.
 

Graham Elliott 1

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There's no doubt that fish have a survival instinct.

You just have to see a predator in action.

This isn't pain though. Many confuse the two.

I amongst many have had repeat captures in the same day. In particular a roach that had deep gashes from a pike attack, being released and caught 20 minutes later.

Apart from this extreme example many simply being caught twice in a day.
 

robtherake

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I think that the olfactory system is very well developed for the environment they live in and its this that I believe along with eyesight that are their main food finding tools.

I was taken aback to find out quite recently that fish can also taste with the leading edges of their pectoral fins, though it isn't so surprising, in retrospect.
 

barbelboi

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I don't really don't want to get involved with this one again but, for the record, I believe that there is enough scientific evidence to verify that fish do not feel pain. The other way of looking at it is - if you believe that fish feel pain then why do you fish?
 

tigger

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There's no doubt that fish have a survival instinct.

You just have to see a predator in action.

This isn't pain though. Many confuse the two.

I amongst many have had repeat captures in the same day. In particular a roach that had deep gashes from a pike attack, being released and caught 20 minutes later.

Apart from this extreme example many simply being caught twice in a day.

Graham, over the years i've caught rats in traps that have left their feet, legs and tails etc behind, then days, weeks sometimes months later i've caught or shot them to find them fully heeled and fighting fit appart from the lack of limbs. Same with hares, when coarsing with the dogs they've had good runs and caught hares with their back feet only hanging on with some skin and they've been running with their leg bones going into the ground. Mammals can and do survive with horrendus injuries just as fish do but they can certainly feel pain! They can't exactly speak to us to let us know how much pain they're in now can they. At the end of the day shooting, hunting and fishing is what people do and the fact that a lesser form of life feels pain because of it is just unfortunate. It's daft to keep on saying things don't feel pain when we all know full well that they do. Imo the best thing to do is treat the fish we catch as best we can....so we can catch 'em again lol.
 

Cliff Hatton

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Dr Barrie Rickards wrote of catching the same jack-pike 3 times in quick succession; each time he returned it to the water he ran a spinner by it and caught it again!
 

ken more

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Graham, over the years i've caught rats in traps that have left their feet, legs and tails etc behind, then days, weeks sometimes months later i've caught or shot them to find them fully heeled and fighting fit appart from the lack of limbs. Same with hares, when coarsing with the dogs they've had good runs and caught hares with their back feet only hanging on with some skin and they've been running with their leg bones going into the ground. Mammals can and do survive with horrendus injuries just as fish do but they can certainly feel pain! They can't exactly speak to us to let us know how much pain they're in now can they. At the end of the day shooting, hunting and fishing is what people do and the fact that a lesser form of life feels pain because of it is just unfortunate. It's daft to keep on saying things don't feel pain when we all know full well that they do. Imo the best thing to do is treat the fish we catch as best we can....so we can catch 'em again lol.

If this post does not get people thinking about fishing, and other critters that we have a go at, then i don't know what will."Coarsing" with dogs, for me is a horrible thing.
 

tigger

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If this post does not get people thinking about fishing, and other critters that we have a go at, then i don't know what will."Coarsing" with dogs, for me is a horrible thing.


What you've got to remember is that without sporting/hunting activities there would be far less wildlife than there is....that is a fact.
Even David Bellamy did a progarame years ago where he went looking at the wildlife on a pheasant shoot. He actually said it was the best nature reserve he'd ever been to!
The banning of the waterloo cup for example... held in the northwest was a bad mistake as the hares where protected and looked after and on the three day event only a very small number where actually caught by the dogs. Now the numbers of hares will be much lower as people have no reason to protect them the same.
Coursing is a fantastic country sport and the feeling you get watching your dog run a hare is exhilarating.

Angling is much the same as in if no one went angling then who would really give a monkeys about the fish?... and so not only the fish would suffer but the environment also which would affect all other forms of wildlife.
 

Keith M

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I have read the findings of Dr. Alwyne Wheeler (ex keeper of fishes from the Natural History Museum) who was not an angler and who was one of the worlds most respected authorities on the study of fishes. Who basically said that a fishes brain has not developed enough to be able to feel pain as we know it.

He also wrote: (note these are not his exact words)
fish often crush shellfish in their mouths as well as other fish which have spines and which often have sharp gill protectors, plus water insects which often have sharp spines etc., and also sharp spiny plant debris which is laying on the bottom; all of this is regularly taken into their mouths, and mouth lacerations on these fish can be fairly common in their normal feeding habits.
If fish felt pain in their mouths when feeding most of them wouldn't be able to feed at all let alone survive.

I have also read other papers from fish biologists in America (which can be found on the web) which basically say the same thing.

In nearly 60 years of angling I have come across hundreds of examples which seem to indicate to me that these papers appear to be correct. Here's just one simple example, and I'm sure that a lot of other anglers could think of lots of similar examples from their own experiences.

I once caught an 8 inch roach on the GU canal which had all of its tail flesh removed (with part of its spine and its tail completely bare of flesh or skin) and it was still bleeding and looked like a fairly fresh wound, I certainly wouldn't want to go out for a meal if someone had recently stripped the flesh off of one of my legs but it was still feeding (quite happily?} amongst the shoal Lol.
Hardly an indication of fish feeling pain as we know it I would have thought.

As I see it; The problem is that humans have a common tendency of thinking that all creatures must have the same pain receptors as warm blooded animals which have complex brain cortexes, and that is simply not the case; as we are constantly told by experienced biologists.

That's my take on it anyway.

Keith
 
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binka

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I’m still undecided, I think they feel something but more of an instinct to escape rather than actual pain.

I posted these a couple of years ago, it’s a barbel of around 8lb that had been badly ottered and which gave me a three foot twitch and fought in the usual manner, and it went back strong too…





You can’t see it from that angle but its skull was also showing on the top of its head where the flesh had been torn away, similar to the marks on the gill raker where the otter had dug its claws in.

So you have to ask yourself the question.

On a slightly more weird note I took two chublets for zander bait last weekend, each one was despatched quickly and clinically with a strong, sharp blow to the head and checked that there were no signs of life, being as it was hot I placed them both in a bait box full of water.

Upon going for the second of the two baits a couple of hours later I went to cut the tail off and the fish gave an almighty kick as I did so… I almost shat meself!

Full credit to the chair though, I reckon I jumped four feet in a seated position and it survived the landing impeccably!
 
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