Fisheries workshop draws up action plan to manage otter predation

[FishingMagic]

The Angling Trust and the Institute of Fisheries Management held a workshop at Barston Lakes in the Midlands for academics, Defra, the Environment Agency and fisheries and angling groups to assess the impacts of growing numbers of otters on fisheries and to identify actions to minimise them.


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[lutra]

Good to see some in angling have brains and not just big feet.

 

[thecrow]

How is this a plan to manage otters? more fish in rivers great, more food for otter enabling the population to rise even further and what happens then, It appears to me that the angling trust needs to take a long look at itself, it wasn't that long ago that any control on otter numbers (apart from trapping inside a fenced fishery and release outside the fishery) was something they were totally against, this plan doesn't say how the "more fish in rivers" is to be achieved or a time scale to achieve the plan or even what state some rivers in this country will be in by the time this ill conceived plan is achieved if it ever is, it will imo achieve nothing.

 

[lutra]

How is this a plan to manage otters? more fish in rivers great, more food for otter enabling the population to rise even further and what happens then, It appears to me that the angling trust needs to take a long look at itself, it wasn't that long ago that any control on otter numbers (apart from trapping inside a fenced fishery and release outside the fishery) was something they were totally against, this plan doesn't say how the "more fish in rivers" is to be achieved or a time scale to achieve the plan or even what state some rivers in this country will be in by the time this ill conceived plan is achieved if it ever is, it will imo achieve nothing.

Can't help you Crow. Can't even see where you've got this "more fish in rivers" thing from.

 

[thecrow]

Can't help you Crow. Can't even see where you've got this "more fish in rivers" thing from.

Then perhaps you should read the report in its entirety, none so blind I am afraid.


Would action on this not result in more fish in our rivers?

" Environmental pressures on rivers such as pollution, over-abstraction, habitat damage and invasive species were heard to have a major impact on the recruitment of many fish populations and there was consensus that urgent action was needed to tackle these problems"

 

[lutra]

Then perhaps you should read the report in its entirety, none so blind I am afraid.


Would action on this not result in more fish in our rivers?

" Environmental pressures on rivers such as pollution, over-abstraction, habitat damage and invasive species were heard to have a major impact on the recruitment of many fish populations and there was consensus that urgent action was needed to tackle these problems"

So you get from that to more fish in rivers, meaning more otters?

 

[thecrow]

So you get from that to more fish in rivers, meaning more otters?

Oh dear here we go again, are you not aware that prey and predator numbers fluctuate predator numbers depending on the availability of prey?

You have in the past posted that other problems in our rivers are more to blame for the drop in river fish populations than otter so if those problems are addressed according to your thinking it will result in more fish, more prey = more predators, I am afraid that you cant have it both ways.

 

[lutra]

Oh dear here we go again, are you not aware that prey and predator numbers fluctuate predator numbers depending on the availability of prey?

You have in the past posted that other problems in our rivers are more to blame for the drop in river fish populations than otter so if those problems are addressed according to your thinking it will result in more fish, more prey = more predators, I am afraid that you cant have it both ways.

Crow, do you think if your dinner was divided up into 20 smaller portions and you had to run around like a mad man to get it, you would get fatter?

 

[thecrow]

Crow, do you think if your dinner was divided up into 20 smaller portions and you had to run around like a mad man to get it, you would get fatter?

What on earth are you talking about?

I don't understand your way of thinking I really don't, have you any experience at all of small rivers that have been affected by otter? I understand that some rivers up your way are ok at the moment and I hope they stay that way but if you think that's the norm all over the country you are sadly mistaken, unless you are right and the thousands of anglers that have experienced it are wrong but somehow I doubt that's the case.

 

[lutra]

What on earth are you talking about?

I don't understand your way of thinking I really don't, have you any experience at all of small rivers that have been affected by otter? I understand that some rivers up your way are ok at the moment and I hope they stay that way but if you think that's the norm all over the country you are sadly mistaken, unless you are right and the thousands of anglers that have experienced it are wrong but somehow I doubt that's the case.

Don’t think to many will fish more widely across the British isles and in more varied waterways than I have and done.

Should think I make you look like an old caged crow. Lol

Anyway it’s good to see the powers that be are slowly coming around to my way of thinking and seeing the real problems. Many more will follow once they see the light and stop listening to rubbish from bird brains.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

“It has been very positive to get the experts and representatives of angling and fisheries and otter science together to have a rational, informed and balanced debate . . . . . . "

Noting the participants, that statement speaks . . . Volumes . . . .

 

[thecrow]

Don’t think to many will fish more widely across the British isles and in more varied waterways than I have and done.

Should think I make you look like an old caged crow. Lol

That just goes to show how little you know of me, not only have I fished all over the UK but in several countries in Europe. Your name calling has little effect on me other than to confirm my view that when there is no answer some resort to it, its very childish.

Maybe you might like to read this quote by Sun Tzu? Never underestimate someone you don't know.


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

 

[thecrow]

“It has been very positive to get the experts and representatives of angling and fisheries and otter science together to have a rational, informed and balanced debate . . . . . . "

Noting the participants, that statement speaks . . . Volumes . . . .

I agree its possibly a start but actually reminds me of this

 

[lutra]

That just goes to show how little you know of me, not only have I fished all over the UK but in several countries in Europe. Your name calling has little effect on me other than to confirm my view that when there is no answer some resort to it, its very childish.

Maybe you might like to read this quote by Sun Tzu? Never underestimate someone you don't know.


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

That works both ways crow and you were the one that started questioning experience.

 

[thecrow]

That works both ways crow and you were the one that started questioning experience.

Questions that you have no answers for, I imagined from your posts that you would have answers to all that ails angling obviously I was mistaken. Have you realised yet that more prey = more predators? it works with none carnivores as well no food less creatures that feed on it, it really is a simple concept to grasp.

 

[lutra]

Questions that you have no answers for, I imagined from your posts that you would have answers to all that ails angling obviously I was mistaken. Have you realised yet that more prey = more predators? it works with none carnivores as well no food less creatures that feed on it, it really is a simple concept to grasp.

But not all, as some are territorial, like Lutra lutra.

“ In some areas, they may have reached a maximum population.”

But yes I agree if you keep pilling the food up out in the wilds and don’t protect it, it’s likely something will take a liking to it. (What idiots would do that?) Maybe even lutra lutra, just not plagues of them.

 

[thecrow]

But not all, as some are territorial, like Lutra lutra.

“ In some areas, they may have reached a maximum population.”

But yes I agree if you keep pilling the food up out in the wilds and don’t protect it, it’s likely something will take a liking to it. (What idiots would do that?) Maybe even lutra lutra, just not plagues of them.

I cant think of any predator that wont try to protect the prey they rely on and I agree that otter are very territorial as are most mammals or birds when it comes to mating or keeping the females they have control over.

Its one of the reasons why I don't believe that the rehabilitation of orphaned or injured otter should be released into the wild, those releasing them need to be so sure its not being done in another otter territory or they could just end up injured again or dead which imo is not right just to make someone feel good about what they are doing.

Its difficult to know whether in some area's they have reached saturation point, even the experts on otter cannot agree on numbers, they may have reached saturation point in some area's due to the availability of food but that's not to say that if the food supply increases that otter numbers wont increase.

In predator and prey relationships there always needs to be a larger number of prey than predators, in some small rivers (one I know intimately) that has become reversed to such an extent that prey can no longer be found in large stretches of it, I don't dislike otter far from it but what I don't like is damage that has been done in a headlong rush to increasing otter numbers that were recovering nicely on their own before the ill thought out reintroductions.

 

[lutra]

I cant think of any predator that wont try to protect the prey they rely on and I agree that otter are very territorial as are most mammals or birds when it comes to mating or keeping the females they have control over.

But their is a big difference in the way many behave. Wolves are happy in packs, lutra lutra won't even tolerate their only young in their territory once they reach an age that they can fend for themselves.

Its one of the reasons why I don't believe that the rehabilitation of orphaned or injured otter should be released into the wild, those releasing them need to be so sure its not being done in another otter territory or they could just end up injured again or dead which imo is not right just to make someone feel good about what they are doing.

Don't disagree.

Its difficult to know whether in some area's they have reached saturation point, even the experts on otter cannot agree on numbers, they may have reached saturation point in some area's due to the availability of food but that's not to say that if the food supply increases that otter numbers wont increase.

While I do know that otters will abandon a territory in hard times and move on, I know of no evidence that they will tolerate other otters in their territory even in good times. So I don't believe can rise much in times of plenty.

In predator and prey relationships there always needs to be a larger number of prey than predators, in some small rivers (one I know intimately) that has become reversed to such an extent that prey can no longer be found in large stretches of it, I don't dislike otter far from it but what I don't like is damage that has been done in a headlong rush to increasing otter numbers that were recovering nicely on their own before the ill thought out reintroductions.

I know many small rivers that have otters that are fine, but they don't have and never did have big fish and or problems with natural recruitment. I think things like barbel in small rivers always would have been an easy target for otters and probably don't belong naturally in many of them and only in some because they are a tributary of a bigger river with them in it.

 

[thecrow]

But their is a big difference in the way many behave. Wolves are happy in packs, lutra lutra won't even tolerate their only young in their territory once they reach an age that they can fend for themselves.

Wolves and other animals stay together for protection and to be able to bring large prey down between them.

Don't disagree.

I'm glad we agree on something.

While I do know that otters will abandon a territory in hard times and move on, I know of no evidence that they will tolerate other otters in their territory even in good times. So I don't believe can rise much in times of plenty.

Agreed they wont tolerate others in their territory but on abandoned stretches that this plan aim to revive there will be room for more on those stretches and the cycle will start again.

I know many small rivers that have otters that are fine, but they don't have and never did have big fish and or problems with natural recruitment. I think things like barbel in small rivers always would have been an easy target for otters and probably don't belong naturally in many of them and only in some because they are a tributary of a bigger river with them in it.

You may know of rivers that are fine and for that we should be grateful, perhaps they are historic populations or the river hasn't suffered any of the other problems that those I know of that are just the opposite, although before the otter appeared they were fine, coincidence?

 

[lutra]

You may know of rivers that are fine and for that we should be grateful, perhaps they are historic populations or the river hasn't suffered any of the other problems that those I know of that are just the opposite, although before the otter appeared they were fine, coincidence?

No I shouldn't think it is a coincidence. It's very likely otters have eaten fish and helped highlight the problems. It's just you think we should take the battery out of the smoke alarm and I think we should be trying to get the fire put out......