It’s 2019: Let’s Have a Ban on Trebles.

nottskev

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I never use barbless hooks for any fish and would certainly not use them for pike.
Personally I think barbless hooks should be banned in advance of trebles!

This is an interesting topic, and I never feel we've got to the bottom of it. I've got both types of hooks in my box, and no absolutely set idea on their use. What's the argument against barbless?

Let me just add one angle. I use barbless for catching numbers of small/medium size fish - they're unhooked so easily, without wriggling the hook around etc. Yesterday I stopped by a lake where a mate was fishing, and he said have a go with his gear while he stretched his legs. He was using barbed hooks, a fine wire 20, and I really noticed that the fish I caught were out of the water and in my hand longer, because it took longer to unhook them, and it needed a lot more wriggling and forcing to remove the barbed hook. Why are barbless worse in that context?

(Sorry for getting off the treble hook topic)
 

tigger

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This is an interesting topic, and I never feel we've got to the bottom of it. I've got both types of hooks in my box, and no absolutely set idea on their use. What's the argument against barbless?

Let me just add one angle. I use barbless for catching numbers of small/medium size fish - they're unhooked so easily, without wriggling the hook around etc. Yesterday I stopped by a lake where a mate was fishing, and he said have a go with his gear while he stretched his legs. He was using barbed hooks, a fine wire 20, and I really noticed that the fish I caught were out of the water and in my hand longer, because it took longer to unhook them, and it needed a lot more wriggling and forcing to remove the barbed hook. Why are barbless worse in that context?

(Sorry for getting off the treble hook topic)


As you say Kev, were off the topic but these things happen i'm afraid lol.
The difference between a barbed hook and a barbless one is that when a barbed hook is pulled into the flesh it stays fixed and the tip of it doesn't rotate about the same as a non barbed hook. The non barbed hook penetrates a lot deeer also and because of the lack of even a very small barb it moves about at the tip and creates a crater under the flesh. After a while the fishes mouths can appear sunken inwards because of this. You might say how do I know this, but it's quite obvious when you visit a barbless only water.
Also after being hooked on a number of occassions myself i've felt the difference.
I don't think anglers will ever agree on this matter and the only way to prove it one way or the other would be to have some lab rat type fish and keep catching them to see the resullts.
I can remove a barbed hook in exactly the same time as a barbless.
 

Cliff Hatton

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Fishface: the '22' was caught on a flying'C' while salmon-spinning late March. We no longer spin for salmon on this stretch - fly only.
 

Philip

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I notice your 22 is lying on the ground, not the unhooking mat.

Are you going to say there was no risk as the grass was soft and wet and so you made the decision it was ok for the Pike ?

I’d like to be left to make the same decision about trebles myself too thanks.

Leave it alone. Your not helping angling with this. Your undermining it.
 

Jeff Woodhouse

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the '22' was caught on a flying'C' while salmon-spinning late March.
Unlike Philip (above) I won't criticise the non use of an unhooking mat.

However, late March you say, Cliff - clearly this was a female and doesn't look like she's yet spawned. Whether she had or not, this could be a fish in a critical condition and maybe that was reason she succumbed. It may not have had anything to do with you hooking her even, just nature was maybe too much for her. It happens.

If this is true then it had nothing to do with trebles either. Maybe we will never know and if it is true, it might say something about the close season for pike since many will be in a critical condition from January onwards, perhaps?


The difference between a barbed hook and a barbless one is that when a barbed hook is pulled into the flesh it stays fixed and the tip of it doesn't rotate about the same as a non barbed hook. The non barbed hook penetrates a lot deeper also and because of the lack of even a very small barb it moves about at the tip and creates a crater under the flesh. After a while the fishes mouths can appear sunken inwards because of this. You might say how do I know this, but it's quite obvious when you visit a barbless only water.
Also after being hooked on a number of occasions myself I've felt the difference.
I don't think anglers will ever agree on this matter and the only way to prove it one way or the other would be to have some lab rat type fish and keep catching them to see the results.
I would contest a lot of what you've said there, Tigger, but you are welcome to an opinion. My reason for disagreeing is that 20 year ago almost, a friend (he was a shareholder in a lake rented to a club) asked me why a lot of the carp had deformed mouths, ripped top lips etc. and the club who rented the lake believed it was the use of boilies. They had a rule of no hair rigs or boilies and barbless only, but with a few exercises I felt that I proved it was neither boilies on hair-rigs nor barbless hooks (in the close season, only the shareholders and their guests could fish and rules didn't apply).

I had an inkling and later felt even more sure that the tears in the mouth were from the hooks being deep in the mouth and the line coming out of the 'scissors', as we call them. With force from the pole or rod, the line cut through the lip quite easily (I stress, I didn't try this). The cause I felt and later witnessed was the match anglers using very strong elastics and virtually hauling the fish in rather than playing them. This was to accumulate a bigger match weight and this also was the cause of the twisted mouths with, probably as you say, the hook twisting around in the hook hold, but that could well have happened whether it was a barbed or barbless hook.

My evidence is like yours, purely anecdotal and proves nothing either way. It did help when the match anglers were advised to use weaker elastics and play the fish a little more. After a while, mouth damage did seem to reduce, but it's still hard to prove one way or t'other.
 
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Philip

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Unlike Philip (above) I won't criticise the non use of an unhooking mat.

I didnt criticise the non use of an unhooking mat Jeff. You need to read it again. I even specifically worded it to avoid that.

The point was it was the choice of the angler whether he used one or not. I'd like the same choice for trebles without a fellow angler banning them for me & taking us one more step closer to the inevitable end state of someone banning hooks altogether.
 

Cliff Hatton

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I notice your 22 is lying on the ground, not the unhooking mat.

Are you going to say there was no risk as the grass was soft and wet and so you made the decision it was ok for the Pike ?

I’d like to be left to make the same decision about trebles myself too thanks.

Leave it alone. Your not helping angling with this. Your undermining it.

The fish in the photograph is not the '22'.
 

Cliff Hatton

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I'm glad this conversation has broadened to include the question of 'barbed or barbless'. Anyone who has had the truly diabolical experience of trying to remove a 'deeply-seated' snap-tackle will know how barbs make the job far, far more difficult and distressing for both angler and angled: barbless come out far more easily. In the absence of legislation re trebles per se and anglers' reluctance to drop their use, I'd certainly be happier with barbless or crushed-barb trebles.
I shall be stepping-up my use of singles but will surely use a snap tackle from time to time. I would, however, shed no tears if the latter was outlawed.
 
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tigger

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I'd prefer to use single hooks with small barbs myself.
I've found trebles to mess up perches mouths also and when the fish has taken the treble square on and all three hooks are in it's mouth it is a pain in the harris to get them out without damaging it's mouth....much better with a single hook. Also, two trebles on lures is often a struggle to unhook and very often one of the trebles will finnish up stuck on the outside of the fishes mouth/face.
I don't like trebles, especially two on a rig or lure, I don't like barbless hooks either.
I've caught loads of fish trailing line from a barbless hook that has been fixed firmly in the fishs mouth, often the hooks have gone round on themselves and would never come out. On a number of those fish had got infection round the hook and where a right mess.
 

Philip

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The fish in the photograph is not the '22'.

Ah I see you want to play silly beggers then Cliff....fine, so ...


I notice your Pike is lying on the ground, not the unhooking mat.

Are you going to say there was no risk as the grass was soft and wet and so you made the decision it was ok for the Pike ?

I’d like to be left to make the same decision about trebles myself too thanks.

Leave it alone. Your not helping angling with this. Your undermining it.
 

Jeff Woodhouse

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I didnt criticise the non use of an unhooking mat Jeff. You need to read it again. I even specifically worded it to avoid that.
I have read it again and I accept that you didn't intend to criticize, but I still read it as that. I.e. questioning that Cliff thought it was fine to use the grass and not to use an unhooking mat.

Back on topic: I'd like to know more about using circle hooks or in fact, doubles such as these (with the hooking barb crushed down of course ...

double hooks.jpg
 

Cliff Hatton

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Philip...I don't play 'silly beggers' [sic]
I would agree that I might actually be undermining the angler's cause with this topic but it was raised out of concern for fish-welfare: I think it worth the risk. Carry on piking, Philip!
 
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sam vimes

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I couldn't really care if trebles were banned. However, I'm pretty uncomfortable with anglers suggesting they should be. If the logic of doing so is expanded out into other spheres, do people that have nasty accidents in cars (that injure themselves, or others) seriously call for cars to be banned? I dare say that some will, but no one gives them any credence.

I really dislike the whole idea of lowest common denominator and "what if?" rules and legislation. It's the same mindset that sees coffee cups labelled with "may contain hot liquid" notices.

I can well understand someone making a personal call to not use trebles, barbed hooks, livebaits etc, but there's no need whatsoever to legislate. It should be a personal decision. Those that make that decision should leave others the freedom to make their own.
 

tigger

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If Those that make that decision should leave others the freedom to make their own.

Doesn't work like that thought does it Chris.....

I'd like to keep pit bulls but can't because some knob end in the government says they're dangerous!
 

sam vimes

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Doesn't work like that thought does it Chris.....

I'd like to keep pit bulls but can't because some knob end in the government says they're dangerous!

That's not what I meant. I meant that the law should be left as it is and individual anglers make their own choices without trying to impose their will on anyone else. If the powers that be suddenly decide to legislate, so be it, but no one should be lobbying for fresh legislation.It's simply not needed.

I'm not convinced by the dangerous dogs act, but pit bulls and their legality is a rather different proposition to the banning of treble hooks.
 

Philip

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Philip...I don't play 'silly beggers' [sic]
I would agree that I might actually be undermining the angler's cause with this topic but it was raised out of concern for fish-welfare: I think it worth the risk. Carry on piking, Philip!

Cliff, if you write an article, make specific mention of a 22lb Pike, post a photo in the middle that looks like a 22lb Pike then I suspect allot of people will assume thats the 22lber your talking about !!!! ...But ok, if you dont like the term silly beggers then I retract that. Sorry. I do think however you where being obtuse !

As for the rest, your of course entitled to your opinion but I would suggest that as well as what you believe you also need to consider your position as editor in chief of a popular public angling web site & as such will have more influence than many.

I have already said what I think about trebles. I don’t think your helping angling even if your hearts in the right place.
 

fishface1

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Cliff,

Presumably, by late March you mean outside of the normal river coarse fishing season?

And therefor, being a responsible angler, I guess you didn't actually weigh the fish and put it straight back with the minimum of stress.
 

tigger

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That's not what I meant. I meant that the law should be left as it is and individual anglers make their own choices without trying to impose their will on anyone else. If the powers that be suddenly decide to legislate, so be it, but no one should be lobbying for fresh legislation.It's simply not needed.

I'm not convinced by the dangerous dogs act, but pit bulls and their legality is a rather different proposition to the banning of treble hooks.


Same principle though, people used to be able to choose to keep a dog of their choice but had their choice removed.
The same could be said of anything which has been deemed dangerous, or cruel, etc etc and banned.
 

sam vimes

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Same principle though, people used to be able to choose to keep a dog of their choice but had their choice removed.
The same could be said of anything which has been deemed dangerous, or cruel, etc etc and banned.

I don't disagree, but it has no relation to what I was saying. You've misinterpreted what I said initially for us to get to this point.
 

neil1970

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What an absolutely ridiculous article :eek:mg::eek:mg::eek:mg::eek:mg::eek:mg::eek:mg::eek:mg::eek:mg::eek:mg::eek:mg:
Truly pathetic.
 
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