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  1. #21
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    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Jacobs View Post
    I have spent close to 5 hours (over several days) re-reading threads on this topic both on here and on the old Fishingwharehouse site and to be perfectly honest, and looking from a legal standpoint, I see absolutely no concrete evidence to support the propositions from, either side.

    Personally, I am not convinced but would not, and do not,
    suggest that either party are not being anything short of honest as they view the situation.

    There is a lot of circumstantial evidence but little or
    no demonstrable evidence, the type of which one would
    rely upon in Court. This being due to the fact that it is
    a deduction based on the facts, but in this case those facts are simply not demonstrable.

    There is a lot of character evidence, from both sides,
    which while that attempts to prove a person's actions has
    no weight unless supported by phyical evidence which in
    this case appears to have been lost.

    In addition there seems to be a host of anecdotal evidence which goes to explain an action, but on its own cannot be given guaranteed credence, as it can be "cherry picked" to support a proposition.

    It seems that this is the classic case of "he said, she said" and while it is laudible that friends have continued to fight what they see, or deem to be, an injustice until and unless evidence of a legal standard is offered there can be no solution.

    Given that one party are not regular contributors to FM, and therefore do not see these threads, then maybe the best way forward it to just let this prickly topic rest?
    Hi, Peter.

    From a 'legal standpoint' as you put it, there is copious, GLARING, 'concrete evidence' to support our contention and I'm rather disappointed that you haven't picked this up. What's not 'concrete', Peter, about the Moor Hall Angling Club's minutes which prove that Martin was in Hornchurch, Essex when Selman and the Carp Society say he was in Canada catching giant carp?

    What's not 'concrete' about the unanimous testimony of an entire club committee stating that the original photos showed only typical English lake surroundings and positively NO mountains or power stations?

    And - perhaps above all - what's not 'concrete' about the fact that dare not speak its name apparently? That of Selman's unwavering, 25 year, 'one million per cent' contention that the fish were caught from a lake in British Columbia which, overnight, was astonishingly changed to 'one million per cent' Lennox power station?

    From a 'legal standpoint', Peter, these 3 points alone would have Selman and the Carp Society eating very humble pie.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    As I stated Cliff, neither side appear to have concrete physical physical evidence that would stand up to the detailed scrutiny in a court of law.

    For example, have the Minutes from that Meeting been published, and acredited by sworn witness statements?

    Using dint of repetition, or emphasis by emboldening text does not make "factual evidence"

    Statements by (un-named) committee members are also pointless unless supported by the actual photos that they allegedly have seen . . . . you see, the only key to a final ending to this sorry saga is to publish the actual photographs.

    The same burden of proof is applicable to both sides of this dispute and had the other side been party to this thread then I'd have been asking them the same questions.

    Just a thought regarding so called "expert witness" statements a provided in Eddie's post above . . . . comments such as, "Tough to say" or "it may be" or later on, "I'm pretty sure" actually raise far more questions than they provide answers for . . . .

    Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers.

    Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary. ~

    Patrick F. McManus






  3. #23
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    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    Thanks, Peter.

    Official verdicts are routinely reached in our legal system on the basis of evidence; physical proof is not needed. Indeed, people have been jailed for murder without a body being found. Like I said, the evidence against the Carp Society is damning.

    Yes, the minutes (which Eddie published here) will have been approved and signed. Please accept that each and every one of the committee and others who made statements here on FM are honest people.

    Any comment, Peter, on the 25 Year Miracle? What do you have to say about this?
    Last edited by Cliff Hatton; 15-10-2019 at 12:01.

  4. #24

    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    Quote Originally Posted by eddiebenham View Post
    .Well I think I can answer that - They have NO PROOF that the fish were caught in Canada.
    This is what makes this whole saga so laughable, they may well have no proof, but those Gay supporters mentioned DO have proof, yet choose to keep it to themselves rather than publish it and clear the guys tarnished reputation.....thats just weird in my humble opinion.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    Quote Originally Posted by stevejay View Post
    This is what makes this whole saga so laughable, they may well have no proof, but those Gay supporters mentioned DO have proof, yet choose to keep it to themselves rather than publish it and clear the guys tarnished reputation.....thats just weird in my humble opinion.
    Cheers, Steve.

    None of us 'Gay supporters' have claimed to have proof of where the fish were caught; we do, however, have proof that they weren't caught in Canada and that the Carp Society stitched-up a fine and honest angler.

  6. #26
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    Aug 2015
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    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    Quote Originally Posted by stevejay View Post
    This is what makes this whole saga so laughable, they may well have no proof, but those Gay supporters mentioned DO have proof, yet choose to keep it to themselves rather than publish it and clear the guys tarnished reputation.....thats just weird in my humble opinion.
    Hi Steve...............What an odd thing to say. What makes you think that "those Gay supporters mentioned DO have proof"
    I can assure you 100% (no such thing as 1 million per cent) that if Cliff or I had PROOF we would have provided it years ago in order to restore Martins good name and reputation. What we have provided is good evidence to show that the fish were not caught in Canada. We DO NOT have PROOF that they were caught in the UK even though we know they were.

  7. #27
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    Aug 2015
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    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Jacobs View Post
    Personally, I am not convinced but would not, and do not,
    suggest that either party are not being anything short of honest as they view the situation.
    Hi Peter...................Interesting post. I wonder if you can give me your 'legal' opinion on which of the following options might be accepted as good evidence (not proof) in a Court of Law. This is with regard to the photo shown to 13 people including Robin Monday.

    1. It is my understanding that the part of the picture blocked out did indeed show a Canadian Mountain Landscape. 1 million per cent.

    2. Bits of the Power Station are missed off so as not to reveal the location. 1 million per cent.

    3. There was a fence in the background with a notice on it.

    4. All three versions are true.

    Numbers 1 & 2 are from Selman but 25 years apart.
    Number 3 Is from myself, Cliff Hatton, Robin Monday and the Moor Hall Committee members on a Tuesday evening following which Martin showed the photo to Robin Monday prior to fishing with him the following weekend.
    Again, which option. Also from Selman.

    1.It is fact that when Martin caught those fish he was on holiday in British Columbia. There is fantastic big carp fishing in BC.

    2.The fish were caught from a warm water outlet from Lennox Power Station. Ontario is a noted carp area, British Columbia isn't.

    3. Both are untrue as all those who saw the photo, including Robin Monday never saw either of those options only a fence with a sign on it.

  8. #28
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    Aug 2015
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    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Jacobs View Post
    Just a thought regarding so called "expert witness" statements a provided in Eddie's post above . . . . comments such as, "Tough to say" or "it may be" or later on, "I'm pretty sure" actually raise far more questions than they provide answers for .
    Hi Peter................Selman had stated that Martin should have blocked out the grass/plants in the photo as they did not grow in the UK. I was not trying to specifically identify them but trying to establish that he was not correct and that they did grow in the UK. The considered opinion, tough to say or not, of the Biologist at Queens University was that both the weed and the grass were common across the UK.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Jacobs View Post
    Statements by (un-named) committee members
    Hi Peter................Just to put the record straight ALL the Committee members were named by me after seeking their approval, apart from John Amos who had since passed away.

    Here's their names again; Eddie Benham, Mac McCarthy, Mike Tilbrook, Gynne Davis, Alan Blackford, Frank Payne, John Reed, John Amos., and of course Martin Gay.
    These men were all asked what they saw in the photos and their testimonies were subsequently posted by me on a previous thread.
    No Mountains, No Power Station, just a fence with a notice board. Apart that is from Martin and a bloody great Carp.

  10. #30

    Default Re: The 50lber – Let’s see the doubters’ ‘proof’!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Hatton View Post
    Phil: Eddie and I are dragging the good name of Martin Gay OUT of the mud...the mud so scurrilously created and stirred by the Carp Society for nearly 30 years.
    Your consistently dredging up a story his wife wants to go away on a public forum for which you are the editor & therefore providing the platform for the doubters to drag his name through the mud.

    I note you side stepped the important bit again.

    is Yvonne aware this is happening ?


    Quote Originally Posted by eddiebenham View Post
    just a fence with a notice board. Apart that is from Martin and a bloody great Carp.

    And a stack of multicoloured Kayaks. How can you possibly continue to omit this rather major item on such a consistent basis.
    Last edited by Philip; 15-10-2019 at 20:04.

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